Bruce Lee's Stats?

Off Topic
101

Elvis Presley was also a martial artist.
He could knock the top off a jar of peanut butter faster than any human alive.
All kidding aside. Bruce was an inspiration to us when we were growing up. In his films like in real life he was the underdog who came out on top because of determination and discipline. I remember giving myself multiple head injuries trying to work the nunchuks like he did. LOL.

Don’t you dare disrespect his memory.
We Bruce fans will find you and use our nunchaku skills to put a hurtin on your asses…

102

If all you can do is bite then you better fucking bite! In a real fight you fight right up to the point you get your arse handed to you. You never just laydown and take it. You would regret it later. Ive never regretted anything i did in a fight, only the situations i was too much of a coward to stand up for myself. Taking a beating is less painfull. What part of bruces known personality would indicate that he would just say, “wow, my options are limited? i will just give up!” If the guy didnt have a rejoinder for the “i will start biting you”, then he probably would of been startled when bit.

Biting might give you a chance. It might not. Do you have a choice? i swear, This accentuating minor points that are often debatable is how everything from fitness to martial arts gets fucked up.

Some Chi masters going to turn around and say his unbeatable chi energy will protect him from submission holds. Then all these wanna be BJJ fighters are gonna be fucked. Might have to start biting.

103

I’d imagine most people on this site are pretty big guys, yet it seems they are intimidated by LITTLE guys like Bruce. And just don’t want to think that someone could be little and powerful, strong or deadly.

I am not a Bruce Lee fanatic who idolises everything he did, but I have a tonne of respect for his ability and attitude. An attitude that a lot of people here need to aquire … “take what is useful and reject what is useless”.

I realise this site is not a martials arts site, and Bruce Lee threads have been going around in circles for years (and are so boring) but I can’t help expanding a little on some points.

The 1 inch punch is real, if you think it isn’t, it shows you haven’t got a clue how to punch. A punch is not a triceps extension.

Bruce considered the best fighter he knew was William Cheung, his friend from Hong Kong who took him into training with Yip Man. Will used to hold the record for greatest number of punches per second. I remember a story of Will getting ambushed by knife wielding thugs in his cabin on a boat, he beat them until they ran, then lay down and realised he had a knife sticking out of his back. Bruce and Will used to fight in Hong Kong in all out organised weekly street fights, there were 3 rules I think, can’t remember them but “no eyes attacks” was one, I think. These were bloody serious combat bouts. My point is, he wasn’t just an actor he had a tonne of street cred. Most people are surprised to learn that they had to SLOW DOWN his fight shots in the films, because people couldn’t see him.

I don’t remember his strength stats but know he could break a wooden board with a sidekick - when it was in the air. ie he would hold it out at arms length, drop it, and kick it in two before it hit the ground. He had very fast explosive strength. He might have used smaller weights, but he might have used them at incredible speeds. Maybe he would have been better off using larger weights, maybe his attitudes would have changed over the years.

His martial arts system involves a lot of grappling and is based largely on western FENCING. He thought it was the best system against multiple opponents, at least as a base to start from.

I’m glad to see some posters here have a clue about martial arts, and others who may not have experience at least have an open mind and / or look for the facts.

What bugs me is that instead of looking at someone like Bruce Lee and wondering what can be learnt from him, people seem to be looking at him, and trying to dismiss him as insignificant simply based on his size.

The fact is if you took everything about Bruce Lee - his attitude, determination and philosophy of looking for what works, if you changed absolutely nothing EXCEPT THE WEIGHT HE TRAINED WITH AND THE REPS AND SETS - you’d probably have one ferocious giant bodybuilder.

104

I haven’t seen too many people disrespecting Bruce Lee. I think everyone knows he was a great athlete and in excellent physical condition.

There are two kinds of posters in this thread. Those that love Bruce but refuse to believe he was superhuman and those that love Bruce and think he was superhuman.

