Bruce Lee's Stats?

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181

Zeb, you sure showed me!

Wow, I actually thought your posts had a bit of merit.

As for me being mad; huh? Tone is not expressed well. When I was calling out idiot, it was to anyone who claims to know something who cannot possibly know anything. I meant that literally; no emotion with it.

And what the hell is with the Chuck Norris thing? Did you simply have nothing to say and felt that your post wasn’t long enough?

Zeb, you have no moon or point.

No one knows what they are talking about when it comes to Bruce Lee, so debating “facts” is useless. Look at the fucking moon. All we can do is discuss his training, philosophy, ideas, etc. The whole my dad can beat up your dad thing is retarded. (read: Bruce was this, or that, could do this or that)

Rolo.

182

Hi ZEB,

I can’t speak for InCognito, but I attained the knowledge that the 95 lbs he was using in that weight training routine was a begginning weight from the book The Art Of Expressing The Human Body. The book contains several of Lee’s workouts which were gathered from his personal notes. The workout you are referring to was obtained from a Gym Card that Lee filled out in 1965, when he first began to experiment with resistance training.

Don’t forget that Lee died in 1973, so to suggest that he never added weight to his squats is pretty ridiculous. Are you still using the same weight on squats that you used 8 years ago? I seriously doubt it. And judging from Lee’s knowledge of the importance of Progressive Overload, it’s pretty silly to think that he would use the same weight for 8 years.

The ability to kick a 300 lb heavy bag with a side kick and cause the bag to fly up and slap the ceiling should also put such a ridiculous notion to rest. Now, I realize that kicking isn’t necessarily the same thing as squating. But, the strength to overcome the impact force required to move such a heavy bag (at a maximum weight of 143 lbs) would need to be much greater than could be developed squatting 95 lbs.

I am also in agreement with everyone here who is a Bruce Lee fan, but doesn’t believe he is the Messiah by any means. He was a talented martial artist, and was unquestionably the most influencial martial artist of this century. But, he was only human, and no human is unbeatable.

Sifu, I would warn against making claims about anyone being the “best of all time”. This is an impossible point to argue since we can’t possibly take every martial artist throughout history at their physical prime and have them fight.

Good training,

Sentoguy

183

Oops, I meant GuyCognito, sorry.

184

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Point (person states while looking wild eyed):

“Lee was the greatest martial artist whoever lived.”

Counter Point: “Lee never fought and defeated the best of his day. Hence, we have nothing to base such a wild claim on.”

End of story (for the rational)…

But never really the end as the Lee worshippers refuse to base any sort of determination upon sound facts.

:slight_smile:

[/quote]

That much makes perfect sense. What I don’t get, is why bother me about it? I never made any praeternatural suppositions towards Bruce Lee, and anything I might have said that even resembled it would have been said in a definite context.

That being said, thanks for that ‘debunking Bruce’ article. Definitely biased, and some of the conclusions are flawed, but the raw data is interesting.

Anyways, I thing the subject is settled now. Good to spar with you, ZEB :wink:

-Glee

185

Okay sentoguy you have me convinced. Kempo founder Choki Motobu wasn’t the best fighter ever. It’s not like you see any Kempo people winning in the UFC.

I guess I’ll have to say it was Lee. Glad we got that sorted out.

186

Hi Sifu,

Ok, I wasn’t trying to suggest that Lee was the greatest ever. I personally don’t think he was. My suggestion was more of a blanket statement. And I don’t think that just because someone has never won a MMA title that they are automatically removed from the list of potential “best fighters ever”.

I personally know of some martial artists who I think are/were better fighters than Lee. But, once again the truth can never be proven, so trying to argue either way is silly in my opinion.

Good training,

Sentoguy

187

[quote]calgarynewf wrote:
The guy was ripped. That is all he was. He was a legendary fighter, but he wasn’t that developed. You could simply see the muscle he did have because he had very little body fat.

Yeah, what the hell is with that shit. I had an ex-girlfriend say that Leonardo DiCaprio was muscular in some shitty movie or other. Some people just can’t tell the difference in muscular and ripped. I dont care when it was in their careers but Leonardo, and Bruce were not big or muscular.
[/quote]

Not that developed? That’s funny. You could simply see the muscle he did have because he had very little body fat. Even funnier. That’s why every skinny person looks ripped.

