Bruce Lee's Stats?

[quote]Sifu wrote:

I didn’t know you have 12 years in the arts Zeb, that explains a lot. I had wondered why you kept wining about tournaments.[/quote]

I think there are plenty of good lessons to learn in the martial arts. Unfortunately, I don’t like the mentality that because you have a black belt you are automatically a dangerous man who could handle the likes of one of the MMA dudes. Um…I just never bought into that.

Who said that the only games I went to had 40,000 people there? I attended many minor league games, college games, even Little League games. I like Baseball that does not mean that I am a great player, even though I played the game well.

[quote]If you look at the picture I added you’ll see the best of Lee’s day standing directly behind Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee at a tournament.
Obviously he thought enough of Lee to include that picture on his website. [/quote]

I had my photo taken with Muhammed Ali when he spoke at a fund raiser once. Does that mean that I can box like Ali? You have to watch that whole “great by association” thing you are into.

If you could just verify one fight that Lee had where he beat the best of this day. Just one and I would be happy. I know who the best were then as I was very active in Karate at the time.

I remember going to Lee’s movies and feeling badly when he died that day back in 1973. But those of us who followed his “career” knew then that he was not the greatest who ever lived. this whole Lee myth has exploded onto the scene a few years after he died.

It really needs to end. And I am ending it right here at T-Nation!

LOL :wink:

III.Personal Character.
The great karate master Gichin Funakoshi stated that martial artists should show great concern for family and relationships. “The mind of the true karateka should be imbued with (family) concern before he turns his attention to his body and the refinement of his technique” (Funakoshi, 1975).

That’s funny. Master Kyan felt that a karate ka should experience life to it’s fullest. So he took his two top students to Naha’s redlight district to drink, gamble, fuck and fight.

Funakoshi’s claim to fame is he was a good student of the great master Ankoh Itosu who was sent to Japan as an emissary of the Okinawans to introduce them to karate and open the first karate school in Japan.

Funakoshi was chosen for this role because he was a teacher of Japanese ettiquette had perfect manners and dressed in a Kimono like a Japanese. Funakoshi was the Number two choose for this role.

Their number one choose was a man named Choki Motobu who wore a Gi, ate with his fingers, despised the Japanese and had a reputation as a trouble maker. Therefore it was agreed amongst the Okinawan masters that there would have been trouble and the Japanese would have to bring in troops to shoot Motubu. So they chose Funkoshi instead.

Master Kyan’s claim to fame was that he was an awesome fighter and one of the best martial artists on Okinawa.

I won’t say he was the greatest ever either. Everyone knows it was Choki Motobu. I will say he was the most influential.

The point I make about Lee being at tournaments is this. If the people at those tournaments had the kind of problem with him that you do they could have easily challenged him.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
I won’t say he was the greatest ever either. Everyone knows it was Choki Motobu. I will say he was the most influential.

The point I make about Lee being at tournaments is this. If the people at those tournaments had the kind of problem with him that you do they could have easily challenged him. [/quote]

A. I don’t have a “problem” with him. I am simply making the point that no one should ever say Lee was the best as he never faced and defeated the best of his day.

B. Why would anyone challenge Lee? What would be the point? The best of the day faced each other and Lee did not participate.

Has anyone here met Bruce? Has anyone here trained with Bruce? Has anyone here fought Bruce? Has anyone here seen anyone do any of these things?

I taught Wing Chun before embracing Jeet Kune Do, which is MMA without all the girly rules. I also train, compete and teach MMA, so don’t go thinking that I disrespect MMA, the rules are still watering it down. I’ve studied Bruce more than anyone I’ve met.

All that is to show a bit of credibility… if you believe anything an anonymous internet poster writes.

Why the hell challenge opinions that cannot be verified!

Who cares what he could or could not do? I studied him to expand my mind. To study what would help me, and leave what wouldn’t.

Anyone who knows he is just an actor is an idiot. Anyone who worships him is an idiot. All of you who make any statements about his ability, good or bad, are idiots. You cannot know anything about him. So why try? After you arm chair quarterbacks stop yapping about imagined ideas you will have nothing. Some of us will have taken our MA to another level. You are all as pathetic as Dave Tate’s beloved Yoda.

Rolo. [sigh]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Krollmonster wrote:
DLboy wrote:
I have the book “Expressing the human body” and it has Bruce Lee’s stats and measurements in them. Prepare to be disappointed. He had 13 inch arms. When I get home, I will post them.