105

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I haven’t seen too many people disrespecting Bruce Lee. I think everyone knows he was a great athlete and in excellent physical condition.

There are two kinds of posters in this thread. Those that love Bruce but refuse to believe he was superhuman and those that love Bruce and think he was superhuman.[/quote]

Well said. There are lots of us that admire him but can still seperate myths from men.

106

On chi,

There is one thing that people who call chi “nonsense” have not considered, and that is the possibility that the mystical aspect is instead being used as a sort of analogy, metaphor, or learning template for making a point.

For example, in learning basic chemistry, one uses dot diagrams to represent the amount of electrons a chemical has to donate. This is clearly absurd, as electrons do not stay still, are not in one place with respect to the nucleus, don’t “orbit” the nucleus and are not even strictly localizable. However, the idea of representing electrons as dots is very effective in teaching the basic concepts of chemical bonding. As the student learns more, they progress to other representations of electrons, equally absurd in some aspect, but equally useful for teaching another.

There are a bunch of people (and some “yodas”) who think chi will stop bullets, there are a bunch of people and teachers who think chi is complete nonsense, and there are some people who understand that the concept of chi is possibly bio-electric energy (I’m skeptical, but still on the fence about whether chi has any real physical presence), should at least be understood with a Chinese cultural perspective, and regardless of whether it has a phsyical presence or not, the concept of chi is useful at helping students to think about what they are trying to do.

Just my two cents.

107

I really hate posting this and I wanted to avoid it…but I just can’t I’m sorry.

I want to like the image but…

What martial arts titles did he hold?

Did he beat the best of his day in competition?

Does he have verifiable impressive strength lifts for his weight, to his credit?

The night that he died he was supposedly cheating on his wife and was taken by ambulance from her apartment. Is this true or simply a story that was perpetrated by many credible newspapers and TV stations?

He was the first Kung Fu action star in America…um that’s good.

And his wife certainly knows how to cash in on the image…um and that’s good for her economically.

108

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
Gleemonex wrote:

You’re absolutely right – I can’t speak such silliness because I’ve never been Bruce Lee in an arm bar.

Have you?

Why do I get the feeling that you’re like fourteen years old?

It doesn’t matter if it’s Bruce lee or anybody else in the arm bar. A bite still won’t get them out of it.[/quote]

Is that a yes, or a no?

Anyhow, I believe Beatnik answered your concerns about biting quite handily.

And here’s the response to your concerns about the inescapable arm bar: Shoot Wrestling Armbar Escape - Grapplearts

[quote]So if you kick someone in the nuts, or gouge their eyes, or bite a chunk out of their forearm, they’ll be completely unaffected? Oooooooooooo-kay.

We’ll talk some more once you’ve been in an ACTUAL fight. Let me know how that mouth full of forearm works out for you.[/quote]

Argumentum ad hominem. AZMojo 1 point penalty.

How about we wait until you have a sister. Then let me know how being bitten works out for you.

[quote]Everybody knows a second-rate boxer, wrestler, or MMA guy would destroy your typical “martial artist” in a street fight. Everybody except maybe the martial artist, of course.

Don’t they have some western boxers in UFC, which is far closer to a street fight than Queensbury boxing?

www.sherdog.com/stats/stylelossrecords_ratio.htm

-Glee

Your point? Boxers can’t grapple? Okay, that’s true.[/quote]

So you’ve changed your mind that “a second-rate boxer” “would destroy your typical “martial artist” in a street fight”?

[quote]So, you like the chances of a TKD black belt over an experienced boxer? How about Aikido? Maybe White Crane kung fu? Please. Again, I’m talking about real fights, not dojo theory.
[/quote]

Any conjecture of style vs style becomes highly subjective. But if you want to know what I think:

TKD is more of a combat sport than a martial art, especially WTF. Consider that WTF TKD doesn’t allow punches to the head in sparring tournaments, even with headgear and gloves.

