British Race/Immigration Issues

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

Having just parked myself in London for the next few months, I am finding the parallels and differences between here and the U.S. quite interesting.

For instance, the issues of race and immigration came forward in this new poll by Gallup, which finds that upwards of half the population wanted foreigners encouraged to leave, and almost 2/3 fear that race relations are so poor that there may be violence (it’s unclear if they meant rioting or individual violence).

Apparently this poll was conducted on the 40th anniversary of the Enoch Powell “Rivers of Blood” speech ( Rivers of Blood speech - Wikipedia ) on immigration without assimilation.

See this post for more on that: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGYyZDBiOTRiMGRiOTFlYzVhMWExMzdjODVlNmUwNjk=

I wouldn’t have thought tensions in the UK would be worse than in the U.S., but that seems to be the case. Particularly given the information from the Derbyshire post I linked immediately above that informs that Powell’s views were heavily influenced by a trip to the U.S. in the 60s.

Assuming the poll is accurate, why have conditions deteriorated so in the UK, while improving so in the U.S.? I’m interested in opinions - but my guess is it’s a numbers game for the UK, combined with the lack of policies to encourage assimilation.

2

Two thoughts:

  1. Perhaps there’s more of an “English” national identity? I’m not sure there has ever been a corresponding “American-ness.” What - after all - aside from attachment to a set of ideas (America being a great “metaphysical reality”), what does it really mean to be “American”??

  2. perhaps the the downturn in the English economy is responsible? What if the poll was taken two years ago?

3

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Two thoughts:

  1. Perhaps there’s more of an “English” national identity? I’m not sure there has ever been a corresponding “American-ness.” What - after all - aside from attachment to a set of ideas (America being a great “metaphysical reality”), what does it really mean to be “American”??

  2. perhaps the the downturn in the English economy is responsible? What if the poll was taken two years ago?

[/quote]

You are exactly right. Britain is a much more homogeneous society. The introduction of different people is much more upsetting to British people than to Americans; we’re more used to it.

While immigration is long-term very beneficial to societies, it can be very upsetting to people who are not used to it.

4

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
2. perhaps the the downturn in the English economy is responsible? What if the poll was taken two years ago?

[/quote]

The results were very different, as the issues were tied to racism. This has changed now as the immigrants they are complaining about are white.

5

I think what the European governments are trying to pull off with regards to the EU and its constitution are also part of the problem.

6

I am going to find it very difficult to enter into this thread as it is a very personal issue to me.

I have witnessed my country being changed beyond recognition since 1997. The main reason is that the labour government abandoned all immigration controls.

Some say they did this in order to invite a new social class into the country that would (presumably) be a large part of their core voters, where traditionally the working classes had been voting conservative.

We now have a situation where we are about to see English minority cities in places such as Leicester, where all the various religious and immigrant groups live in their ghettoes, they have simply moved their nation of birth to a small patch of england and effectively colonised it. Not integrated. Totally separated from the host nation.

Now, we have always seen immigration into England, I went to school with Potuguese, Polish, Irish, Welsh, Jamaican, Mauritian and Scottish children and we all got along fine. We also see immigration from throughout Europe, again, not a big problem as it was largely small-scale immigration and these people are culturally very similar to us, and so they integrated well whilst still retaining much of their cultural identity.

However, we also have enourmous levels of immigration from Pakistan (specifically the region where wahabism is particularly prevalent), Bangladesh, India and up until recent years this has not been a huge problem. But, these cultures are very different from Anglo-saxon culture and as such they are unable to integrate and simply live in their own towns, go to their own shops and live effectively in their own worlds.

The big issues as I see them:

  • English people have been denied a cultural identity for 50 years as people feat it is somehow “racist”. This is something that needs seriously tackling by our pathetic government.

  • Immigration is on such a huge scale that services are being overwhelmed and resentment is building up amoung the population.

  • I have no problem with large scale Polish, west indian and other European immigration, as we are all culturally very similar.

  • I DO have a problem with mass immigration from the Indian subcontinent, especially the masses of Muslim immigrants who make no effort to hide their dislike of this country.

  • I also have a problem with the mass immigration from Nigeria, which is practically a pirate state, and Somalia, again, simply because of cultural differences and the ridiculous numbers involved.

Now. Before I am lambasted as being hate filled and racist, I simply want MANAGED immigration. A points system if you will, along with a sensible quota. But for at least a few years we have had our fill.

7

[quote]Joe D. wrote:
…

The big issues as I see them:

  • English people have been denied a cultural identity for 50 years as people feat it is somehow “racist”. This is something that needs seriously tackling by our pathetic government.