Yeah… but he had forearms and lats on lock!
Especially lats!

Unless his forearms were somehow larger than his upper arms, how did he have them “on lock”? A 12" forearm isn’t exactly stunning or that impressive. If it was less than that, even moreso. The guy was ripped. That is all he was. He was a legendary fighter, but he wasn’t that developed. You could simply see the muscle he did have because he had very little body fat.[/quote]

Exactly. People have to start understanding that the man was concerned about being a good fighter not a powerlifter or bodybuilder. He didn’t give a rat’s ass if he could bench 400 lbs if he thought it wouldn’t help him fight better.

Has this thread gone to Hell? Or is this the true unfolding of a lenghty and sustained debate? Congrats on all in the input on both sides.

[quote]Mastermind wrote:
Has anyone here met Bruce? Has anyone here trained with Bruce? Has anyone here fought Bruce? Has anyone here seen anyone do any of these things?[/quote]

I think most of the Lee worshippers were not even born when he died. Oh, my Sensie did know him and was present when he did his display at Long Beach. By the way the one inch punch that was part of his display was done with his “partner” as it was described. Now I’m not saying that the man fell backwards on purpose. I’m sure Lee packed quite a wallop for a 140 pounder. But…

Now what right do you have to comment on Bruce Lee if you never met him or trained with him? Those are your rules I thought…see above. :slight_smile:

In my case my only statement is: Lee never faced and defeated the best of his day. Hence, we will never know how good he was. Isn’t that fair? Yea…I think it’s fair.

“And leave what wouldn’t.” Hey that’s very Bruce Lee like …Yes, Lee would have said that. No wait Lee did say that.

Well I never stated that he was just an actor. I think he was far more than an actor. But since he never faced and defeated the best of his day we will never know how good a fighter he really was.

But he was more than an actor. He was also a martial arts instructor and below average (in my opinion) philosopher.

Oh…and he was a fair to good writer as well.

Hey…are you calling us all idiots? Okay that did it. Put em up. Come on put em up (dances around with arms flailing)…LOL

Really? Come on you don’t mean that…do you? Are any of us allowed to study historical figures? What about Jefferson? Washington? Jesus Christ?

I think we already know more about him than when the thread began. For example, many who worshipped him are thinking twice now becaue they know he never faced and defeated the best of his day. they also have a better idea of his body strength and many other aspects of his character.

See…we are all learning more about him.

That would be you huh? You sir are taking your martial arts to higher and higher levels! You are learning faster than someone tied to Chuck Norris hip! In fact, you might just be Chuck Norris!

Let me ask you a question Chuck: Why is it that you never taught Trevet any of your moves? He always had to use those boxing type punches in the fight scenes…ah never mind you’re probably not Norris anyway.

Are you? No you couldn’t be Norris wouldn’t act like you.

[quote]You are all as pathetic as Dave Tate’s beloved Yoda.

Rolo. [sigh][/quote]

Sigh? Are you tired?

Um…hey do you think Dave Tate could have beaten Bruce Lee? (Kidding)

Please write back and act mad again I enjoyed that. :slight_smile:

Rolo this is the get a life forum, it is winter and Hell Michigan is frozen over.

I haven’t changed my opinions over this thread.

As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that it’s not healthy going around trying to compare myself to other people all the time trying to constantly compete with everyone.

Lee had his thing going on and that is what he did. Given the choice between going to Rome and making a movie in the colloseum and getting paid or chasing the tournament scene around America for little more than bragging rights, I would choose the former.

Especially if I was trying to bring the martial arts to a larger audience than the handful of practitioners that were doing martial arts at the time.

Enter the Dragon did for martial arts what Pumping Iron did for body building.

Zeb if you trained in martial arts surely you know that what happened to Lee’s partner in the one inch demo is not what’s important in that film. Again you are looking at the finger and missing the moon.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Rolo this is the get a life forum, it is winter and Hell Michigan is frozen over.

I haven’t changed my opinions over this thread.

As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that it’s not healthy going around trying to compare myself to other people all the time trying to constantly compete with everyone.

Lee had his thing going on and that is what he did. Given the choice between going to Rome and making a movie in the colloseum and getting paid or chasing the tournament scene around America for little more than bragging rights, I would choose the former.

Especially if I was trying to bring the martial arts to a larger audience than the handful of practitioners that were doing martial arts at the time.

Enter the Dragon did for martial arts what Pumping Iron did for body building.