Aikido is an internal art. If the Aikidoka saw the attack coming (a big if, for an experienced boxer’s jab), he would be able to respond to it and prevail. If not, the first surprise punch would probably take him out.

White Crane Kung Fu is a Tibetan art adapted to cold weather, so it makes its own style sacrifices, mainly to kicks (for footing on icy ground) and attack ferocity (as minor injuries in cold weather could lead to excessive (in the estimation of Zen philosophy) harm). I’d give the White Crane practitioner the edge, only because White Crane footwork is so strange and unpredictable.

As concerns Bruce Lee specifically, he got into fights and brawls on a regular basis – he certainly wasn’t the paper tiger you seem to imagine when you use the term ‘martial artist’.

-Glee

109

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
On chi,

There is one thing that people who call chi “nonsense” have not considered, and that is the possibility that the mystical aspect is instead being used as a sort of analogy, metaphor, or learning template for making a point.

For example, in learning basic chemistry, one uses dot diagrams to represent the amount of electrons a chemical has to donate. This is clearly absurd, as electrons do not stay still, are not in one place with respect to the nucleus, don’t “orbit” the nucleus and are not even strictly localizable. However, the idea of representing electrons as dots is very effective in teaching the basic concepts of chemical bonding. As the student learns more, they progress to other representations of electrons, equally absurd in some aspect, but equally useful for teaching another.

There are a bunch of people (and some “yodas”) who think chi will stop bullets, there are a bunch of people and teachers who think chi is complete nonsense, and there are some people who understand that the concept of chi is possibly bio-electric energy (I’m skeptical, but still on the fence about whether chi has any real physical presence), should at least be understood with a Chinese cultural perspective, and regardless of whether it has a phsyical presence or not, the concept of chi is useful at helping students to think about what they are trying to do.

Just my two cents.[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head. Chi is used to explain things that are not well understood. Some of these things are real.

It is also used by charlatans to sell their product.

110

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Sifu wrote:
DLboy wrote:
Biting, eye gouging, and other dirty tactics do NOT work, EVER, unless you’re in an advantageous position. I could see dirty tactics working if you’re the one that is in a superior position.

I once had a classmate kick me in the eye with his big toe. My legs just collapsed instantly. My central nervous system just shut down. That was one of the most excruciating blows I have ever taken. Getting kicked in the nuts does’nt hurt as bad as that.

I had a neighbor who when he was in jail his cellmate tried to rape him, the thing that saved him was he bit the guys dick off.[/quote]

Well said, Sifu.

http://sportzfun.com/v-web/gallery/albums/wrestling/face_full.jpg

-Glee

111

His lift numbers are really meaningless, because he wasn’t a powerlifter. He was a martial artist.

There comes a point in a martial artists training where competition is no longer important.

When Lee was a young street punk he and his gang used to go out and get into fights with other Hong Kong gang members. Gang members who knew Kung Fu also.

These weren’t sporting tournaments these were gang bangers fighting it out over turf. This is why Lee had to leave Hong Kong and come back to America.

There is a real problem with people who did not fully understand Lee’s philosophy or who only got a part of it.

For example there are many who know the “absorb what is useful, reject what is not” philosophy. These same people use this philosophy to reject the second part of this philosophy the all important caveat.

The full philososphy is: absorb what is useful, reject what is not. But before you reject something you should fully understand why it doesn’t work.

There is an entire generation of martial artists, who have gone around applying the first half of that philosophy, while ignoring or not knowing the second. It has done a lot of damage to the martial arts.

112

White crane kung Fu is the basis of almost all Okinawan karate. The reason for this is Fujian provence in eastern China had trade and cultural ties to Okinawa. Tibet is a long way from
Fujian.

According to one of my teachers, teachers, the average black belt would get their clock cleaned by a club boxer because they are not used to guarding their head or taking abuse.

A human biting another human is extremely dangerous because all of the bacteria in the mouth are capable of living in a human.