188

[quote]Mastermind wrote:

No one knows what they are talking about when it comes to Bruce Lee, so debating “facts” is useless. Look at the fucking moon. All we can do is discuss his training, philosophy, ideas, etc. The whole my dad can beat up your dad thing is retarded. (read: Bruce was this, or that, could do this or that)

Rolo.[/quote]

Debating facts is useless? Then what should we debate? I think if you thought about that statement you wouldn’t have written it. :slight_smile:

We are discussing his training philosophies. fighting abilitis, persona etc. And we do know quite a lot about the man, much more than we do some historical figures. And if what you are taking out of this thread is on the order of “my dad can beat up your dad” then you have missed the boat!

189

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi ZEB,

I can’t speak for InCognito, but I attained the knowledge that the 95 lbs he was using in that weight training routine was a begginning weight from the book The Art Of Expressing The Human Body. The book contains several of Lee’s workouts which were gathered from his personal notes. The workout you are referring to was obtained from a Gym Card that Lee filled out in 1965, when he first began to experiment with resistance training.[/quote]

According to the article posted above that was his training weight.

I think that’s a good point IF that was the weight he used in 1965 and not 1973. This is a disputed fact.

It’s also only a story from an actor. Did it happen? How many other people saw it? Did it ever happen more than once in front of more than one person?

I punched a hole through 17 cement blocks in my basement once and my wife will attest to it!

Does that make it true? Would it be more credible if I was a movie star? Would you be more apt to believe it if I was a big star and you liked me?

Think.

I agree with that statement.

[quote]Sifu, I would warn against making claims about anyone being the “best of all time”. This is an impossible point to argue since we can’t possibly take every martial artist throughout history at their physical prime and have them fight.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Good luck with trying to bring reality regarding Lee to this man.

190

Hi ZEB,

Interestingly the question of whether or not 95 lbs was his training weight for squats during 1965 or later in his life is not as debatable as you suggest. At the top of the gym card where this training weight was obtained the date is written as follows: May 27, 1965.

That pretty much proves (at least to the extent that can be proven) that this was the weight that Lee used early in his weight training career. And because of reasons I earlier mentioned, I highly doubt that he would not have added weight as he became stronger.

As far as the 300lb heavy bag thing, yes, I see your point. But, I have actually read several accounts of him doing this, from fellow martial artists. I have also read several accounts of his side kick power being other worldly. Of course, it’s possible that some of these accounts have been exaggerated, but judging by the fact that we have so many accounts by different people, we can at least conclude that his side kick was very powerful for a person his size.

Good training,

Sentoguy

191

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi ZEB,

Interestingly the question of whether or not 95 lbs was his training weight for squats during 1965 or later in his life is not as debatable as you suggest. At the top of the gym card where this training weight was obtained the date is written as follows: May 27, 1965.[/quote]

I’m sorry, I didnt’ see that card. I was going by the article above. If such a card exists then by all means we have to assume that he did go beyond that weight if begun in 65’.

[quote]As far as the 300lb heavy bag thing, yes, I see your point. But, I have actually read several accounts of him doing this, from fellow martial artists. I have also read several accounts of his side kick power being other worldly. Of course, it’s possible that some of these accounts have been exaggerated, but judging by the fact that we have so many accounts by different people, we can at least conclude that his side kick was very powerful for a person his size.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I have only heard about the kick that destroyed a 300lb. heavy bag from one source.

Are you stating that others also stated that they witnessed him send a 300lb. heavy bag sailing through the air?

I trust his side kick was indeed powerful. But again, it’s easy to add to stories. I’d like to read some other accounts of this incredible side kick power of his before I believe it.
Could it be true? Sure it could, why not. But it could also be a very big exageration. We will never know for sure.

What we do know is that Lee never faced and defeated the best of his day, and that is the point of my original post. :slight_smile:

192

I’m just kidding. Who knows who is the best ever. I can admire what the man acheived with out wasting my time pondering all the intangibles.

One thing about Lee was he was very fast. Speed like his can be a huge asset. I haven’t seen anyone in the ufc or pride who is faster than him.

All the size in the world isn’t going to help you if the other guy is too quick for you to land anything on him. And if the other guy is fast enough to land what he wants to land without you hitting him in exchange you can have a real problem on your hands.