Zeb if you trained in martial arts surely you know that what happened to Lee’s partner in the one inch demo is not what’s important in that film. Again you are looking at the finger and missing the moon.[/quote]

I’ve missed nothing!

I agree that being a Kung-Fu movie star is probably better than competing. I think he was smart doing what he did.

But He still never faced and defeated the best of his day. Hence, we will never know how good he really was.

And that is where I began…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
RickJames wrote:
I got an official transcript with Bruce Lee’s stats:

height: short
weight: less than a gallon of milk
strength: enough to tear notebook paper
body fat percentage: hungry

He was actually just AS heavy as a gallon of milk. I thought I would make that one and only correction in what was stated. Carry onward.[/quote]
Yes, but it’s a functional gallon of milk!

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Rolo this is the get a life forum, it is winter and Hell Michigan is frozen over.

I haven’t changed my opinions over this thread.

As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that it’s not healthy going around trying to compare myself to other people all the time trying to constantly compete with everyone.

Lee had his thing going on and that is what he did. Given the choice between going to Rome and making a movie in the colloseum and getting paid or chasing the tournament scene around America for little more than bragging rights, I would choose the former.

Especially if I was trying to bring the martial arts to a larger audience than the handful of practitioners that were doing martial arts at the time.

Enter the Dragon did for martial arts what Pumping Iron did for body building.

Zeb if you trained in martial arts surely you know that what happened to Lee’s partner in the one inch demo is not what’s important in that film. Again you are looking at the finger and missing the moon.

I’ve missed nothing!

I agree that being a Kung-Fu movie star is probably better than competing. I think he was smart doing what he did.

But He still never faced and defeated the best of his day. Hence, we will never know how good he really was.

And that is where I began…

[/quote]

Zeb, you’re a pretty jelous guy. Maybe you should dig up his bones and compare your peni?(or what’s left of his, and yours)

The Moon in this picture is what you don’t see Zeb.

It’s okay you like most others don’t know what to look for.

[quote]Churchill wrote:
Professor X wrote:
RickJames wrote:
I got an official transcript with Bruce Lee’s stats:

height: short
weight: less than a gallon of milk
strength: enough to tear notebook paper
body fat percentage: hungry

He was actually just AS heavy as a gallon of milk. I thought I would make that one and only correction in what was stated. Carry onward.
Yes, but it’s a functional gallon of milk!

[/quote]

Only if it has trained on a swiss ball

[quote]Churchill wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Rolo this is the get a life forum, it is winter and Hell Michigan is frozen over.

I haven’t changed my opinions over this thread.

As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that it’s not healthy going around trying to compare myself to other people all the time trying to constantly compete with everyone.

Lee had his thing going on and that is what he did. Given the choice between going to Rome and making a movie in the colloseum and getting paid or chasing the tournament scene around America for little more than bragging rights, I would choose the former.

Especially if I was trying to bring the martial arts to a larger audience than the handful of practitioners that were doing martial arts at the time.

Enter the Dragon did for martial arts what Pumping Iron did for body building.

Zeb if you trained in martial arts surely you know that what happened to Lee’s partner in the one inch demo is not what’s important in that film. Again you are looking at the finger and missing the moon.

I’ve missed nothing!

I agree that being a Kung-Fu movie star is probably better than competing. I think he was smart doing what he did.

But He still never faced and defeated the best of his day. Hence, we will never know how good he really was.

And that is where I began…

Zeb, you’re a pretty jelous guy. Maybe you should dig up his bones and compare your peni?(or what’s left of his, and yours)[/quote]

That might be the most ignorant thing that I’ve read on this forum in a long long time.

Congrats!

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Churchill wrote:
Professor X wrote:
RickJames wrote:
I got an official transcript with Bruce Lee’s stats:

height: short
weight: less than a gallon of milk
strength: enough to tear notebook paper
body fat percentage: hungry

He was actually just AS heavy as a gallon of milk. I thought I would make that one and only correction in what was stated. Carry onward.
Yes, but it’s a functional gallon of milk!

Only if it has trained on a swiss ball[/quote]

LOL

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Attention: More myth crushing facts ahead. Drive slowly!

"(References for Mr Hess’s analysis and his qualifications and published work at the bottom)

Bruce Lee is the personality most associated with the martial arts. Both
martial art enthusiasts and non-practioners consider the deceased actor as the ultimate martial artist. Although he did not compete in tournaments or submit to any empirical conventions wherein his ability could be objectively assessed, he is frequently referred to as a superior athlete and the strongest fighter “pound for pound.”

