Bulking, Good Progress But I Want More

Nutrition
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Here, for example, was todays diet:

Woke up, had a shake- Whey, oats, natural PB, banana

went to school and didnt f**king realize that I had four classes in a row so didnt eat for a good 7 hours…I was sitting in class thinking wow my body is burning my muscles right now.

Whey protein (in water)

Drove home, had: 5 oz chicken breast, 3 slices ezekiel bread w/hummus, mixed vegetables (peas, carrots, green beans, some other) and 2% milk, shot of olive oil

scoop of whey in water pre workout

leg workout

got home, had shake-whey, oats, natural pb, and banana (i know, fats post workout but I had no appetite so I forced that down)

About to eat another meal like the one from earlier (chicken, bread, olive oil, etc)

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[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
Ok great info in the lengthy post appreciate it…I cant believe you fucking typed all that to help me, good stuff

As far as weight and height, I am 6’4" (at least) and 234 pounds. I am very active, walking around school, etc and I walk alot.

to clarify:

Now as far as no carbs before training, won’t I not have any energy to train?? I don’t understand how I will have energy off just eating some chicken breast (or other proteins) along with a little bit of fat all day.

Fibrous vegetables with every meal, what is the purpose? I always thought they were just no calorie pussy food that made me full, but explain.

Why do you recommend only white starch carb sources? I thought whole grain stuff was healthier and better, can you explain that?

…The questions I ask you are so I know WHY I am doing what you recommend, not because I am questioning you BTW…[/quote]

Here are the answers:

Why veggies every meal? Far from pussy food. Humans should eat vegetables as much as possible, fibrous vegetables. They offer an array of health benefits. Doesn’t it seem odd that you are questioning eating white starch because it lacks the healthful qualities of said whole grain sources…yet, eating veggies at every meal seems like its for pussies to you? Doesn’t make much sense.

Pure starch because you can best derive glucose from this for purposes of replenishing glycogen, and producing an anabolic response in combination with a decent amount of high quality protein. I feel that grain sources for the most part are inferior in this regard and whatever health benefits that are offered by way of increased fiber from whole grains etc can and should be replaced by that of your increased vegetable intake. Grains contain a much larger degree of antinutrients and have a higher incidence of food allergy related problems than that of pure starch. Humans definitely can handle pure starch.

In terms of how will you have energy. Because you are backloading all your carbs in the second half of the day post training. As opposed to eating all your carbs before training and small amount after and stopping. In other words…you are just doing the same thing but after instead of before. This is the backload…and you get carryover into the next day and into the next training session. I rarely eat any significant amount of carbs before I train…some days I go up to 6pm without ANY food… just 10g BCAAs pre training…and I experience a very full, big pump and great session overall. Because I’m backloaded from the day before.

This goes to what people were saying with carbs and sleep and why its bullshit. Your body does not magically store food in your stomach as fat just because you go to sleep. You continue to digest and utilize in your sleep…and the next day those nutrients are still being called on for energy and other purposes. I wrote a lengthy posted a few up about how carbs ACTUALLY contribute to fat gain in real world application. And it’s not by direct storage 90% of the time.

The thing is at your height and weight you need a lot of calories. You wouldn’t just be eating a bit of chicken and some nuts lol…you’d be eating a lot of protein and a decent amount of fats. Then you train…post training you eat very minimal fat and lots of carbs and protein listed above. The next day it will carry over into your next session and so on.

I would do some reading on backloading.

Another method that you could do is…still stick to everything I’ve addressed in terms of caloric breakdown and macro breakdown…and stick to everything I’ve addressed in terms of veggies and fruits and using starchy carb sources etc. But don’t backload. Eat them at breakfast and peri-workout…and then switch to less starch after the periworkout period. It’s up to you.

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[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
Here, for example, was todays diet:

Woke up, had a shake- Whey, oats, natural PB, banana

went to school and didnt f**king realize that I had four classes in a row so didnt eat for a good 7 hours…I was sitting in class thinking wow my body is burning my muscles right now.

