Hey Cap, you said you don’t do flat benches due to shoulder problems but you do incline? Don’t you find incline exercises harder on your shoulders than flat? I too had a shoulder injury in the past and my therapist told me to stay away from incline for a bit. Also, (since you just joined the site you may not have seen this) if you’re looking for something to help strengthen the shoulders, take a look at ‘8 Weeks to Monster Shoulders’ in the search engine.
Willie,
Flat benches were what hurt my shoulder in the first place (in high school). Inclines do cause some pain, and I will look for the thread you mentioned. But the pain is in the front of the joint, if that makes sense, and I’ve found the flat benches to cause me the most problems.
The real problem, I think, is that my chest grows too fast for my joints’ safety. About a year ago I started doing heavy benches; within a month or so I did 275 x 7, and screwed up my shoulder all over again. I do the numbers I’ve posted here and only do a total of 6 sets a week for chest (and I don’t do those sets with any real strain), and that’s about all my shoulder can take. And doing overhead barball presses doesn’t really cause me any problems.
[quote]Captain Glanton wrote:
Willie,
Flat benches were what hurt my shoulder in the first place (in high school). Inclines do cause some pain, and I will look for the thread you mentioned. But the pain is in the front of the joint, if that makes sense, and I’ve found the flat benches to cause me the most problems.
The real problem, I think, is that my chest grows too fast for my joints’ safety. About a year ago I started doing heavy benches; within a month or so I did 275 x 7, and screwed up my shoulder all over again. I do the numbers I’ve posted here and only do a total of 6 sets a week for chest (and I don’t do those sets with any real strain), and that’s about all my shoulder can take. And doing overhead barball presses doesn’t really cause me any problems.[/quote]
I had shoulder problems for a while once I started making progress :-). It would just hurt my joints at the bottom of the movement if I went close to heave (10XReps). Warmups wouldn’t help much either.
I finally got through it when somebody recommended the 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Miracle book (on amazon). I never bought that whole idea that I had gotten too strong for my joints - at the time my max was probably 265 on flat bench so there has been lots of progress since 
My main problem was weak inflexible external rotators (compared to my internal rotators which kept getting stronger). The muscle imbalance was literally pulling the head of the bone off center in the socket (causing the pain).
The fix was to make my external rotators stronger (you can’t see them and can’t handle much weight with them so they get overlooked). The pain completey disappeared in 3 weeks (and they were still pretty weak).
I read an article once that said that NFL players have the same problem all the time and that strength coaches often have them train their external rotators for huge gains in strength.
They say the rule of thumb is this :
You should be able to move 10% of your 14" Bench press max with your external rotators for 8 reps. If you can’t, your external rotators are weak and need work. Try it, If you have should pain on the bench I’ll bet you will barely be able to budge it strictly (I couldn’t).
I still can’t do 10% but am much closer (never did take time off to to focus on it but I did cut down on my bench for a few weeks back then).
Two or three sets (I use a waist hight cable instead of dumbells)at the end of my bench workouts is all I need.
The only other thing I am conscious of now is bringing the weight down slowly and aiming for under my nibble line on the bench press (which mean I usually go right to it).
I agree though, if you have been working out for two years and can’t bench your bodyweight, you either haven’t been progressively adding resistance or your form is to let it fall on you and only push the first 1/8 of the way up (we’ve all seen this in the gym).
Later,
-M
Okay, I’m going to assume that by ‘external rotators’ you mean the same thing as ‘rear delts’ and are talking about doing rear delt flies. If that’s not right, please correct me.
Not doing the rear shoulders enough is what screwed up my shoulder in high school, no question (I’m 30 now). I was one of those guys who just wanted to bench all the time, and it led to those strength imbalances you’re talking about. Now, though, I do rear shoulder work on a regular basis. I can do rear dumbbell flies with 40s x 6-8 with no great strain and no pain–though I do feel I could bring them a little bit higher, so that might be a problem. I’ve been doing some shoulder stretching exercises I found on this site, and I’ll definitely try to keep those up. I can add more work to hit the rear shoulders, and if there’s anything besides rear flies to do I can look for descriptions on this site. But I sort of fear that the damage has been done, too, and this is a long term problem.
[quote]ramadano wrote:
Captain Glanton wrote:
Willie,
Flat benches were what hurt my shoulder in the first place (in high school). Inclines do cause some pain, and I will look for the thread you mentioned. But the pain is in the front of the joint, if that makes sense, and I’ve found the flat benches to cause me the most problems.
The real problem, I think, is that my chest grows too fast for my joints’ safety. About a year ago I started doing heavy benches; within a month or so I did 275 x 7, and screwed up my shoulder all over again. I do the numbers I’ve posted here and only do a total of 6 sets a week for chest (and I don’t do those sets with any real strain), and that’s about all my shoulder can take. And doing overhead barball presses doesn’t really cause me any problems.
I had shoulder problems for a while once I started making progress :-). It would just hurt my joints at the bottom of the movement if I went close to heave (10XReps). Warmups wouldn’t help much either.