A close examination of his exercise regime and personal character reveal a committed athlete and martial artist but not to the mythic proportions usually ascribed to him. This article will review Lee’s physical strength, aerobic capacity, and individual character to assess whether he should be considered the “best of the best”.

I. Physical strength.
Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using 95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the 25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males (Hatfield, 1993).

This type of estimation for the 1 repetition maximum is standard among
athletic trainers to assess the strength level of a wide range of athletes,
both professional and amateur.While some chart estimates may vary slightly from one to another, most are within approximately 10% of one another.
Some readers, who are accustomed to viewing Lee as possessing epic strength, may assert that Lee probably was not using his maximum ability at that time. It is therefore noted that this regime occurred prior to Lee’s well-known back injury. Furthermore, if Lee was capable of performing the squat exercise with more than 95 pounds for 10 repetitions, one must question why this was part of his established routine or, alternatively, why he would be committing himself to a method of underachievement by using too low an amount of weight to stimulate the greatest strength gains possible.

To further demonstrate this below-average lower body strength, the estimated
130 pound maximum estimate would mean Lee was not prepared for plyometric training (a type of explosiveness exercise) which requires the ability to squat a minimum of 1.5 times the body weight (Allerheiligen, 1994).In other words, at an approximate body weight of 140 pounds, Lee would need to have squatted 210 pounds to engage in plyometric training based on recognized standards for training of athletes by today’s standards.
Lee’s upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal.

Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong, Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion, between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee’s training. Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to its maximum potential.

Numerous observers of Bruce Lee, such as deceased Kenpo master Ed Parker, have stated Lee was perhaps the strongest “pound for pound” martial artist. Sport science can confirm this possibility. Numerous assessments of athletes throughout the past few decades have confirmed that smaller athletes are proportionately stronger than larger ones. This is due to the fact that a muscle’s maximum contractile force is proportional to its cross-sectional area.In laymen’s terms, this means that a smaller athlete has a higher strength to mass ratio than larger athletes.
Stated practically, as body size increases, body mass increases more rapidly than does muscle strength.

In a colloquial sense, it could be said this is similar to the “law of diminishing returns.” Certain martial art film stars such as Jean Claude Van Damme and Jeff Speakman may look better due to their mass, but their actual strength, in proportion to body weight, would be less than a relatively light person such as Lee.

Incredible speed is inherent to superior strength at a low body weight.
Since Lee never weighed more than 143 pounds yet possessed superior upper body strength in the 100th percentile, this would account for the lightening speed he demonstrated on film. With more mass, he would not have been as fast and would not have appeared so on film.

II. Aerobic capacity.
Lee was known to advocate running as the best cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15 minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case, this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2 max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual’s maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.

The average VO2 max among healthy young men is between 45 and 55. Lee’s estimated value of 50, based on his running times, would place him squarely in the middle of average healthy young men. The values among elite runners and cross-country skiers is usually a range between 75 and 85 ml/kg/min. In other words, Lee’s aerobic capacity was quite average. Once again, certain readers who are accustomed to viewing Lee in epic proportions may assert that Lee was not running his fastest and was capable of more. Considering his personality, if this were true it arguably would have been publicized somewhere.

In contrast to Lee’s estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon. Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did Bruce Lee.

III.Personal Character.
The great karate master Gichin Funakoshi stated that martial artists should show great concern for family and relationships. “The mind of the true karateka should be imbued with (family) concern before he turns his attention to his body and the refinement of his technique” (Funakoshi, 1975).

In contrast, Lee is reported to have been involved in several extramarital affairs and, in fact, died in the apartment of a woman with whom he has intimately involved (Beeckler, 1996).
Lee also died without a will (intestate) which left his widow with almost a decade of legal battles to settle the matter of his estate. While some may argue that his early, unanticipated, death would have precluded finalizing a will, Lee was conscious enough of his own mortality that he purchased significant amounts of life insurance just months prior to his death.

And while Funakoshi admonishes martial artists to render honor to their families before refining themselves, when Bruce Lee did refine himself physically it was not in a wholly honorable fashion. In addition to the prescription medications Cortisone and Dilantin, he is also reported to have used anabolic steroids and diuretics to achieve his physique (Beeckler, 1996). It is also documented that he was a user of marijuana during the final three years of his life and it was discovered in his body during the autopsy.

Why the Best of the Best?
Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone. Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood court?
Today’s martial athletes can demonstrate their abilities in an empirical manner.