Whey protein (in water)

Drove home, had: 5 oz chicken breast, 3 slices ezekiel bread w/hummus, mixed vegetables (peas, carrots, green beans, some other) and 2% milk, shot of olive oil

scoop of whey in water pre workout

leg workout

got home, had shake-whey, oats, natural pb, and banana (i know, fats post workout but I had no appetite so I forced that down)

About to eat another meal like the one from earlier (chicken, bread, olive oil, etc)[/quote]

Not too bad but may be a bit low calorically…although I dnno how much pb you use. I don’t see anything wrong with including some fats PWO…thats voodoo science bullshit really. As long as the majority is carb/protein. And a bit too much reliance on whey shakes, but you seem on the go.

Also, your muscles were not wasting away because of 7 hours. I go 16 hours without food daily and can gain weight quite easily. At the end of the days if your calories and macros are right…it won’t matter if you ate it in a couple meals or 6…thats just preference for people based on convienence. Some need to eat a lot more calories than me and opt for 6 meals because they’d be too full otherwise.

You are a much bigger person than me…and at your weight require a lot more calories than I do. I would multiply your bodyweight by about 14-15 depending on your activity level and start there as your maint. calories. Increase that by 20% on training days and maybe slightly below maint. on rest days. Or just maint. on rest days.

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Ok so approximately 3500, so Ill start at about 4000 on training days, and slightly less on weekends.

Ok, I will read more on backloading. I hope you understand why its hard for me to believe that carbs before bed wont be stored as fat, because I have read that so much, and in reputable articles. But i will check backloading and trust you.

This goes back to the hamburger helper…isnt that white pasta? its starch isnt it? I noticed you said something about its processed though. dont know much about what processed means but w/e not important

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@facko: I’m gonna check out Lyle McDonald.

*Second where did no carbs after 7 p.m come from??? I never said that??

I meant don’t eat more than 20 - 30 grabs about an hour before you go to sleep. Make the last meal mostly protein with some healthy fat.

i just ate a baked potato about 30 minutes ago with some turkey meat, it’s now 9:40p.m est time.
Still have one meal 2 go before i go to sleep. It’s gonna be chicken or a lean steak. Then 30 minutes to 45 minutes later i will drink a night shake with ceasin protein.

@OP from steelyD’s post: you have some diverse answers here as far as nutrition goes. You must make sure your time in the gym is well spent. Bust your a$$. It will pay off.

@ 4000 calories you will gain so much weight. in 6 months to a year from now you will be amazed. Stick with it. Keep adding weight to the bar.

Read…Squat…Read…deadlift…read…read

Edit: I don’t suggest you try fasting any time soon. If your interested o.O Wait until you put a year under your belt.

Eat smart, lift harder…

-Stay Strong

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Good advice Mike T

Facko-I have read that its best to keep insulin levels high to gain muscle, so how do you do that without carbs all day>

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And why would i listen to anyone with the last name of mcdonald?

(jk)

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My reasoning is this: I keep insulin very low through out the better half of the day because I’m in an entirely fasted state outside of perhaps 10-20 calories from milk in my coffee. That’s if I choose not to have my coffee black that day. Other than that, I consume ample amounts of water and some plain black or green tea. I then choose to either break my fast with a small 250-350cal pre workout at around 3:30p.m. and train a couple hours later…say from 5:30-6:30p.m…at this point I then consume my first REAL meal which is approximately 100-150g of starchy carbs, 80-100g of protein and minimal fats around 25g. I’ll then have desert which is 300g of oats with approx 100g of strawberries, and a scoop of casein protein…maybe a half tablespoon or tablespoon of peanut butter. Then I’ll eat basically another smaller version of my first meal…with slightly less carbs…usually around 50-75gs or so.

Therefore, I do heighten insulin a great deal…but it’s almost entirely in my post training window (which lasts far longer than people tend to think). People believe they need to immediately slam a whey/carb shake after the last rep of the last set is finished. This is nonsense…in fact, your post workout nutrient sensitivity continues to rise and peaks atleast a few hours after you’re done training. So I take advantage of this entire window when I know my body is going to respond best to and utilize nutrients best.