Lee left behind a lot of good ideas and a few not so good ideas. He had his sparring partners who he trained with regularly. That’s how he came up with some of his ideas, by testing them out.

193

[quote]Sifu wrote:
I’m just kidding. Who knows who is the best ever. I can admire what the man acheived with out wasting my time pondering all the intangibles.[/quote]

Too late!

When you fight for real and others are trying to hit back you don’t look quite as good. On film when no one is really trying to hit you …well you can look very fast!

Yea…

194

O.K. you obviously don’t think Bruce Lee was tough at all. The thing that amazes me most is that nobody address the fact that Lee studied physics and that the equation for force is F=MA. Therfore if he can be 4x as fast as someone than he can do as much or more damage to a person 3times his size. Lee studied Wing Chun kung fu, and this style was a response to the 12 Shaolin animal styles. Developed by a female monk Wing Tsun, it emphasized economy of motion and several other principles. Find a Wing Chun (the evolved style of Wing Tsung kung fu) video, the attacks are so furious and fast it is hard to belive that people can actually do this.

Futhremore Lee has footage of fighting bare handed against knife fighters in China. It seemed to be a common practice in China, and not just for him. His style of combat was designed to win street fights, not to win MMA titles or championships. In a street fight the 400lb monster can get kicked in the goin and then puched in the throat, game over.

Lee also did isometrics and plyometrics. I know a guy who had 36inch legs, and his football coach got him that strong using isometrics, with strength-training. This was right around that Lee starting teaching.

Lee was adamantly against rules in fighting wich makes sense. MMA, and all the likes do not allow a person to perhaps capatilize on certain techniques that would end many fights in seconds. After all, boxers hug constantly in a boxing match. You try and hug a good boxer in a street fight.

While i believe in many instances that chi is very real, i will eliminate this variable due to the fact that it is really immesurable, but the shaoilin have proved its existence and Wing Chun is a response to the 12 animal styles practiced by the Shoalin.

Ultimatley, it is impossible to define somone as the best fighter ever, just for the simple fact that one person cannot fight everybody that has existed. There is footage of Lee training Chuck Norris, doing physical feats that are unimaginable, and he also had the respect of the enire Western martial arts community, while enfuriating the Chinese for teaching this particular art to Americans. Do some research on Wing Chun gung fu, and you’ll see. Furthermore, Lee did not encorporate belts into JKD because he too thought it was foolish to give somebody a false sense of invincibility. Just because you are a black belt does not mean you can’t be KO’d by one mean punch.

I do not claim to be an expert on martial arts but all i can do is look at the particular footage i have seen and read the books that are out there. I am pretty sure though that Lee would defeat many of the martial artiss today. He would have countiualy changed.

195

[quote]wizzy wrote:
O.K. you obviously don’t think Bruce Lee was tough at all. The thing that amazes me most is that nobody address the fact that Lee studied physics and that the equation for force is F=MA. Therfore if he can be 4x as fast as someone than he can do as much or more damage to a person 3times his size. Lee studied Wing Chun kung fu, and this style was a response to the 12 Shaolin animal styles. Developed by a female monk Wing Tsun, it emphasized economy of motion and several other principles. Find a Wing Chun (the evolved style of Wing Tsung kung fu) video, the attacks are so furious and fast it is hard to belive that people can actually do this.

Futhremore Lee has footage of fighting bare handed against knife fighters in China. It seemed to be a common practice in China, and not just for him. His style of combat was designed to win street fights, not to win MMA titles or championships. In a street fight the 400lb monster can get kicked in the goin and then puched in the throat, game over.

Lee also did isometrics and plyometrics. I know a guy who had 36inch legs, and his football coach got him that strong using isometrics, with strength-training. This was right around that Lee starting teaching.

Lee was adamantly against rules in fighting wich makes sense. MMA, and all the likes do not allow a person to perhaps capatilize on certain techniques that would end many fights in seconds. After all, boxers hug constantly in a boxing match. You try and hug a good boxer in a street fight.

While i believe in many instances that chi is very real, i will eliminate this variable due to the fact that it is really immesurable, but the shaoilin have proved its existence and Wing Chun is a response to the 12 animal styles practiced by the Shoalin.