For example, the IMPAX instrument records the total of punches and kicks delivered in a certain period of time and the total force of a strike or kick. The elite kick boxers surveyed in the earlier referenced study were objectively assessed regarding their aerobic and anaerobic capacity as well as maximum knee torque. In other words, the tools exist today to determine who is the best of the best among martial artists.

For better or worse, Lee escaped objective evaluation.
It’s tremendously subjective but Bruce Lee is arguably considered the most noteworthy martial artist due to his magnetism on film. Regardless of any opinion about his actual martial art talent, or lack of empirical demonstration regarding his ability, he expressed himself on the screen in a manner that no martial artist has equaled.

And, by combining his upper body strength and light body weight, he possessed uncanny speed that visually made believers of anyone who saw him in action.

Reassessing the Usefulness of the Bruce Lee Myth
In one sense, Lee is forever a tremendous asset to the martial art community as his image and myth draws people to the arts. These fledgling martial artists may then be retained for more noble and enduring reasons than a desire to emulate someone whose example is questionable upon closer examination.

Once a martial artist reviews the reality of Lee’s strength, aerobic capacity and personal character, a sober question must be addressed: should Lee’s myth be actively deconstructed among novice martial artists? Perhaps not.

That may be a function of maturity and be better emphasized in the later stages of training and spiritual development within the arts. Instead, people need a visual image to connect to and, until they begin to see their own selves in growing competency, may need the myth of Bruce Lee to sustain their training efforts.

References

Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (70)

Wathen, Dan (1994). Load Assignment. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (436)

Hatfield, Fredrick C., Ph. D. (1993). Fitness: The Complete Guide. International Sport Sciences Association, California. (119) .

Allerheiligen, William B. (1994). Speed Development and Plyometric Training. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (321)

Lee, Bruce (1975). Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Ohara, Burbank, California. ( )

Storm, Mitch; Black Belt Magazine, The Editors (1986). The Legendary Bruce Lee. Ohara, Burbank, CA. (53)

Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (54)

Noakes, Timothy, M.D. (1991). The Lore of Running. Leisure Press, Champaign, Illinois. (42)

Tiidus, Peter M.; Zabukovec, Randy (1995). “Physiological and Anthropometric Profile of Elite Kickboxers”. Journal of Strength and Conditioning research, (November) 240-242.

Funakoshi, Gichin (1975). Karate-Do: My Way of Life. Kodansha International, Tokyo, Japan. (102)

Beeckler, Tom (1996). Unsettled Matters: The Life and Death of Bruce Lee. Gilderoy Publications, Lompoc, California. (144; 182)

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: In addition to the martial arts, Mr. Hess is a licensed cycling coach who regularly works with successful endurance athletes with tiny vertical jumps. He is the author of Total Quality Martial Arts: Pathways to Continuous Improvement."[/quote]

on his weak lower body (squatting 95 pounds):

  • Bruce Lee did use 95 pounds on the squat, during his first ever weight training workout on may 27 1965. He believed you should start very light and advised his pupils to start at 90-95 pounds when starting the squat. Is it fair to say he was never that strong based on his strength level on his first workout?

I’m pretty sure the scientific term to describe bruce lee is “fuckin huge.”

[quote]GuyIncognito wrote:

on his weak lower body (squatting 95 pounds):

  • Bruce Lee did use 95 pounds on the squat, during his first ever weight training workout on may 27 1965. He believed you should start very light and advised his pupils to start at 90-95 pounds when starting the squat. Is it fair to say he was never that strong based on his strength level on his first workout?
    [/quote]

Where did you get the information that it was his “first ever” weight traininhg workout?

This is what the article stated:

"Furthermore, if Lee was capable of performing the squat exercise with more than 95 pounds for 10 repetitions, one must question why this was part of his established routine or, alternatively, why he would be committing himself to a method of underachievement by using too low an amount of weight to stimulate the greatest strength gains possible.

From the article it seems that this was his established routine.Not his “first ever” workout.

Again, if you are quoting from another text please verify this.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Beam me up, Scotty.

Why is it anyone’s goal to be a short, skinny oriental?

These Bruce Lee worshipers are getting on my nerves. Is there a spray we can spray that will geit rid of them? Like giant can of RAID?[/quote]

Sure, … now go to a Jeet Kune-do Martial Arts school and smugly repeat that, lol.

Seeing as you’re in Texas, rainjack, your comment are as dopey as someone making reference to goals of being a big, fat, texan.