short interview w/ joe lewis. very interesting his perspective for comparing/sizing up fighters.
you guys are right, there is no fight record to measure and rank bruce lee. so you can’t call him a champion, but that doesn’t make him a nothing. how do you discount a statement like lebell’s when he say’s “bruce lee was the greatest martial artist of his time ?” how do you discount the respect that joe lewis and my man chuck norris have for the guy, enough respect to study with him ? good grief ! sounds like those guys who still argue that miles davis couldn’t play.
For all of you looking for fight records of Bruce beating the “best of his day”:
Full-contact martial arts events simply didn’t exist. There was no concept of full-contact competition in Bruce’s time. Ironically enough, it was individuals like Bruce, the founders of TKD, Mas Oyama (who interestingly enough nearly fused Kyokushin with TKD but that’s another story) and others who argued for full-contact events.
Up until this point, traditional Karatekas and other practitioners deemed their arts “too dangerous” to be used in any sort of competition. Finding legitimate fight records is next to impossible.
[quote]AZMojo wrote:
You were responding by saying “Lee wasn’t a sports fighter, he was a martial artist. See the difference?”[/quote]
Let’s start by getting the facts straight. Firstly, I was responding specifically to DLboy in the context of his own statement:
“Bruce would easily be defeated by a well versed grappler.”
Here’s part of my response that you creatively paraphrased above:
“Lee wasn’t a sports fighter. He was a martial artist. Think about it.”
Notice that I never said “See the difference”.
I see you’ve thought about it. Okay, we’re off to a good start.
Damn, you were doing so well. I guess we’ve gotten to the point that I need to spoon-feed you.
My statement was meant to infer that martial arts is a superset of sports fighting, and that a ‘grappler’ is a combat sportsman, not a martial artist.
Basically, if you take a martial art and take away all the bits that make it unsporting in any given respect, you’re left with a combat sport. For example, savate minus kicks and bare fist, forearm and elbow strikes and headbutts (roughly) equals boxing.
As Lee was more a martial artist than a sports fighter, he was able to respond to Lebell’s chide in an unsportsmanlike and tactically-meaningful manner. You might not think it was very effective, but this guy evidently did: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ray.d8/article12.html
Argumentum ad hominem. AZMojo 1 point penalty.
You mean, pointing out that biting is an effective, if dirty, combat tactic? If you’re still stuck on that, my invitation for you to prove me wrong stands.
You’re still stuck on that too? Listen, you brought them up, I refuted your reductio ad absurdum, get over it.
Argumentum ad hominem. AZMojo 1 point penalty.
It’s not possible for me to stray. By responding to me, you welcomed yourself into my discussion with DLboy. I set the terms.
DLboy said his piece, I said mine, and that was the end of it. What has you in such a tizzy?
No worries, I can multi-task =)
Oh, by the way, argumentum ad hominem (again). AZMojo 1 point penalty. You’re racking up a few, aren’t you?
[quote]As concerns Bruce Lee specifically, he got into fights and brawls on a regular basis – he certainly wasn’t the paper tiger you seem to imagine when you use the term ‘martial artist’.
How exactly do you know this?[/quote]
It’s a well-documented part of Bruce Lee’s youth, as confirmed by friends, family, biographers, and droves of material and circumstantial evidence. There’s certainly more evidence of his belligerent youth than there is of Lebell ever having subdued him.
-Glee
[quote]swivel wrote:
you guys are right, there is no fight record to measure and rank bruce lee. so you can’t call him a champion, but that doesn’t make him a nothing. how do you discount a statement like lebell’s when he say’s “bruce lee was the greatest martial artist of his time ?” how do you discount the respect that joe lewis and my man chuck norris have for the guy, enough respect to study with him ? good grief ! sounds like those guys who still argue that miles davis couldn’t play. [/quote]
I never once stated that Bruce Lee did not understand and was not good at martial arts.
The Harlem Globetrotters (do they still do exhibitions?) were incredible with a basketball. All sorts of trick shots and incredible sound knowledge of the game. BUT…they are not going to be beating any NBA team.
See the difference?
[quote]zdrax wrote:
For all of you looking for fight records of Bruce beating the “best of his day”:
Full-contact martial arts events simply didn’t exist. There was no concept of full-contact competition in Bruce’s time. Ironically enough, it was individuals like Bruce, the founders of TKD, Mas Oyama (who interestingly enough nearly fused Kyokushin with TKD but that’s another story) and others who argued for full-contact events.