The infections you can get from a human bite can be deadly. Necrotizing fasciitis (flesh eating baacteria) is group A strep bacteria that causes strep throat.

113

[quote]Gleemonex wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
Gleemonex wrote:

You’re absolutely right – I can’t speak such silliness because I’ve never been Bruce Lee in an arm bar.

Have you?

It doesn’t matter if it’s Bruce lee or anybody else in the arm bar. A bite still won’t get them out of it.

Is that a yes, or a no?

Anyhow, I believe Beatnik answered your concerns about biting quite handily.[/quote]

How’s that? By saying if you could bite, you better? Quite handily indeed.

But, guess what, it still wouldn’t get you out of the submission.[quote]

And here’s the response to your concerns about the inescapable arm bar: www.grapplearts.com/Shooto-Armbar-Escape.htm[/quote]

They must not have filmed the part were he bit the guy.[quote]

So if you kick someone in the nuts, or gouge their eyes, or bite a chunk out of their forearm, they’ll be completely unaffected? Oooooooooooo-kay.

We’ll talk some more once you’ve been in an ACTUAL fight. Let me know how that mouth full of forearm works out for you.

Argumentum ad hominem. AZMojo 1 point penalty.

How about we wait until you have a sister. Then let me know how being bitten works out for you.[/quote]

You kidding, right? So you were bit by a girl, and it hurt really bad. So, now, you believe that biting is the ultimate unarmed combat technique. Does that pretty much sum it up?[quote]

Everybody knows a second-rate boxer, wrestler, or MMA guy would destroy your typical “martial artist” in a street fight. Everybody except maybe the martial artist, of course.

Don’t they have some western boxers in UFC, which is far closer to a street fight than Queensbury boxing?

Your point? Boxers can’t grapple? Okay, that’s true.

So you’ve changed your mind that “a second-rate boxer” “would destroy your typical “martial artist” in a street fight”?[/quote]

Oh, so your changing your definition. By sport fighter, you meant…what exactly? I guess I’m not getting it.
I was defining sport fighter as one who participates in a competitive combat sport(judo, boxing, wrestling, MMA, etc.), with judo specifically being the case in point. How do you define it? Or have you given on your argument that illegal moves in the hands of a non-sport martial artist give him the advantage in a street fight with a trained sport combatant? If so, that’s all you needed to say.[quote]

So, you like the chances of a TKD black belt over an experienced boxer? How about Aikido? Maybe White Crane kung fu? Please. Again, I’m talking about real fights, not dojo theory.

Any conjecture of style vs style becomes highly subjective. But if you want to know what I think:

TKD is more of a combat sport than a martial art, especially WTF. Consider that WTF TKD doesn’t allow punches to the head in sparring tournaments, even with headgear and gloves.[/quote]

And that, my friend, is precisely what makes it a non-combat sport. Everybody’s deadly when they’re not getting hit back.[quote]

Aikido is an internal art. If the Aikidoka saw the attack coming (a big if, for an experienced boxer’s jab), he would be able to respond to it and prevail. If not, the first surprise punch would probably take him out.[/quote]

Okay, we’ll take that as a no. [quote]

White Crane Kung Fu is a Tibetan art adapted to cold weather, so it makes its own style sacrifices, mainly to kicks (for footing on icy ground) and attack ferocity (as minor injuries in cold weather could lead to excessive (in the estimation of Zen philosophy) harm). I’d give the White Crane practitioner the edge, only because White Crane footwork is so strange and unpredictable.

As concerns Bruce Lee specifically, he got into fights and brawls on a regular basis – he certainly wasn’t the paper tiger you seem to imagine when you use the term ‘martial artist’.

-Glee[/quote]

I don’t image him a paper tiger, and never said such. My point isn’t even against Bruce lee specifically. It’s against all the uninformed yahoos who still believe that some secret illegal technique is going to save their ass in a street fight, it probably won’t. Think of it more like a public service announcement.

Learn the art if you like the art.
Learn to fight if you want to fight.
They’re not the same thing.