I finally got through it when somebody recommended the 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Miracle book (on amazon). I never bought that whole idea that I had gotten too strong for my joints - at the time my max was probably 265 on flat bench so there has been lots of progress since
My main problem was weak inflexible external rotators (compared to my internal rotators which kept getting stronger). The muscle imbalance was literally pulling the head of the bone off center in the socket (causing the pain).
The fix was to make my external rotators stronger (you can’t see them and can’t handle much weight with them so they get overlooked). The pain completey disappeared in 3 weeks (and they were still pretty weak).
I read an article once that said that NFL players have the same problem all the time and that strength coaches often have them train their external rotators for huge gains in strength.
They say the rule of thumb is this :
You should be able to move 10% of your 14" Bench press max with your external rotators for 8 reps. If you can’t, your external rotators are weak and need work. Try it, If you have should pain on the bench I’ll bet you will barely be able to budge it strictly (I couldn’t).
I still can’t do 10% but am much closer (never did take time off to to focus on it but I did cut down on my bench for a few weeks back then).
Two or three sets (I use a waist hight cable instead of dumbells)at the end of my bench workouts is all I need.
The only other thing I am conscious of now is bringing the weight down slowly and aiming for under my nibble line on the bench press (which mean I usually go right to it).
I agree though, if you have been working out for two years and can’t bench your bodyweight, you either haven’t been progressively adding resistance or your form is to let it fall on you and only push the first 1/8 of the way up (we’ve all seen this in the gym).
Later,
-M
[/quote]
Whoa Whoa…are you guys trying to add something constructive to this thread? I found it way more enjoyable when it was somewhere between a pissing contest and a train wreck
[quote]Captain Glanton wrote:
Okay, I’m going to assume that by ‘external rotators’ you mean the same thing as ‘rear delts’ and are talking about doing rear delt flies. If that’s not right, please correct me.
[/quote]
The infraspinatus and teres minor handle external rotation.
[quote]Captain Glanton wrote:
Okay, I’m going to assume that by ‘external rotators’ you mean the same thing as ‘rear delts’ and are talking about doing rear delt flies. If that’s not right, please correct me.
Not doing the rear shoulders enough is what screwed up my shoulder in high school, no question (I’m 30 now). I was one of those guys who just wanted to bench all the time, and it led to those strength imbalances you’re talking about. Now, though, I do rear shoulder work on a regular basis. I can do rear dumbbell flies with 40s x 6-8 with no great strain and no pain–though I do feel I could bring them a little bit higher, so that might be a problem. I’ve been doing some shoulder stretching exercises I found on this site, and I’ll definitely try to keep those up. I can add more work to hit the rear shoulders, and if there’s anything besides rear flies to do I can look for descriptions on this site. But I sort of fear that the damage has been done, too, and this is a long term problem.[/quote]
Ah, that is just it. I don’t think we are talking about the same thing (probably because I’m not explaining it correctly). The muscles I’m talking about are underneath the rear delts and aren’t visible. They aren’t very strong since they and don’t do anything but stablise the bone in the socket. They don’t really get sore like the rear delts (they just kind of burn during the workout). You also aren’t expected to progress in weight on these (the idea is to reach and maintain 10% of you bench max for a strict 8 reps so progess).
I’ve seen people doing rear delts with the rack (reverse pec dec) but who can’t move 315. I can press over 340 on the flat bench (and also rack the rear delt peck deck) but on this excercise I can’t use more than 15 or 20 pounds on a cable machine (or 25-30 with dumbells) for sets in the 10-12 range. It is a weird annoying feeling non-muscle muscle.
I find my rear delts (the ones you normally think of) take over if I try lifting too much weight with them or when I get really tired (my elbow then starts to leave my waist too). I use cables and do my reps really slowly and deliberatly (no explosion for these) and try to squeeze while keeping my elbow fixed to my side). I just find the point where I can work as hard as possible without the big muscle taking over.
Does this make sense or am I screwing up the description? I’m 31 now and thought I’d done damage to my shoulders before I found out about these. I haven’t had pain since I found them and warmups take like 1/8 the time they did when I had the pain. The pain will creep back if I continue to lift and stop doing them.
Maybe I’m wrong in your case but it really sounds like the same thing. I read someplace that you body will literally stop getting stronger as a protective measure if these aren’t strong enough.
I found some article on the web about this once. I’ll try to find it again.
-M
[quote]Vesson wrote:
Are they just bullshitting or have I just got shit technique/strength? Any thoughts?[/quote]
it sounds like shit technique to me…
after all i have witnessed many people who have worked out for 3 years and still can’t squat 200 pounds because they have poor technique.
Tips on technique:
Lift some fucking weights.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
uberswank wrote:
(i.e. don’t stretch your neck to get over the bar).
Pull ups don’t require getting your chin over the bar. I had never heard of people straining their necks to the point of injury just to cheat their chin over the bar. I guess some people really do NEED personal trainers.[/quote]
Not to be a pain in the ass but in the Marine Corps it isn’t a pull up if your chin is not over the bar.
[quote]Vesson wrote:
Dear T-Nation gang,
I’ve been into lifting for about 3 years now, mainly for appearance/hypertrophy.