Up until this point, traditional Karatekas and other practitioners deemed their arts “too dangerous” to be used in any sort of competition. Finding legitimate fight records is next to impossible. [/quote]
But you see that’s only partially true.
There were tournaments and there was a great deal of contact, especailly to the body.
And karatakas like Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone and a host of others actually entered those tournaments to find out who was the best. Bruce Lee never did as his ambition was to be the greatest Kung Fu movie star not the greatest fighter.
Tournaments are not all they are made out to be. I have to wonder how many of you have actually been in one.
One thing about Lee is undeniable he has done more to inspire people into learning martial arts than anyone else.
I think the thing that bothers some people the most is Lee did this without hurting anyone.
Lee mastered the art of inspiring without fighting.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
…
One thing about Lee is undeniable he has done more to inspire people into learning martial arts than anyone else.
I think the thing that bothers some people the most is Lee did this without hurting anyone.
…
[/quote]
I don’t think that bothers anyone in the least.
What bothers some of us is that some people make outrageous claims about Bruce Lee that appear to have no basis in reality.
We know that Bruce Lee was a master self promoter and admire him for his ability at promotion as much as we admire his physical attributes.
What bothers us skeptics is the way we are talked down to by people that don’t understand.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Tournaments are not all they are made out to be. I have to wonder how many of you have actually been in one. [/quote]
Yes, but the funny thing is Lee didn’t enter ANY of them. He never faced the best of his day and never proved himself as the best. Therefore, he cannot 33 years later, be considered the best. PERIOD!
Finally, something that we can both agree on. He was an inspiration, because of his films, to many.
[quote] I think the thing that bothers some people the most is Lee did this without hurting anyone.
Lee mastered the art of inspiring without fighting.
[/quote]
I agree…again.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
swivel wrote:
you guys are right, there is no fight record to measure and rank bruce lee. so you can’t call him a champion, but that doesn’t make him a nothing. how do you discount a statement like lebell’s when he say’s “bruce lee was the greatest martial artist of his time ?” how do you discount the respect that joe lewis and my man chuck norris have for the guy, enough respect to study with him ? good grief ! sounds like those guys who still argue that miles davis couldn’t play.
I never once stated that Bruce Lee did not understand and was not good at martial arts.
The Harlem Globetrotters (do they still do exhibitions?) were incredible with a basketball. All sorts of trick shots and incredible sound knowledge of the game. BUT…they are not going to be beating any NBA team.
See the difference?
[/quote]
well, the nba hall of fame is just about 90 minutes away so…
globetrotters did beat the very best the nba had to offer, the minneapolis lakers, 2 games in a row.
wilt chamberlain played for the globetrotters.
in 60 years there have been just 258 electees into the nba hall of fame, and just 5 teams, one of which is the globetrotters.
[quote]swivel wrote:
ZEB wrote:
swivel wrote:
you guys are right, there is no fight record to measure and rank bruce lee. so you can’t call him a champion, but that doesn’t make him a nothing. how do you discount a statement like lebell’s when he say’s “bruce lee was the greatest martial artist of his time ?” how do you discount the respect that joe lewis and my man chuck norris have for the guy, enough respect to study with him ? good grief ! sounds like those guys who still argue that miles davis couldn’t play.
I never once stated that Bruce Lee did not understand and was not good at martial arts.
The Harlem Globetrotters (do they still do exhibitions?) were incredible with a basketball. All sorts of trick shots and incredible sound knowledge of the game. BUT…they are not going to be beating any NBA team.
See the difference?
well, the nba hall of fame is just about 90 minutes away so…
globetrotters did beat the very best the nba had to offer, the minneapolis lakers, 2 games in a row.
wilt chamberlain played for the globetrotters.
in 60 years there have been just 258 electees into the nba hall of fame, and just 5 teams, one of which is the globetrotters.
[/quote]
Yea, back in the 60’s or earlier they had quite a team. But generally as the years went by they were not beating any NBA team and that was the point.
I agree the idol worship does get overdone. However Lee was a good martial artist who was absolutely dedicated in his training. Any film of him you watch it comes through.
I really don’t care if he was unbeatable or not at this point.
Joe Frazier is considered a great boxer, but I have never seen a scarier, more viscious beating, than the beatdown George Foreman put on Frazier. Ali is definately the man to get in the ring with Foreman after that.
Lee had good ideas. Ideas that came through constant training alone and with partners. Those who trained with Lee sing his praises.
I’ll say this, those who say he would easily get crushed by someone from the UFC have an overinflated opinion of the UFC.