Ultimatley, it is impossible to define somone as the best fighter ever, just for the simple fact that one person cannot fight everybody that has existed. There is footage of Lee training Chuck Norris, doing physical feats that are unimaginable, and he also had the respect of the enire Western martial arts community, while enfuriating the Chinese for teaching this particular art to Americans. Do some research on Wing Chun gung fu, and you’ll see. Furthermore, Lee did not encorporate belts into JKD because he too thought it was foolish to give somebody a false sense of invincibility. Just because you are a black belt does not mean you can’t be KO’d by one mean punch.

I do not claim to be an expert on martial arts but all i can do is look at the particular footage i have seen and read the books that are out there. I am pretty sure though that Lee would defeat many of the martial artiss today. He would have countiualy changed.

Your obviously an expert at posting on posts that have been dead for over a month though.

[/quote]

196

[quote]DLboy wrote:
More bullshit.

The one inch punch is not taught to “white belts”. Furthermore, Japanese arts in general do not teach the one inch punch. The only arts I can think of are Wing Chun, Xing Yi and the other internal chinese arts, and maybe some other Chinese styles.

But to expand on that, the one inch punch has nothing to do with strength. I have practiced Xing Yi myself, which is an internal martial art that focuses on hitting with the entire body. The one inch punch is a matter of aligning your skeletal system to put yourself in a more advantageous position. From there, you explode with your entire body. But in Xing Yi, the true one inch punch doesn’t “push” the target away, it hits them to do damage. Whether or not this is a realistic technique is another story.

Furthermore, a MMA fighter in Lee’s weight class would most definitely defeat him. It is very well documented that Gene Lebell beat Lee by simply tackling his 18 inch legs (minus the 18 inches bit). Bruce would easily be defeated by a well versed grappler. Also, Gene probably didn’t know half of what today’s submission wrestlers are capable of.

I hate to be so stern, but Bruce Lee doesn’t deserve any credit. He was an actor, but that is all.[/quote]

No. It is NOT “well documented” that Bruce Lee was defeated by Gene Lebell with a tackle. It is documented that Gene INSTRUCTED Bruce in the art of Newaza, ground fighting.

Bruce Lee’s asset was not his strength, it was his ability to utilise that strength. He would destroy training apparatus with his explosive power, he moved so quickly in one film clip I saw of him, that in one instance he had kicked the bag before I even noticed that he was visible (and this is when he is slowed down somewhat).

I’m not a nuthugger who will claim he was unbeatable, simply that the massive advantage he had was his adaptability, his attitude, his work ethic, and his ability to see things outside the context of rules. In a conflict situation I believe Bruce Lee would be more focused on kneecapping someone than beating them in a standard UFC style, which gives him a definite edge.

I believe Bruce Lee would have had a definite edge over anyone in his weightclass, outside of it I’m unsure, but on the street I most certain think he would be dangerous.

197

Oh, another point I MUST comment on “Gene Lebell probably didn’t know half of what today submission wrestlers do.”

Again with the bullshit about Gene Lebell.

Gene Lebell fought the number 5 ranked boxer in his weightclass in the world (using only Judo techniques). The boxer had a metal plate inside his gloves, and was wearing a karate gi.

The boxer landed some inconsequential bodyshots and was choked unconscious in the 4th round (may have been the 5th). This IS documented and IS proven. The boxer’s name was Milo Savage.

Gene Lebell trained Gokor Chivichyan, one of the greatest submission artists involved in the sport of Mixed Martial Arts. Gokor defeated a Japanese bare knuckle boxer/karateka with over 200 documented victories, in the first round via armbar. This is also documented AND the fight is viewable on youtube (if it hasn’t been removed).

For Gene to train fighters (he still is) to the level he is, for competition, and for training for the sake of training, he has to be at the TOP level of proficiency himself.

Gene is considered one of the best newaza teachers in the world, nicknamed “Judo Gene Lebell”, and has defeated several olympians in his dojo sparring sessions. He has an international reputation and it is not for you, someone clearly unknowledgable in such matters, to defame the man unnecessarily.

198

Over a year has past and this is still the gayest thread ever.

199

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Over a year has past and this is still the gayest thread ever.[/quote]

Obviously you haven’t seen the leave Britney aloooooneeee thread.

200

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Over a year has past and this is still the gayest thread ever.

Obviously you haven’t seen the leave Britney aloooooneeee thread. [/quote]

I stand corrected.