Geez, Kelly…you just put into words what I’ve been thinking for the past week. It’s practically identical to the plan that I’m going to be giving a go in the near future (with slight modifications). I guess great minds think alike, eh?
I’ve lost 60 lbs of fat and gained 30 lbs of muscle in the past two years. At 46 I never thought it could happen. I used the basic T-mag info and supplements. Mostly Tribex, MD6, the old Androsol and MAG-10. I think the Hatfield Zig-Zag and the diet info found on T-Mag are pretty much the same.
My body stores fat so well that I’ve never really gone for a full bulk feeding cycle. I mostly manipulate my protein and carbs. Maybe it’s because when I started I was a lifting newbie and fat. All I know is eating clean and working out daily it happens.
Hey Eric,
That’s cool! Let me know what kind’ve results you get with your plan. I would guess during the low cal/low carb portion your diet is resembling Poliquins with carbs coming only from fibrous veggies sources?
Also I forgot to mention that one could use a thermo for the a.m. cardio and HIT for extra metabolic stimulation and fat loss and by the time the evening workout and carb loading/high calories phase begins the thermo would be out of the system which would eliminate any worry about insulin sensitivity when on a thermo.
K to the Bizzo-It’s still at the drawing board, but that’s definitely along the lines of what I’ll be dealing with. A few details:
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I’ll definitely be going with Poliquin-type eating during the day. Incidentally, I plan on experimenting with increasing my sodium intake with these feedings to help with the loss of pump that often accompanies low carbs (for me, at least).
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I’m still up in the air about how to arrange calories. I’ll be sticking with two P&C meals mid/immediately post training and one hour later. I’ll stick with P&F before bed, but maybe allow myself a little extra cottage cheese. The one-hour post-training meal will probably just be a bunch of oatmeal and protein powder…maybe some chicken and yams. I’ll probably shoot for 100g and 50-55g protein here. As for the rest of the day, I’m thinking that I’ll just go with 5-6 oz. meat, small amounts of veggies, and 1-2 tsp healthy oil or fish oil softgels every 2-2.5 hours. You think this will be enough to keep the fat burning kicking?
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Rest days will be all P&F.
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For training, I’m going to try a little something different. I’ll be doing HIIT (sprints or jumping rope) or the low intensity stuff (walking) on 4-5 days per week (2 HIIT) upon rising. I’ll be taking PS before and after these sessions, along with BCAAs and glutamine. Here’s the kicker, though: as I reviewed my training logs of the past year or two, I noticed that I’ve made better progress when I trained with the same volume, but more frequency and shorter sessions. As such, I’ll be training with five 30-minute sessions per week (Chest/Delts, Hip dominant, Arms, Quad dominant, and Back, with ancillaries-rotator cuff, calves, abs, neck, and forearms-trained with 2-3 sets after the major ones).
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I won’t do any HIIT on days that I train legs. I plan to make sure that these days are the ones when I train at 1 or 2 PM. After my two P&C meals, I’ll go back to P&F for the rest of the day.
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I’m really excited about keeping my steak, eggs, salad, and fish oil at breakfast; I just can’t wake up with lots of carbs.
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I was thinking about the fact that I’ll be able to use MD6 in the morning as well. Kick ass!
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I’ll be using 600-900mg ALA around my carb meals.
Whatcha’ think so far?
E-C, thanks for outlining your plan. I really think that many will benefit from such a detailed explanation.
It looks like a solid protocol to me. E-C, where will your calories be? Slightly hypo- or hyper-caloric?
As for the carbs and protein after training, I think you might benefit from a four to one ratio of carbs to protein. I’ll get back to you on that, but I was speaking with a fella from one of the labs here at UT about a previous study. He was talking about Endurox and how maximal protein synthesis stimulation was achieved with a 4:1 ratio. Don’t jump on me just yet, he didn’t seem totally positive of the numbers, so I’ll get back.
Kelly: More great info from my dog, Bags! Kelly, I don’t remember if you recall a thread not too long ago about high-intensity cardio followed by low-intensity cardio for maximal fat burning. I posted an article/post from Lyle McDonald. I only bring this up because Lyle was talking about how, when trying to lose stubborn bodyfat, one should not take ephedrine prior to morning cardio. I’ll bump it up and see if anyone else bites. It’s a pretty interesting protocol anyway.
T-Rock,
Still not sure about the calorie figures. It’s defintely going to a trial and error issue of how low to take them during the day and how high to take them after the training session.