I don’t mean to put those guys down because they have balls and great heart to do what they do. But I am almost always disappointed by the punching and I have never been impressed with the kicking skills I have seen.
Time and time again I have seen UFC fighters just blank out when they have had clear openings. Like when Hughes picked a guy up and walked around the ring before dumping him.
Or Garcia vs Koschek on TUF. When Koschek got into a good position to start bombing elbows and just stopped. Or when Koschek tried to tackle Garcia and got kneed in the forehead hard. As soon as I saw him going in I knew what was going to happen.
I don’t think Lee would run out of ideas like that in close and he certainly had kicking and punching skills.
I’ll show you the guy I would have liked to have seen Lee fight.
http://www.americanisshinryukarate.com/isshinryu_kata_shimabuku.htm
Check out his kusanku or sunsu
[quote]Sifu wrote:
I agree the idol worship does get overdone. However Lee was a good martial artist who was absolutely dedicated in his training. Any film of him you watch it comes through.[/quote]
I know what you mean-when I watch the Rocky flicks I can see the intensity in Stallones eyes. And the way he hits the speed bag and moves in the ring prove that he surely was one of the best boxers who ever lived…probably THE best.
That makes about as much sense as saying that you could tell Lee was a good martial artists by his films.
Good, because no one will ever know for sure as he never tested himself against the best of his day.
Some of the best fights (in boxing) that I ever saw had Ali in them. There is a man who indeed tested himself against the best of his day!
I think he had some good ideas for sure. And those who trained with him liked him.
No not really. UFC figthers train on regular basis to compete. And they train in all facets of the game: ground, striking, kicking etc.
Lee never trained to compete at that level. Nor, did he train in grappling on any sort of serious level if at all.
He was just a man who had decent martial arts skills and used them and his charisma to star in Kung-Fu flicks. And he had “some” interesting ideas.
The rest is all myth…
That’s because you want it to look like a Kung-Fu movie. But your own hero stated that “fighting is chaotic.” Is chaos pretty?
Think about it.
The UFC and Pride fighters are good at what they do and anyone who steps inside their domain without having the skill level and training that they have will get crushed. And that includes Lee if he were alive and in his prime!
I don’t think you could find any actor that would defeat a UFC fighter in the Octagon.
Yea, I think that sometimes when I watch an NFL game. I say why didn’t that running back cut to thr right he had open ground. But you see when you are actually involved in the “battle” things look different…That’s why sports fans like you and me are not actually competing.
Yea…you me and thousands of other “fans” knew. Then there’s that whole thing about actually doing it.
(clears throat) HE WAS A MOVIE STAR Really stop it you’re too old for this…
Lee acted, wrote AND practiced Kung-Fu, Jeet Kune Do. He wasn’t a fighter per se I bet you to stop the idol worship.
http://www.americanisshinryukarate.com/isshinryu_kata_shimabuku.htm
Check out his kusanku or sunsu[/quote]
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I agree the idol worship does get overdone. However Lee was a good martial artist who was absolutely dedicated in his training. Any film of him you watch it comes through.
I know what you mean-when I watch the Rocky flicks I can see the intensity in Stallones eyes. And the way he hits the speed bag and moves in the ring prove that he surely was one of the best boxers who ever lived…probably THE best.
…[/quote]
Hey, don’t pick on Rocky!
Stallone is better with the speedbag than I am.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I agree the idol worship does get overdone. However Lee was a good martial artist who was absolutely dedicated in his training. Any film of him you watch it comes through.
I know what you mean-when I watch the Rocky flicks I can see the intensity in Stallones eyes. And the way he hits the speed bag and moves in the ring prove that he surely was one of the best boxers who ever lived…probably THE best.
…
Hey, don’t pick on Rocky!
Stallone is better with the speedbag than I am.
[/quote]
Actually, I think he looked great as a boxer in those Rocky films. I saw a 1980’s interview with him and they asked him “did you ever think of stepping in the ring for real?”
He answered with a resounding NO.
He said that the two rounds he went with Joe Frazier who they were thinking of casting in the Mr. T role were enough for him. Frazier, without trying, broke one of his ribs and gave him four stitches over one eye!
There really is a difference between reality and film…I know it’s hard to believe for the Bruce Lee worshippers…but reality has a way of being quite a bit different than choreographed combat. 
Oh and Stallone was also known for his street fights when growing up…
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I know what you mean-when I watch the Rocky flicks I can see the intensity in Stallones eyes. And the way he hits the speed bag and moves in the ring prove that he surely was one of the best boxers who ever lived…probably THE best.[/quote]
A quaint condescension, but more than a little disingenious. Lee trained with other acclaimed martial artists in a martial capacity, all of whom were at the very least impressed with his legitimate martial arts skills. He also trained for film, but that doesn’t put him in the realm of boxing wannabes like Stallone, Mickey Rourke or Tony Danza [1].