I’ve been reading this site for about 6 months, and I’m always shocked when I hear about a 145 pound 6’2 female volleyballer squatting 200 pounds (and then shes described as having poor power to weight ratio), then some skinny runt dude whos barely been to the gym in his life posts that hes just starting and that he squats 300 pounds… what the fuck?
I freely admit legs have never been my strong point, but I never come CLOSE to any of these people’s benching/squatting or deadlifting figures…
I squat around 160 pounds (for 2 reps really heaving it), and I’m 6’2 and weigh a lean 195…
Are they just bullshitting or have I just got shit technique/strength? Any thoughts?[/quote]
Eh dude, Im 5’7 and 164 and I WARM UP with 160 on the squat. I dont max squat much but I can do 315 for 8 reps easily, and Im nowhere near as strong as alot of people here are…
I can remember during my freshman year when I wrestled at 112 pounds, and I could squat 175…
[quote]mdragon wrote:
Professor X wrote:
uberswank wrote:
(i.e. don’t stretch your neck to get over the bar).
Pull ups don’t require getting your chin over the bar. I had never heard of people straining their necks to the point of injury just to cheat their chin over the bar. I guess some people really do NEED personal trainers.
Not to be a pain in the ass but in the Marine Corps it isn’t a pull up if your chin is not over the bar.[/quote]
In the rest of the service, it isn’t a workout unless you run your ass around a track for 40 minutes and then stretch. It seems as if we have both pointed out imperfections. Good on us. Kudos to you and me. This was exhilerating, was it not?
Ok here goes. I’m 6ft 3in. Although I’ve never been as weak as you I can tell you some common problems in taller people and how to over come them. First you probably have flexibility issues in the posterior chain. You should probably do something like Neanderthal No More routine, you should so a lot of streatching like John Davies’ Pink dvd or the Magnificent Mobility DVD.
I streatched my ass off so that my posterior chain was flexible I also worked on deadlifting at least two times a week. One time would be for sets of 3 to 6 reps for 6 sets. The other time would be at about 50% of my 1RM and would be for sets of 3 for speed. Between reps I would always let the bar go stand up and go back down to that I didn’t let the bar bounce off the ground.
Also don’t go so heavy that you can’t keep good form. Practice tightening your abs and lower back so that they are a brick while doing this. Keep that tightness. Form is the key! Work hard on your deadlift and your rows and you will bring all your other lifts up! This I promise you. Work on unilateral movements in the leg like step ups and bulgarian split squats after deadlifts. Once a month I would try for a maximum squat. I bet your squat will go up tremendously!
ur basically my size, I am 6’1" 202, not super lean. I can squat 290 though, below parallel. Been lifting for about 4 years on and off, and just got serious the past 7 months or so. Want to get strong? low reps heavy weight. I don’t consider myself to be strong at all, but I have made alot of progress using CW’s methods.
Okay, I have found pictures of external rotations on another site, and I’ll definitely give it a try.
Thanks for the info.
160lb squat for 2 reps?
When I started lifting, that’s about what I could do. Being 6’2" 175lbs (skinny!) I worked my way up to 260x2 below parallel after 3 months. And pulled 325lbs.
So I would say if that guy has been squating for 3 years and is still at only 160lbs, something is not right.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
In the rest of the service, it isn’t a workout unless you run your ass around a track for 40 minutes and then stretch. [/quote]
hahaha, I hear you on that one.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
mdragon wrote:
Professor X wrote:
uberswank wrote:
(i.e. don’t stretch your neck to get over the bar).
Pull ups don’t require getting your chin over the bar. I had never heard of people straining their necks to the point of injury just to cheat their chin over the bar. I guess some people really do NEED personal trainers.
Not to be a pain in the ass but in the Marine Corps it isn’t a pull up if your chin is not over the bar.
In the rest of the service, it isn’t a workout unless you run your ass around a track for 40 minutes and then stretch. It seems as if we have both pointed out imperfections. Good on us. Kudos to you and me. This was exhilerating, was it not?[/quote]
Well at least now you know why someone might strain to get their neck over the bar. That was my point.
I never see anyone put that much effort into pull-ups these days. Kudos. Really! A+ on effort.
I also agree these numbers are low. I have only been serious for about the last 5 months since a back injury and I am doing 285 without to much trouble. Also not being able to bench your bodyweight is a sign of relative weakness. Get on one of the programs where you are adding weight each week and get those numbers up. I will say once you get your form up to par your squat numbers will go up dramatically.
I’m sure by now you understand that you are very weak but I agree with you about the lifting figures. There’s alot of BS in the numbers I’ve seen. the big tip off for me is the numbers people post for their cleans.
I’ve trained in commercial gyms for 20 years and have only seen a handfull of people doing cleans and I’ve never seen anyone going over 225 (except in college sports training). Yet, the majority of posters here who list a clean, claim 250 or more. Even guys under 200 lbs.
Don’t get me wrong. I know there’s a lot of very strong people on this site and a lot of impressive, legitimate numbers but, I think there’s a bull too.