114

[quote]Sifu wrote:
His lift numbers are really meaningless, because he wasn’t a powerlifter. He was a martial artist.[/quote]

Hence, we have no quantifiable proof of his alleged great strength for his size.

Hence, we have no proof of his “real” fighting ability since he never faced and defeated the best of his day.

[quote] When Lee was a young street punk he and his gang used to go out and get into fights with other Hong Kong gang members. Gang members who knew Kung Fu also.These weren’t sporting tournaments these were gang bangers fighting it out over turf. This is why Lee had to leave Hong Kong and come back to America.
[/quote]

More anectodal evidence which may or may not be true. Such is what myths are born of.

There is also a real problem with those who believe the mythology surrounding Lee.

And you realize that Lee did not create this philosophical concept-he "borrowed it from…____________. Come on fill in the blank :slight_smile:

I’m sure that it has. However, what has done even more “damage” to the martial arts is people building up the mythology of the black belt being invincible. And to that end they have promoted, or should I say “allow to be promoted” the myth of Bruce Lee…

115

[quote]Sifu wrote:
White crane kung Fu is the basis of almost all Okinawan karate. The reason for this is Fujian provence in eastern China had trade and cultural ties to Okinawa. Tibet is a long way from
Fujian.[/quote]

It would appear we’re both right:

This is starting to become another subject, but: black belt in what? Various arts and federations treat belts, combat and philosophy differently – especially in North America. My WTF TKD example comes from personal experience. Also, belts are often awarded far too quickly in North America in order to sucker more money out of the students. I can name several local schools (in Eastern Ontario, Canada) in which one could earn a black belt within 3 years. Such ‘black belts’ would definitely get their clocks cleaned, but I don’t consider such individuals true martial artists.

In fact, that might be the disconnect here – if you lot are mentally pitting phony ‘black belts’ against veritable boxers, then phony black belts don’t stand a chance.

-Glee

116

Zeb you obviously have little to no knowledge of martial arts history.

Up until the last century we had no record of martial arts other than oral history and some written texts. All we have of the vast majority of martial artists is the accounts of those who knew them.

Trying to quantify a martial artists ability based upon their lift numbers is ridiculous.

Even if we did have numbers, there is variables like rep speed, range of motion …

Do you have these numbers for Ali, Foreman or Frazier?

117

[quote]AZMojo wrote:

How’s that? By saying if you could bite, you better? Quite handily indeed.

But, guess what, it still wouldn’t get you out of the submission.[/quote]

I never claimed such. But it would certainly help.

[quote]And here’s the response to your concerns about the inescapable arm bar: Shoot Wrestling Armbar Escape - Grapplearts

They must not have filmed the part were he bit the guy.[/quote]

No, but they did film the part where the arm bar isn’t the ultimate technike forevar!!!11!1!! Can we finally stop this bloody reductio ad absurdum arm bar fetishism, and get back to the subject at hand?

No, it doesn’t.

By sport fighter, I meant someone who fights for sport. Crazy, I know.

[quote]I guess I’m not getting it.
I was defining sport fighter as one who participates in a competitive combat sport(judo, boxing, wrestling, MMA, etc.), with judo specifically being the case in point.[/quote]

Perhaps I should have clarified earlier. Sport combat and martial arts are obviously intermingled to various degrees. I contrast a sport fighter and a martial artist by their priorities towards either primarily sporting competition or adversarial combat effectiveness. For example, you don’t see too many Krav Maga tournaments because Krav Maga doesn’t lend itself well to sporting competition. Similarly, I’ve never seen two drunk guys outside a bar wait to pop in a mouthguard and strap on a pair of Everlasts before duking it out over some floozy.

Well, yes. I was hoping it would have been obvious in the fact that I was originally responding to DLBoy’s claim that “Bruce would easily be defeated by a well versed grappler.”. You should have informed yourself before jumping into the fray.