To be honest, I don’t like Lyle’s suggestion at all. Wait 1-2 hours after taking your caffeine upon rising, then do an hour of cardio, then wait another 60-90 minutes before eating anything? Sounds like 4-4.5 hours of fasting upon rising after an 8-10 hour overnight fast. Call me crazy, but mixing that with cardio is a sure fire way to get scrawny really quickly. Then again, I could just be prejudiced against Lyle because he overdid the bromo promotion so blatantly.
For me, this is going to be an issue of gaining size in a gradual way while working to keep my insulin sensitivity up. I’ve had to bust my ass to get to 7.5-8%; given that I still don’t look like it because of where I store my fat, I want to stay under 10% from now on.
What’s “poliquin type eating”?
E-C, thanks for the feedback. My bad for not being real clear on that.
The first time I read it, E-C, that’s exactly what I thought, and I know that that’s not how I would approach it, as far as nutrition. As if a hypocaloric state and an 8-hour fast aren’t catabolic enough…throw on top of that another five hours of not eating anything that will have an impact on cortisol. You’re bound for disaster.
I guess I was questioning the actual exercise program than anything else. And, also, the supplement regime involved, particularly the “no ephedrine” protocol.
Like I said, E-C, I think your diet and cardio looks solid, like a rock. What kind of weight training program will you be implementing?
at the same time = simultaneously
One can not lose fat and build muscle simultaneously. Your body is either anabolic or catabolic.
plain and simple truth
Now, if we want to loosen our terms up, so that we can build over a period of a week, and then lose over a period of week, while minimizing fat gain or LBM loss, I am with you.
But, catabolic and anabolic do NOT occur at the same time.
Vain
One - Do a search for “Poloquin Diet Support Group” and you should find some good stuff. As for how to set stuff up for a newbie - basically follow any of hte complete diet and exercise programs here that are not extreme and you’ll be off to a good start.
Vain - Point well taken. Obviously at any one point in time, you have to be either anabolic, catabolic, or in homeostasis. The issue at hand here though is whether or not one can gain LBM and lose fat during the same training macrocycle. I think we are too quick to say that this is not possible and one should focus on mass gain or fat loss. So, while I agree with your exact point, I think it is a bit off the mark for this discussion, unless you’d like to expand more.
Timbo - I’ll be posting a full layout of my plan once I get it nailed down and the contest goes live.
WOW, huge thread. I believe the best conditional reply to the “can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time” is who? Overfat and undertrained can quite easily and do. Nearing optimum it becomes more and more difficult. This question could also be phrased, can I get stronger and get more muscular at the same time? same answer. Will one compliment the other? Yes, in a balanced and peiodized approach. I can’t remember where, but I remember reading recently about the myth of productivity and multitasking. My answer to anyone that asks, irrespective of what I think they should do first (fat loss, muscle gain, strength gain, (teach them to fish) is, ‘which area, when improved, will contribute to a higher quality of life moreso than the others as you are right now?’
Jay: I’m looking forward to seeing your map to success, brutha. I’ll be more than happy to share mine too, but it’s definitely not going to strike anyone as being revlutionary:-)
JP: That’s an interesting and relevant way to look at things. I’m just going to throw this out there, but it’s not meant to be nit-picky or purposely contradictory. I definitely think that one can become more muscular and stronger at the same time. I emphasize the latter purposefully.
When I think of Maximum Muscularity, I don’t think, necessarily, of adding more mass. Rather, my definition consists of achieving a ripped physique that is already well-muscled. Maximum Muscularity is the ultimate in muscular definition. Thus, this would involve a cutting diet where one breaks out the chisel and works with already-established granite to refine the physique.
Many have provided testimony that strength levels have increased during a phase of dieting. Thus, the goals of increasing strength and achieving Maximum Muscularity are often recognized.
Just another issue that kind of gets under my skin. When overfat and obese individuals assign absolute numbers to pounds of fat lost and pounds of muscle gained, simultaneously over the course of a dieting phase, particularly when initially getting involved in resistance training and proper nutrition. The latter point is in and of itself something else to be addressed. My point is that there’s no way that this population can say exactly the change in body composition. We all know that the methods used to assess body composition are not always perfect, but the inaccuracy exponentially increases when you move to the obese end of the spectrum.
I’m not at all trying to take away from the fantastic accomplishments of these individuals. Actually, I don’t know why I even typed that. Jealousy, perhaps:-)
Wow. Now this is some high quality information.
I would second TT, Timbo, Jason, and Kelly: take advantage of the timing issues.
I had success with such a plan last summer. Basically a t-dawg; only with one additional p/c meal post training. The only thing I tweaked for better fat loss was by ditching the additional p/c meal (then p/f of course) and opting for a crapload of carbs immediatly post workout. These were my only carbs throughout the week. Indeed, my strength increased and I continued to lean out all while actually ingesting more carbs. Only at the right times.
