To Monty- And there’s the rub, we’re all pretty anal or we wouldn’t be here, right?! 
To Tampa Terry- Good to see you round again! Was wondering when you were going to chip in and help us all out.
As for the “Zig-Zag” diet, I have no experience of this till now. However, I am in agreement with:
1)Kelly Bagget:
don’t even worry about counting calories but rather worry about the effect food combinations and certain training have on hormonal output
AND, 2)Jason Norcross:
Anyway, I think that looking at calories in vs. calories out is always too simplistic because it is so much more complicated than that.
…You’ve got to look on a minute by minute basis and hour by hour basis, creating points in time where fat loss occurs and where muscle can grow.
This is basically what I was trying to go into above- food combining for maximal hormonal manipulation. Unfortunately this also flies in the face (from what you tell me) of the Zig-Zag approach- a)you DO count calories, and b) there is no apparent rationale for food combining for manipulation of hormonal response. Comments TT?
Jason - You and I are really on exactly the same tack I believe. i.e. We both agree it’s NOT a simultaneous effort we’re looking for, but times for growing, times for fat burning WITHIN the same macrocycle.
One thing I am worried about in your most recent comments (your “forget the calories” approach) is (forgive me) it’s just, well, a bit too romanticised isn’t it? I mean, sure let’s eat minute by minute. But then there’s no plan.
It’s like those diets that tell you to “work with your inner emotions, and only eat when you’re hungry…” Unfortunately it doesn’t really work, as what then happens is that you’re thinking about food all the time!
Sure, calorie counting may be too simplistic, but if not calories (or macronutrients), what DO you measure? The “trial and error” method you are SORT OF proposing will I would think definately lead to slower progress than those defined cutting/bulking cycles we’re now trying to better.
Obviously every individual is different, but there’s got to be some kind of starting point to work from.?
To Kelly- The most popular diets on this site are I think looking for precisely that hormonal manipulation you are seeking (i.e. Massive Eating and TDawg1/2). What we WANT is muscle deposition/fat burning. Therefore (per Massive Eating) we combine:
a)carbs with protein (Insulin-> muscle growth)
b)protein with fats (low insulin, incr GH/T3-> lipolysis, incr fat oxidation, whilst muscle mass is preserved).
I’d also like you to clarify your point about measurement of an individuals hormones to determine potential for muscle gain/fat loss.- Do you mean that if someone has an “unfavourable” profile, he should not try to manipulate his hormones by diet/supps to alter that profile?
A few other talking points:
Supps
I think supps, as I spoke of above, might help a lot here too. I mentioned my expected basics- Whey,(BCAA’s), Creatine, Glutamine. I also speculated Hot Roxx or similar metabolism stimulants/cAMP increasing agents might help greatly here. I’d like to add here (as if anyone had forgotten) the importance of Fish Oils/Flax for the preferred formation of DESIRABLE growth factors/eicosanoids, and the enhanced overall fat burning effects. I would also add ALA for its insulin potentiation, and antioxidant potential. I’d be interested to hear of others thoughts on this side of things (Tampa Terry?).
Fat utilisation?
On a fat burning front too, I think that the individual’s capacity for fat burning (innate, or developed through diet changes) will greatly alter the optimal CALORIE and MACRONUTRIENT quantities needed for success. TT I remember you mentioning you are following a fairly low carb diet, and yet are still able to gain strength (some muscle mass too?) and lose BF?
-I suggested then that your body is now more adapted to using FAT sources as energy substrates during exercise/general daily activities. The enzymes controlling lipolysis and lipid oxidation are produced in greater amounts, and their efficiency of action is improved.
What is then the optimal fat:protein:carb ratio for the task at hand, or (as JB has suggested in his articles) do optimal ratios vary in each individual? One would expect that an increased fat burning capacity could be developed quite quickly (within a few days of a higher fat diet?)once the enzymes were “optimised”.
The Right Body Type?
Finally, still not sure on the issue of whether there is a certain “cut-off point” where trying to gain muscle/lose fat is futile. I think however there might be something in this “below optimal BF%” theory mentioned above. The main problem here is lack of case studies:- if one IS below this “optimal BF” i.e. many ectomorp/“hard-gainer” types out there, one doesn’t really attempt this type of approach anyway- it’s calories and mass all the way. I know Timbo’s had some experience in this respect -comments bro?
Certainly, as mentioned above, I think LEPTIN concentrations/activity will start playing a big role here. -Now THERE’S an interesting hormone!
Although BF% and [Leptin] are correlated to a certain extent, it's not as closely as we first thought- calorie and carb intake are also key players. But in general with a low BF%, leptin will fall, metabolism will slow, anabolic hormone levels will fall. So, what I'm wondering is, could the relatively LOW BF% athlete try to control this problem with Leptin by the carb refeed model (see Joel Marion's cheaters diet article) we've been discussing recently for simple BF loss, BUT by taking into consideration other factors we've been talking about, gain muscle too?
Also, if we were to take into account the post-exercise meals of simple carbs that seem like a good idea here for our goals, would they be enough alone anyway to stall falling Leptin levels? Or does it take that LARGE carb surplus to keep the Leptin levels in a useful range?
My guess is that one of the problems would be we would start getting fairly high up in the calorie intake stakes, if we were to employ BOTH a high carb/calorie intake post workout, then also participate in cheat meals. Would this lead to no fat loss/fat gain?
Joel Marion’s certainly the expert on this. I won’t tread on his toes, but would love to hear his input- Joel?.
SRS