[quote]Aikido is an internal art. If the Aikidoka saw the attack coming (a big if, for an experienced boxer’s jab), he would be able to respond to it and prevail. If not, the first surprise punch would probably take him out.

Okay, we’ll take that as a no.[/quote]

Basically, as western boxing is probably better adapted to the typical street fighting scenario than aikido.

[quote]As concerns Bruce Lee specifically, he got into fights and brawls on a regular basis – he certainly wasn’t the paper tiger you seem to imagine when you use the term ‘martial artist’.

I don’t image him a paper tiger, and never said such. My point isn’t even against Bruce lee specifically.[/quote]

Then why did you start flapping your e-gums at me? I wasn’t even responding to you originally – I was responding specifically to DLBoy’s example of the judo practice session between Lebell and Lee.

-Glee

118

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Zeb you obviously have little to no knowledge of martial arts history.Up until the last century we had no record of martial arts other than oral history and some written texts. All we have of the vast majority of martial artists is the accounts of those who knew them. [/quote]

Is a history degree needed to understand that Bruce Lee never fought and defeated the best of his day? Um…I don’t think so.

they did in fact have tournaments and various leagues where martial artists were allowed to square off against one another to see who the best man was in Lee’s day. Lee never did this…Hence, we don’t know how good he really was.

Others did it…Lee didn’t…

You misunderstood sifu. The point of bringing up his lift numbers was to clarify that while he “looked” strong he may not have actually “been” strong. Nothing to do with his martial arts prowess simply another way to judge his athletic ability or lack thereof. Funny, there seems to be nothing exceptional about his strength THAT HAS BEEN OFFICIALL DOCUMENTED that is. In other words non anecdotal evidence.

No, but then again each of the three that you mention actually proved that they were in fact the best of their day. Lee never did this and those who think he was the best are simply buying into the Bruce Lee myth…which by the way is a heck of a money machine for Linda :slight_smile:

Lee was a good looking (physically) movie star. Um…He seemed fast on film and he always won on film…So did Sly Stallone, do you think he was the greatest boxer of all time? No probably not he’s alive and um well you get the idea.

119

I didn’t get my history of White Crane from wikipedia. I got it from my tai chi teacher who is a student of Jwing Ming.

I agree the belt ranking system in the US is practically meaningless. Ranks are only meaningful inside the dojo the were awarded in.

120

[quote]Gleemonex wrote:

How do you define it? Or have you given on your argument that illegal moves in the hands of a non-sport martial artist give him the advantage in a street fight with a trained sport combatant? If so, that’s all you needed to say.

Well, yes. I was hoping it would have been obvious in the fact that I was originally responding to DLBoy’s claim that “Bruce would easily be defeated by a well versed grappler.”. You should have informed yourself before jumping into the fray.[/quote]

You were responding by saying “Lee wasn’t a sports fighter, he was a martial artist. See the difference?” Implying that the two are mutually exclusive and that he would have an answer for Lebell’s submission hold. If his only answer is a bite, that’s pretty weak. Informed enough? My point is on task.

You, however, with your rants on the human animal’s carnivorous dentition, and possible escapes from arm-bars, are the one who tends to stray. But, I see you have a similar conversation going in another thread, with similar off-course arguments, so I’ll let you concentrate on that one.[quote]

As concerns Bruce Lee specifically, he got into fights and brawls on a regular basis – he certainly wasn’t the paper tiger you seem to imagine when you use the term ‘martial artist’.[/quote]

How exactly do you know this? Was he fighting between film shoots? Who did he fight? Has anybody come forward to discuss their fight? With Bruce’s “regular” fight and brawl schedule, you would assume a witness would surface who actually saw ONE of these deadly no rules contests.[quote]

Then why did you start flapping your e-gums at me? I wasn’t even responding to you originally – I was responding specifically to DLBoy’s example of the judo practice session between Lebell and Lee.

-Glee[/quote]

E-gums:) I like that. Nice edit so you could squeeze it in, too.