  • Immigration is on such a huge scale that services are being overwhelmed and resentment is building up amoung the population.

  • I have no problem with large scale Polish, west indian and other European immigration, as we are all culturally very similar.

  • I DO have a problem with mass immigration from the Indian subcontinent, especially the masses of Muslim immigrants who make no effort to hide their dislike of this country.

  • I also have a problem with the mass immigration from Nigeria, which is practically a pirate state, and Somalia, again, simply because of cultural differences and the ridiculous numbers involved.

Now. Before I am lambasted as being hate filled and racist, I simply want MANAGED immigration. A points system if you will, along with a sensible quota. But for at least a few years we have had our fill.[/quote]

This story seems to buttress your point:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/04/britain-cancels-st-george-parade-out-of.html

Monday, April 21, 2008
Britain Cancels St. George’s Parade Over Fear of Muslim Riots

8

These stories are sadly very common. Moreso because the people implementing the policies are doing so not at the request of the groups that allegedly may be offended, but rather by the self-loathing people that run this country.

I cannot stress just how much of an Orwellian feel there has been to the UK for a number of years. Everyone knows the problems with mass immigration, but no-one is allowed to mention it. Our state-media, the BBC is a huge part of the problem. Again, English pride has been somehow equated to vile racism, and therefore completely quashed in a vain and misguided effort to not “offend” our new residents.

9

[quote]Joe D. wrote:
These stories are sadly very common. Moreso because the people implementing the policies are doing so not at the request of the groups that allegedly may be offended, but rather by the self-loathing people that run this country.

I cannot stress just how much of an Orwellian feel there has been to the UK for a number of years. Everyone knows the problems with mass immigration, but no-one is allowed to mention it. Our state-media, the BBC is a huge part of the problem. Again, English pride has been somehow equated to vile racism, and therefore completely quashed in a vain and misguided effort to not “offend” our new residents.[/quote]

Why don’t you change the situation then? I was under the impression that Britain was a democracy.

10

[quote]lixy wrote:
Joe D. wrote:
These stories are sadly very common. Moreso because the people implementing the policies are doing so not at the request of the groups that allegedly may be offended, but rather by the self-loathing people that run this country.

I cannot stress just how much of an Orwellian feel there has been to the UK for a number of years. Everyone knows the problems with mass immigration, but no-one is allowed to mention it. Our state-media, the BBC is a huge part of the problem. Again, English pride has been somehow equated to vile racism, and therefore completely quashed in a vain and misguided effort to not “offend” our new residents.

Why don’t you change the situation then? I was under the impression that Britain was a democracy.[/quote]

How does one vote out a pervasive miasma of political correctness & self loathing?

11

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
lixy wrote:
Joe D. wrote:
These stories are sadly very common. Moreso because the people implementing the policies are doing so not at the request of the groups that allegedly may be offended, but rather by the self-loathing people that run this country.

I cannot stress just how much of an Orwellian feel there has been to the UK for a number of years. Everyone knows the problems with mass immigration, but no-one is allowed to mention it. Our state-media, the BBC is a huge part of the problem. Again, English pride has been somehow equated to vile racism, and therefore completely quashed in a vain and misguided effort to not “offend” our new residents.

Why don’t you change the situation then? I was under the impression that Britain was a democracy.

How does one vote out a pervasive miasma of political correctness & self loathing?[/quote]

I suppose by voting for the people who pledge to stop this alleged mass immigration and restore English pride. If this has been a problem “for a number of years”, there has got to be a political organization that’s exploiting this niche. I doubt it’ll attract a lot of people, but Joe’s got nothing to lose by trying.

I am not very familiar with Britain, but it seems to me that the country is quite selective when it comes to who it’s letting in. The authorities are also quite determined to secure the borders in the best possible way and trespassers face harsh punishments (compared to other places).

While I find talk about “English pride” racist, I recognize the Brits’ right to do whatever the hell they like inside their own borders. Most British people I’ve interacted with would not agree with Joe’s perspective and I think that it has to do with the abuses that occurred during its imperialitic past and what the country suffered because of Nazism. In fact, from the few historical documents I read, it looks to me like London was trying really hard to deceive the Brits about what was going on in the colonies. I believe that no informed people would want atrocities committed in their name and on their dime. But I digress…

So, Katz, what do you think is the best course of action for people like Joe? Bitching about “political correctness & self loathing” is one thing, but making suggestions is better.

12

From my experiences as a British citizen the majority of the nation have problems with the immigrants that do very little to try and intigrate. From what i’ve seen this seems to be the older generation as many have made little attempt to learn the language and only live in areas that have an immigrant majority. I suppose these areas could be descirbed as “ghettos.”