Timbo, to answer your question regarding ephedra I read the excerpt from Lyle McD I am not sure what Lyle means when he says that ephedrine “lowers the catecholamine response”. Obviously, ephedrine increases the levels of the catecholamines epinephrine and nor-epinephrine. Perhaps what he means is with chronic use it takes a higher catecholamine level to get a fat mobilizing response in the muscle? This makes sense due to the body’s feedback mechanisms but also you have to take into consideration that natural catecholamine levels fall the longer one diets so ephedrine may be able to make up for this natural drop in catecholamine levels on a diet. Also it is obvous that people lose more fat when using ephedra so I’m not sure if people should avoid it just because of one study. Personally though I shy away from the stuff for other reasons
Bryan Haycock’s HST was featured in T-mag issue #217. It is very interesting to read some of the results with this training protocol on the message board on his site. If true, these are some very impressive results by supposedly natural individuals. Avoids Roids, Restless and some others I don’t remember have had good results with HST. To be fair Nate Dogg and some others didn’t like it. Am planning to start the program Monday w/a hypocaloric Massive eating approach.
-LW
Kelly, thanks, bro, for the response. Your line of logic was exactly what I was thinking, as well.
What was particularly interesting/puzzling to me was when Lyle said: [quote]I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that’s the reason for avoiding it.[/quote]
I would like to see that research. As yourself, Kel, I steer clear of the ephedrine as well.
Regardless, I’m getting away from the present topic, and I don’t mean to do so.
Back to the topic at hand, I don’t recall much discussion on nutrient partioning. I think this would have a marked impact on fat loss and lean gain. I think cardio (i.e. HIIT) is a very potent nutrient partitioning agent, and I’m sure that others can add supplements that are purported or proven to do so (i.e. ALA, fish oils, etc.).
Eric -
Regarding your plan a few posts back, you’ll have a P+C meal during/immediately after training, which I would assume to be something along the lines of Surge, and an hour later you would be having approximately 2:1 carbs/protein meal consisting of yams/chicken, etc. This would total approximately 150g carbs and 75g protein, or about 900 calories following training. Now depending on your weight, for some this would almost be half the total caloric intake for the day, correct? I’m between 2100-2300 calories a day to drop a few more lbs of fat, so that breakdown is quite close to half for me. So the way it would work is during the rest of the day have P+F meals as normal (i.e. flax oil, fish oils and Grow!) for fat loss and during the anabolic window following training, strategic P+C meals for muscle recovery and to prevent catabolism - even induce muscle growth. Other days clearly would have very little carb intake and hypocaloric intake for fat burning effects. Following this plan, it would seem possible that while on a cutting cycle, you could theoretically maintain BW, but lose a great amount of fat and increase muscle mass at the same time.
After reading all of this great info, I think that additional P+C meal 1 hour post training is what I’ve been missing out on, but please feel free to clear up any discrepencies I may have caused.
-Hogan-
I by no means intended to come across as saying that there is no way that one can lose fat, gain muscular weight, and get stronger all at once. Rather, that the gains associated with a triple goal approach, if judged individually, would be less than the totals one could put up had they focused their approach to one and only one. YES, a person can and will get stronger on a hypertrophy phase. What would be tough to do is to prove any human event and call it scientific proof. Identical twins would be closer than any two others. Perhaps identical siblings (7) would be better, 3 dedicated to one of the three approaches, 3 more trying 2 approaches, with the seventh trying all three. Then comparing the relative success of each of the three components. Then, however, someone could look at the approach with a “well I wouldla done…” What is cool is that there is spillover. Funnything happened to me on the way to a cutting cycle.
Ok… let’s say I wake up in the morning to go lift weights, and I’m trying to gain muscle and lose fat, but fat loss is the priority. Do I consume surge before and after the workout, or do I wait until afterwards, when things are ‘primed’ for the insulin rush? If I should wait, then should I consume just a protein shake before lifting?
Nephorm: I highly advise against resistance training sessions in the fasted state. This is not a time to skimp on the nutrition, as we have made it pretty clear that this is the window of opportunity for stimulating growth.
That said, JB wrote about pre-workout nutrition for those of us that get our iron game on before the buttcrack of dawn.
One option is to consume 1/2 serving of Surge before/during your training and follow up the session with another 1/2 serving.
Personally, I just get up an hour and a half earlier than I want to lift, and I eat a nice protein and fat meal. Then, after training, it’s all about the carbs and protein.