I feel as though that the fasted state actually contributes to my overall physique goals. The fact that my insulin levels are quiet for so long…when I do stimulate my body to release insulin by eating starchy carbs, my body is thereby more sensitive to the surge. That mixed with the fact that this comes AFTER training…I feel I’m creating a very favorable condition for the nutrients I’m eating to be utilized best.

Yes, insulin is needed to gain mass…but, I try to be wise and allow my body to release ample amounts when I deem it necessary. That equates to about 4 times per week since I train 4 times a week basically.

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Alright, awesome posts thanks alot for the advice I feel like I should pay you lol,

I would find it very hard to have a decent amount of cals on training days without carb sources before the workout…I do not have an appetite like yours where I can kill a huge ass steak and a shitload of mashed potatoes in one sitting…so would it hurt to at least have SOME carb sources for my meals leading up to the workout?

For example, lets say I wake up, have chicken breast and olive oil,
few hours later, have a steak.

…the cals are much less than if I were to have woken up, had a chicken breast WITH white rice and olice oil
and a steak WITH a bunch of potatoes…

…That would have been at least 500 cals I would have missed out on because I was skipping out on carbs.

How do you feel about this? My main concern being not being able to get enough cals in on training days because of the no carb rule until training.

THANKS!!! awesome stuff I am excited to learn all this from you

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Basically, I would still have a shitload of carbs after training, but I would also have carbs before too?

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Edit-
forget the last ppost, I will do whatever it takes, this whole backloading thing seems awesome I have been reading more about it…

but what are your suggestions to still getting decent cals in pre workout?

And lets sya I train around 3 pm, what should my diet look like the rest of the day for carbs? is it one huge ass carb meal, or a bunch, fitting in as many as I can until bed?

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Also, one of the articles I just read says not to try carb backloading unless you have visible abs and a lean lower back to begin with, which I dont…slightly discouraging

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It kinda blows my mind people think only there way works and that the human body is so weak unless you eat in a precise way… boom, your fucked. Case in point Shelby Starnes mentioned in one of the training labs he has clients lean gaining on as low as 0.75 grams of carbs per lb, the body is no where as simple as people are making out here, it adapts.

Find a plan stick to it, if it doesn’t work alter it. There are many ways to get lean.

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[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
Alright, awesome posts thanks alot for the advice I feel like I should pay you lol,

I would find it very hard to have a decent amount of cals on training days without carb sources before the workout…I do not have an appetite like yours where I can kill a huge ass steak and a shitload of mashed potatoes in one sitting…so would it hurt to at least have SOME carb sources for my meals leading up to the workout?

For example, lets say I wake up, have chicken breast and olive oil,
few hours later, have a steak.

…the cals are much less than if I were to have woken up, had a chicken breast WITH white rice and olice oil
and a steak WITH a bunch of potatoes…

…That would have been at least 500 cals I would have missed out on because I was skipping out on carbs.

How do you feel about this? My main concern being not being able to get enough cals in on training days because of the no carb rule until training.

THANKS!!! awesome stuff I am excited to learn all this from you[/quote]

It won’t hurt to have carbs before and after…but remember if that’s the case…you need to be more moderate both times. The reason I stuff my face with 600 grams of white potatoes after I train is because I had no carbs all day nor did I have carbs before training. In most instances, I’m also coming off a rest day the day before in which my carbs were below 50gs and only from trace sources.

I actually suggest you do take a more moderate approach. This means: backloading is not needed for you. I was detailing it as an option and trying to pass knowledge as to why it can and does work for certain people, me included. But, you’d benefit just as much if your macros and cals are the same…you just split them up before your training at breakfast etc and after training.

To be clear…FOR ME…Say I eat 250gs of carbs in a day…I consume all of this in a feeding window of a few hours or so after I train. Therefore, my first meal may include 150gs of starchy carbs.