On the other hand i studied with many immigrants, mainly from pakistan, and found them to be incredibly hard working. Many of them went on to be doctors and were very much accepted in to society, not because they were trying to be British but because they contributed to society and didn’t rely on benefits.

13

I firmly believe that nations have a right to encourage, foster, and protect their cultural and national heritage.

Yes, even “white” countries.

The only countries having any business celebrating multiculturalism and melting pot society are in North and South America.

You don’t see Pakistan deliberately importing white Christians and Chinese Buddhists in the spirit of multiculturalism.

14

[quote]lixy wrote:

I suppose by voting for the people who pledge to stop this alleged mass immigration and restore English pride. If this has been a problem “for a number of years”, there has got to be a political organization that’s exploiting this niche. I doubt it’ll attract a lot of people, but Joe’s got nothing to lose by trying.
[/quote]

Well, for one thing, Joe apparently risks being accused of racism. See below:

Would please explain why talk of English pride is “racist”?? That’s a little bizarre, Lixy. Did you really mean to say this?

[quote]
So, Katz, what do you think is the best course of action for people like Joe? Bitching about “political correctness & self loathing” is one thing, but making suggestions is better.[/quote]

Isn’t bitching the beginning of wisdom? :slight_smile:

Seriously, perhaps the only reasonable course of action is to bitch -in newspaper columns, in books, etc. - a mirror must be held up to all the hand-wringing, and self loathing, and obsequiousness toward Islam, for what it truly is: a form of cultural suicide.

15

[quote]Joe D. wrote:
These stories are sadly very common. Moreso because the people implementing the policies are doing so not at the request of the groups that allegedly may be offended, but rather by the self-loathing people that run this country.

I cannot stress just how much of an Orwellian feel there has been to the UK for a number of years. Everyone knows the problems with mass immigration, but no-one is allowed to mention it. Our state-media, the BBC is a huge part of the problem. Again, English pride has been somehow equated to vile racism, and therefore completely quashed in a vain and misguided effort to not “offend” our new residents.[/quote]

Not to mention the lack of free speech - the laws against expressing “offensive” opinions are inimical to my American concept of free expression. People are afraid to express their opinions - how can a republic function that way?

16

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Well, for one thing, Joe apparently risks being accused of racism. See below: [/quote]

The opportunity-cost analysis in this situation is a no-brainer.

It’s my personal opinion. Probably due to the fact that I have never understood the concept of patriotism. To me it’s a dangerous folly that, more often than not, leads to human loss on massive scales. I mean, stamping a “proudly made in USA” on a shoe is perfectly OK by me. That’s healthy. Discriminating against people based on their ethnicity, color of skin or citizenship is not acceptable behavior to me. I was always amazed as a kid at the displays of nationalism when the World Cup was on. Me, I sided with the ones that played best. And don’t even get me started about the Arab, Amazigh, Riffi or Sahrawi pride in my country. I puke everytime some idiot speaks of “pride” because in my experience, more often than not, it’s just a mask for racism.

So, when Joe mentions “English pride” in a thread named “British Race/Immigration Issues”, my race-dar goes haywire. I don’t know the man or what he believes in, but his statement sounds “racist” to my ears. That’s all. Nothing bizarre.

A wise man would bitch about something and show the unwashed masses what to do.

Bitching for the sake of bitching shows that you’re not really thinking with your brain and are, instead, giving in to emotions. Alas, for the majority of people, that’s quite automatic when the issue touches on nationalism or “pride”. This forum is an excellent illustration of that.

Wait…I thought this was about race and immigration. What’s Islam got to do with anything? How the Hell do the 2% of Muslims in the UK threaten British culture?

Shit, the fourth largest religion in the UK is Jedi (true story!). There are about 400,000 Jedi Knights around the country.

Your attitude reminds me of the twats in Saudi Arabia who oppose satellite dishes and the internet because it’s a form of “cultural suicide”. And I find it particularly laughable that Brits, of all people, would be talking about “cultural suicide” seeing how many cultures they pillaged and crushed. Ever been to the Museum of London?

So, again, bitch away, but have the decency to propose some tangible course of action. Appealing to emotions, accusing the bulk of the country of “self-loathing” and instilling fear through doomsday scenarios is beneath your level of intellect. Leave it to the likes of Dubya and Hillary.

17

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
People are afraid to express their opinions - how can a republic function that way?[/quote]

Republic? Are you sure you’re in London and not Londonderry?

