There’s been a bias against strength training in boxing since my grandfather was fighting. Once you learn the technique the only way to hit harder and faster is to increase the amount of force you can generate and how quickly you can generate it. That can be accomplished through an effective strength training program. The problem is someone might be using Olympic lifts in their program when it’s no real carry over, not unless they’re going to act like Kermit Cintron and jump out of the ring.
For your upperbody I suggest standing cable presses, one armed push ups or incline pressing. To develop rotational power do medicine ball work. For your lower body I suggest just reading this article Dispelling the Glute Myth . It’s very informative and give plenty of exercises to increase what generates the power in a punch, your hips. Most importantly be sure to learn the proper technique and how to shift your weight into punches.
You show me a guy who can squat 500 lbs., and I’ll show you a guy who is gonna get so fucking tired by the fourth round he won’t be able to breath.
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sorry mate ive held my tongue a while but i gotta call bullshit on that[/quote]
Are you hoisting the BS flag because you think it COULD happen, or because you have proof that it has happened/is happening with regularity.
I am pretty sure FightinIrish is using boxing as the reference point. I don’t think I have ever heard of a pro boxer of any weight squatting 500 lbs. So, video of a pro squatting 500 lbs. and then performing well at least 4 rounds into a pro fight would be the proof. I don’t think we will find it.
Since Irish wrote
it should probably be a fighter capable of hitting a legit 500 lb. squat “week of” or a few weeks out from or after the fight. So squating 500 in college and turning pro at 26 isn’t really disproving his statement.
This doesn’t mean a fighter could not train to do it. Just that it doesn’t seem to be the case in boxing because the squat is probably not going to get trained hard and heavy by pro fighters.
It’s not that big squat = bad boxer. It’s that for most people the effort/training to squat a legit 500 lbs (I am assuming raw) means they will be spending a hell of a lot less time learning to box. Even if the athlete/fighter/lifter is in great shape someone who is a better boxer can run them ragged in the ring.
Probably there are people capable of squatting 500 lbs and making to the fourth round but through my limited experience I find that highly unlikely. I was Dling 500 squating close to 400 lbs and I gassed after just two rounds my first time sparing. Now my conditioning is way up but my strength levels are way down. I just don’t think you would be able to maintain that kind of strength along with the conditioning needed in boxing.
[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You show me a guy who can squat 500 lbs., and I’ll show you a guy who is gonna get so fucking tired by the fourth round he won’t be able to breath.
[/quote]
sorry mate ive held my tongue a while but i gotta call bullshit on that[/quote]
[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
im squatting over 425 and have no conditioning issues.
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First, good squat.
Second, you are 75 lbs off of the 500 lb. mark.
Third, are you a professional boxer who has had plenty of energy in the fourth round of any of your bouts?
It may become one if you are expending a significant amount of energy training your squat at the expense of your boxing training. If the priority is boxing it is a question of should vs can. The ability to squat 500 pounds does not confer a significantly better chance of success in a pro boxing match. The training time and energy most people, of fighting weight, expend in order to reach or maintain a 500 pound squat is significant. This means less focus on training for boxing. Poor focus when training for a fight is a predictor of a poor showing in said fight.
True, but even out of all the special little snow flakes that are bodies the general rule that guys training their squat more than their boxing box less well than those who do the opposite is going to be true more often than it is false.
I also think you are having to pull FightinIrish’s statement pretty far out of context in order to disagree with it. It was not a hard and fast rule. It was a general statement/observation in order to predict an outcome based on limited, but specific, information. If it is correct more than incorrect it is valid. I submit it is valid.
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the notion that a well trained nervous system equates to poor conditioning is laughable [/quote]
I have two issues with this.
First: Damn lucky none of us made that statement than. I am not defending that statement. I did not make it, neither did Irish or LondonBoxer.
Second: I reject the entire premise of the statement you are refuting. “well trained” in the context of boxing would mean that the fighters nervous system would be suited for boxing. I understand the allusion of muscle recruitment and lifting weights, but in this context it is the cognitive ability, motor control, and reflexes in order to beat the ever living shit out of your opponent that would qualify as “well trained”. In this context “well trained” would aid in conditioning because the fighter would be able to move efficiently and force their opponent to be inefficient.
So Floyd Maywather Jr. has a very well trained nervous system for boxing. Ed Coan has a very well trained nervous system for squatting. They could not switch sports and enjoy the same success because their new endeavors would reclassify them both as “poorly trained”.
Third, are you a professional boxer who has had plenty of energy in the fourth round of any of your bouts?
It may become one if you are expending a significant amount of energy training your squat at the expense of your boxing training. If the priority is boxing it is a question of should vs can. The ability to squat 500 pounds does not confer a significantly better chance of success in a pro boxing match. The training time and energy most people, of fighting weight, expend in order to reach or maintain a 500 pound squat is significant. This means less focus on training for boxing. Poor focus when training for a fight is a predictor of a poor showing in said fight.