For you…if you don’t follow a backloading approach and you just eat carbs with breakfast and periworkout…and say you eat 300gs of carbs in a day. It would be like 50g carbs breakfast…50g carbs preworkout meal…150g carbs after training…50gs about an hour later. Then you you wouldn’t eat much carbs for the rest of the day…

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Ok so how does this look:

wake up, shake (whey, oats, pb, banana)
do whatever i do on that day, maybe squeeze in a chicken/ezekiel bread/milk/olive oil meal
scoop of whey pre workout (15 mins before)
After workout, 5 oz chicken breast, two packs white rice (80 g carbs, 400 cals in the rice) and some milk
two-three hours later, another meal with more shitloads of white rice.
high protein meals the rest of the day, with fats

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[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
Ok so how does this look:

wake up, shake (whey, oats, pb, banana)
do whatever i do on that day, maybe squeeze in a chicken/ezekiel bread/milk/olive oil meal
scoop of whey pre workout (15 mins before)
After workout, 5 oz chicken breast, two packs white rice (80 g carbs, 400 cals in the rice) and some milk
two-three hours later, another meal with more shitloads of white rice.
high protein meals the rest of the day, with fats[/quote]

Sounds wayyyy better than how you were eating before man. Now, just make sure you are training HARD and smart. You should see results. Don’t be afraid to add in 20-30 mins of steady state cardio a couple of times per week…Honestly.

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Alright, and I added more volume to my workouts, and added at least one more top set to each exercise, following something similar to kingbeefs 5x split recommendation.

As far as the cardio, when do you recommend I do it? After workouts and on free days? so something like on chest day, on one rest day, and on shoulder day?

…btw I am excited to have made these improvements…It is so awesome when people tell me “wow you have gotten so much bigger” so I am definitely determined to get even bigger and leaner!

Thanks for all the help so far man

Also, what are your reasons for adding cardio? health? keep gains lean? combination of the two?
jw, im still adding it but wanna knwo your reasons

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If you want to do cardio to get leaner, you want to do it when your glycogen stores are empty, which means after heavy weight training session or in the morning when you wake up, before first meal. If its just health reasons, feel free to do it whenever you can squeeze it in, the more the better (as long as you don’t try to run marathon every other day :stuck_out_tongue: ), it’ll still have both the benefits you mentioned at least to some extent (no need to expect 100% lean muscle gained on crazy caloric surplus bulk if you add just couple 30min cardio sessions a week, but I guess you probably knew that already).

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[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
Alright, and I added more volume to my workouts, and added at least one more top set to each exercise, following something similar to kingbeefs 5x split recommendation.

As far as the cardio, when do you recommend I do it? After workouts and on free days? so something like on chest day, on one rest day, and on shoulder day?

…btw I am excited to have made these improvements…It is so awesome when people tell me “wow you have gotten so much bigger” so I am definitely determined to get even bigger and leaner!

Thanks for all the help so far man

Also, what are your reasons for adding cardio? health? keep gains lean? combination of the two?
jw, im still adding it but wanna knwo your reasons[/quote]

I do cardio for health reasons…because I also believe it or not like running. I used to run close to 35 miles or so a week when I weighed about 140lbs…So running is not something I just decided to get rid of when I made an effort to gain size again. I now run 2-3 days a week depending on how I feel, look, weigh…and I typically do it on rest days. Usually on an empty stomach in the morning before I go to work. But, if I don’t have time before work…I’ll just run at night when I get off work. At the end of the day its the calorie intake and expenditure that matter MOST. That’s not to say you won’t burn fatty acid stores a bit more effectively if it is fasted in the morning…you will to an extent. But, those types of details tend to only matter when someone is attempting to get into single digit bodyfat… For most other people just fitting in it will be beneficial in terms of health and in my opinion helps keep conditioning under control.

2-3 days a week man…20-30 days simple solid state. If you include HIIT or sprint work…you are going to need to treat that like another training session. I typically don’t do sprint work at all…my job is already too labor intensive and I eat under maintenence calories on my rest days…I just don’t feel it’s conducive for me.

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Question, wouldn’t fasting and then eating a large meal over long periods of time have a diabetic effect on your body? Or atleast ur pancreas? It sounds like its having to work doubly hard. ( I know doubly is not a word, I think it sounds cool. Double-ly)

I still haven’t studied on mcdonalds articles yet. so from someone who has(researched fasting), do you think there are any risk involved?