18

[quote]lixy wrote:
I suppose by voting for the people who pledge to stop this alleged mass immigration and restore English pride. If this has been a problem “for a number of years”, there has got to be a political organization that’s exploiting this niche. I doubt it’ll attract a lot of people, but Joe’s got nothing to lose by trying.
[/quote] Alleged? Please stop.

As for the political will, the last party leader who voiced concerns lost his job over alleged racism. So don’t sit over there in Sweden, your host nation, and claim to understand the situation here. You clearly do not.

[quote]
I am not very familiar with Britain, but it seems to me that the country is quite selective when it comes to who it’s letting in. The authorities are also quite determined to secure the borders in the best possible way and trespassers face harsh punishments (compared to other places).

[/quote] You are so far off the mark it is ridiculous. We are a world renowned soft touch with immigration, illegal or otherwise, hence why even the Indian community is complaing about immigration. There is no political will to deport people, this has been made very clear from our immigration service officials who are told simply to wave everyone through.

Illegal immigrants are routinely given “indefinite leave to remain” which means they stay here without citizenship. It is the easiest place to get into in the world. Except here we also give free housing, a mark of our society that will soon prove impossible to provide.

[quote]

While I find talk about “English pride” racist, I recognize the Brits’ right to do whatever the hell they like inside their own borders. Most British people I’ve interacted with would not agree with Joe’s perspective and I think that it has to do with the abuses that occurred during its imperialitic past and what the country suffered because of Nazism. In fact, from the few historical documents I read, it looks to me like London was trying really hard to deceive the Brits about what was going on in the colonies. I believe that no informed people would want atrocities committed in their name and on their dime. But I digress…

[/quote] Just a slight digression there. Can we restrict the discussion to sometime in the last 10 years, please, without becoming totally irrelevant. And racist? How? This is the whole fucking point. By not dothing my cap and pleading forgiveness I am in someway a racist? Flying the George cross is deemed offensive and racist, this is the sort of crap I am talking about. And thank you for allowing us to maintain our own borders.

[quote]
So, Katz, what do you think is the best course of action for people like Joe? Bitching about “political correctness & self loathing” is one thing, but making suggestions is better.[/quote]

“Bitching”, please, this is an internet forum, my strong views are just words. How the hell else does one express oneself on the internet? The soviets had a good word for fools who criticised the system and paid the price, I am not one of those people.

As for the course of action. There is none. We complain to each other, build up resentment towards the situation, the government and the people in question and wait for the politicians to wake up to the clusterfuck they have created. Of course, most people think things will inevitably get worse. I am not sure yet.

19

[quote]Joe D. wrote:
Alleged? Please stop. [/quote]

Yes. Alleged until proven otherwise. Show me figures of this “mass immigration” then I’ll drop the “alleged” part.

Do you or do you not agree that your government is a democratic institution? In which case, isn’t the sacking of that person a will of the people?

Don’t get all defensive. I’m just trying to learn here.

I sit where I damn please! I never pretended to understand the situation there. I’ve been to Britain a couple of times, and noticed that the crushing majority (in excess of 90%) of people were White. I’ve got a few childhood friends living there. One is a mathematics lecturer at Oxford and one sells real estate in London. Both are very well integrated, so I evidently am seeing the situation through my own prism. In fact, the only bit I ever caught on TV about an immigration incident in the UK was on the French telly when a couple of French ladies got arrested because the cops found a Chinaman in their trunk. They claim that he sneaked in there and that they’ve never seen him in their life, but they still got five years in jails.

So, yeah, I only go by what I know.

Ok, let’s assume that this is the case.

The question is what is the solution? Do you think that the will of the people isn’t properly represented in the government? If not, please explain how that ever happened. I mean, your country produced Magna Carta for crying out loud.

You’re asking that historical context be discarded? Did I read that right?

Read my reply to Katz.

Look, you allow who you want in your country. If you don’t like your government policies, you lobby it so that they be changed. It’s the whole point of having a democracy.

If you think immigrants are crowding up your cities, taking jobs from the locals or are unable to adhere to the law of the land, kick them out. Build a wall around your country for all I care. Heck, you can put crocodiles in the water around it. If you lobby your government to do any of the following, you won’t hear a beep from me. Much less accusations of racism. It is when you talk about “English pride” that I reserve the right to question your motives.

No sweat.

Read around the forum. Fish posts by etaco, Varqanir or Nephorm. I’m sure you’ll learn how one can express oneself without sounding like a whiny bitch.

Desinit in piscem mulier formosa superne.

How do you know if you don’t try? Once again, you live in a democracy! You’ve got nothing to lose. As Katz pointed out, people could call you names which I already did.

You just said “there is none” referring to “the course of action”. Which is it? Make up your mind.