True, but even out of all the special little snow flakes that are bodies the general rule that guys training their squat more than their boxing box less well than those who do the opposite is going to be true more often than it is false.
I also think you are having to pull FightinIrish’s statement pretty far out of context in order to disagree with it. It was not a hard and fast rule. It was a general statement/observation in order to predict an outcome based on limited, but specific, information. If it is correct more than incorrect it is valid. I submit it is valid.
first off thank you!
And I fear that at my size and age Im pretty close to maxing out if i manage to find a raw competition any where reasonable that would put me at the weight and age class record by a descent margin (I’ve been doing some cutting and am now quite a bit lighter that i have stated in previous posts)
no i am not a professional I’l give you that. but neither are the majority of people here and that’s not the context i was meaning to speak in, and i suppose we are talking boxing although many notable ufc fighters seem to find the time to put up some impressive numbers.
I have sparred and have trained while squatting and dead lifting 4 times a week with hefty assistance work and still spent most of my free time at home performing isometrics and skill work with no ill effect on my scheduled training I also found that my power and strength allowed me to dictate the pace of combat to my liking 95% of the time both in and out of the ring though far more overwhelmingly out
however when I put the most on my squat I was simply doing no other leg work and taking 10 minutes a day to work up to an over 95% squat every damn day my body responded to this very well. be it breaking mental barriers or what have you, this method is responsible for the last 30 lbs I gained on the lift. Also this strength requires virtually no maintenance I probably touch my legs once a week now with 531 and no deload periods I dont believe that gaining strength and power has to be this giant undertaking that takes time away from anything else in your life and with the low reps doesnt have to fatigue the muscle to the point of affecting performance
and I have a pretty good gas tank (although for all i know maybe 500 is the magic number where everything goes to shit so that is why all the strong middle and welterweight ufc fighters do fine) I can still throw down a 5 minute mile or run many at a slower pace. I can skip easily half an hour a day with body weight circuits and shadow boxing in between rounds. I also do max effort intervals on the rowing machine to the same 3 minute on 1 minute rest as rounds and rely heavily on my 65 lb xvest, tabata intervals, and 5 minute rounds rounds of squatting dead lifting and slamming my 100 lb heavy bag on the ground for conditioning (at various stages of the year depending how I’m feeling currently i use a 1 hour cardio circuit) and i was chosen to by the junior talent recruitment program to train to represent my country in the common wealth games for cycling after being goaded to try out at their traveling testing center by a teacher in my post graduate year however being a self supporting student I later had to decline due to financial constraints and (and working in roofing 7 days a week). being at school I havn’t had a suitable environment or even sparing partner for some time but I still stick to my bas rutten tapes lol and work the bag however that’s a very broken measuring stick seeing as you get what you give in both situations
has my skill work suffered do to work load undoubtedly, you could make the argument for trashing any aspect of a program aside from skill work. but we were talking about conditioning and I’ve always based my attitude around the one good piece of advice my father gave me “bigger stronger faster” and something my mentor told me " are you as skilled as i am pissed off" however i by no means advocate fighting stupid just with more conviction
and you are correct with my statement about the nervous system i neglected to recognize the aspect of coordination and speed associated with nervous system conditioning i simply don,t believe that they have to be mutually exclusive. and my initial retort to Irish’s statement was probably over board but i get my back up because of all the negativity towards any kind of strength or power training when i myself have felt the benefits when properly utilizing such training in combination with skill work.
I feel like people are making the argument for not being a well rounded fighter and setting yourself up to constantly be facing more powerful opponents and that is only one style of fighting.
though the statement Irish made may be valid, I would say show me a person that fits those criteria and i’l show you a person who hasn’t busted his ass to be good at both.
Here is the deal. The statement as I read it had to do with Boxing. Not MMA or even kickboxing, but boxing. BOXING-It’s not just a goofy holiday you folks of inferior whisky( whisky? I promote a bourbon WHISKEY centric world view) and superior beer do after Christmas.
Because boxing actively discourages the clinching, wrestling, shoving, and pulling that benefits from the strength squatting develops having a 500 pound squat is going to be far less useful than in contests where these things are allowed. I am not saying having weak legs is better. Just that having an over 2 X bodyweight squat is far from required. If it was still the 1950’s than you might find more opportunities to use that kind of strength in the ring, but even then weight classes are a bitch.
Example: Sadler vs Pep IV. Take the 8 minutes and see how much “extra” work was allowed when they clinched.
Let us also consider height. Your stats list you at 5’9" and 205 pounds. That is pretty short for anything but super middleweight or below. So 168 pounds at weigh in. If you had to cut down to 168 would you be “able to squat 500” when you went in the ring or would you be someone who “could squat 500” when they were not training for a fight. In order to disagree with Irish you have to hold that you would be equally comfortable putting 500 pounds on your back as fighting bell to bell in the fourth.
Sports where clinching/wrestling is part of the game are going to benefit more from weight training. Wrestlers, judoka, and MMA fighters all seem to reap great benefits when they are stronger than their opponent. This discussion is not about them. I am saying that there will be limited returns on developing a huge squat for a boxer.