‘That level’ didn’t exist back then. The closest corrolary [2] would be street fighting and dojo feuds – which Lee HAD trained to compete in.
He trained in grappling with AAU National Judo Champion Gene Lebell.
[quote]He was just a man who had decent martial arts skills and used them and his charisma to star in Kung-Fu flicks. And he had “some” interesting ideas.
The rest is all myth…[/quote]
Basically true, but certainly an exaggeration. Lee had excellent martial arts skills, many of them well documented and witnessed.
If Lee were alive today, he would have adapted his nutrition and training to absorb the best of what UFC had to offer. That’s the basis of philosophy of Jeet Kune Do.
You realise that by ‘yelling’ the opposite extreme (he was just skinny asian actor vs. he was an invincible superman), you’re acting exactly as childishly as you accuse others of acting.
-Glee
[1] Not to remove from these guys’ other accomplishments.
[2] Arguably BEYOND the level of UFC.
Why is anyone arguing that Bruce Lee was “the best”? You don’t know one way or the other. What if I feel that Jet Li is the best? What the fuck are you gonna do? Have your dad beat up my dad? Shit, I can meet you in the school yard at 3. This argument is stupid. He was good at marketing himself. He was a good fighter in movies. He impressed other martial artists of his time period. He was not a God. Can we argue about something else now or will this shit simply go onward into eternity?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
He was just a man who had decent martial arts skills and used them and his charisma to star in Kung-Fu flicks. And he had “some” interesting ideas.
The rest is all myth…
[/quote]
zeb,i agree w/ you on the idol worship,
but this description is more fitting to someone like van damme. bruce lee was a master as is evidenced by the life of his students who have become masters, as well as the recognition, respect, and friendship afforded him by the entire martial arts community, including those superstars mentioned in the thread above norris,lebell,lewis,inosanto-for over 30 years.
those guys, their experiences with bruce lee, and the work that bruce lee began to that continues to flourish and thrive today weighs just a wee bit more than mere making movies on the scale of contribution.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
… Can we argue about something else now or will this shit simply go onward into eternity?[/quote]
Eternity!
[quote]Gleemonex wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I know what you mean-when I watch the Rocky flicks I can see the intensity in Stallones eyes. And the way he hits the speed bag and moves in the ring prove that he surely was one of the best boxers who ever lived…probably THE best.
A quaint condescension, but more than a little disingenious. Lee trained with other acclaimed martial artists in a martial capacity, all of whom were at the very least impressed with his legitimate martial arts skills. He also trained for film, but that doesn’t put him in the realm of boxing wannabes like Stallone, Mickey Rourke or Tony Danza [1].
Lee never trained to compete at that level.
‘That level’ didn’t exist back then. The closest corrolary [2] would be street fighting and dojo feuds – which Lee HAD trained to compete in.
Nor, did he train in grappling on any sort of serious level if at all.
He trained in grappling with AAU National Judo Champion Gene Lebell.
He was just a man who had decent martial arts skills and used them and his charisma to star in Kung-Fu flicks. And he had “some” interesting ideas.
The rest is all myth…
Basically true, but certainly an exaggeration. Lee had excellent martial arts skills, many of them well documented and witnessed.
The UFC and Pride fighters are good at what they do and anyone who steps inside their domain without having the skill level and training that they have will get crushed. And that includes Lee if he were alive and in his prime!
If Lee were alive today, he would have adapted his nutrition and training to absorb the best of what UFC had to offer. That’s the basis of philosophy of Jeet Kune Do.
(clears throat) HE WAS A MOVIE STAR Really stop it you’re too old for this…
You realise that by ‘yelling’ the opposite extreme (he was just skinny asian actor vs. he was an invincible superman), you’re acting exactly as childishly as you accuse others of acting.
-Glee
[1] Not to remove from these guys’ other accomplishments.
[2] Arguably BEYOND the level of UFC.[/quote]
I already stated that from what I could tell he was a decent martial artist, pay attention.
And he did not train with Gene LeBell for more than two months, do some research.
As for who was the best back then; they had tournaments and Lee chose not to compete. Those tournaments got very rough, read some interviews with Chuck Norris who won many championships in the early 70’s when Lee was focused on being a movie star.
Let the Lee myth die…It really needs to die