I am sorry that you had to pull out from the games. Even being selected is an impressive accomplishment.
Here is the deal. The statement as I read it had to do with Boxing. Not MMA or even kickboxing, but boxing. BOXING-It’s not just a goofy holiday you folks of inferior whisky( whisky? I promote a bourbon WHISKEY centric world view) and superior beer do after Christmas.
Because boxing actively discourages the clinching, wrestling, shoving, and pulling that benefits from the strength squatting develops having a 500 pound squat is going to be far less useful than in contests where these things are allowed. I am not saying having weak legs is better. Just that having an over 2 X bodyweight squat is far from required. If it was still the 1950’s than you might find more opportunities to use that kind of strength in the ring, but even then weight classes are a bitch.
Example: Sadler vs Pep IV. Take the 8 minutes and see how much “extra” work was allowed when they clinched.
Let us also consider height. Your stats list you at 5’9" and 205 pounds. That is pretty short for anything but super middleweight or below. So 168 pounds at weigh in. If you had to cut down to 168 would you be “able to squat 500” when you went in the ring or would you be someone who “could squat 500” when they were not training for a fight. In order to disagree with Irish you have to hold that you would be equally comfortable putting 500 pounds on your back as fighting bell to bell in the fourth.
Sports where clinching/wrestling is part of the game are going to benefit more from weight training. Wrestlers, judoka, and MMA fighters all seem to reap great benefits when they are stronger than their opponent. This discussion is not about them. I am saying that there will be limited returns on developing a huge squat for a boxer.
I am sorry that you had to pull out from the games. Even being selected is an impressive accomplishment.
Regards,
Robert A
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I think you’ve really hit on something.
I think you could say in general that the more open the rules (of your combat sport), the more strength and athleticism in general will benefit the practitioner, where sports with very narrow rule sets, will more strongly benefit those with the more proficient skill-set within those rules.
I think athleticism can makeup for a lack of skill. My wrestling sucks. I’m primarily a striker, with a decent BJJ base. But I also tend to be stronger/more athletic than the guys I end up matched against in amateur (that’s important) MMA, and that athleticism combined with my decent striking and passable group-game, helps me “fill” the gaping wrestling whole in my game, not that I’ve fought any world-class wrestlers, but I’ve defended and taken down guys that in a pure wrestling match would kill me.
for the record canadian rye whiskey is shit in a bottle! I to am a man of the bourbon however due to our fucking authoritarian alcohol regulations my selections are pretty much restricted to wild turkey and Knobb creek though im not complaining both make a nice old fashioned btw
the beef thing i understand where this comes from and why Canadians and Americans hate each others beer we both only ship out or massive bottom rung brands to each other. its like how no Australasian seem to like fosters but thats all we get here. id hate canadian beer to if all i had was molson canadian and that other swill just as budwieser and old mill are nothing special (you know we cant even get coors here just coors light wtf is that) i would recommend a keiths dark, a waterloo dark as far as larger more accessible breweries go then there are some good micro breweries. if i could figure out the customs i would love to get set up going with people in the states or other regions where we trade favourite local beers via postal service
i love the video things were really bogged down in the 7th
i need to update the stats im walking at a much leaner 190 lbs so admittedly your right 168 is out of the range i consider safe to cut to and would also be to draining to maintain that strength. however if i can get that within a 10 percent body weight cut hit the saunas and drop the water with a nice gallon of pedialyte some multi vitamins and a cooler of food for after weigh in my lifts wont suffer if not i might only hit 405(my base number nothing can cause me to miss) as for being short ahaha yeahh the doctor lied i was supposed to be 6’2" oh well I enjoy preying on the tall they have more unwarranted confidence
Interesting points all round. It’s great to see a forum where this kind of thing can be discussed reasonably.
Westdale Warrior, it won’t surprise you that I am with Irish and Robert A on this one. Your lifts are definitely immpressive, as are your other athletic achievements. Within the specific contest of boxing though, I believe all Irish has been trying to say, and certainly all I would say, is that anyone who can squat that kind of weight is a less good boxer than they have the potential to be.
This is not to say you’re not still a solid fighter, how could I possibly know? but it is to say (all bodies not being made equal) that your time could most likely have been better spent, as far as becoming a better boxer is concerned, by dedicating the time you spent building your impressive strength to further honing your boing craft.
I don’t know if you compete, but I think one thing that can get overlooked by people who don’t specifically train boxing, to compete specifically as a boxer, is the level of boxing specific dedication serious competitors have. The mentality of being a top boxer, in my personal opinion, is one that leaves little room for time, energy, and concentration being given to anything that is not boxing.
I squat 500+lbs. I have boxed competitively. I still box, but not competitively.
I am in shape. Considering my past experiences in the fight game, my current fitness would not last for my standards in the ring. The time and energy I put into squatting 500lb would be better spent endurance or skill training.
Its about diminishing returns, B. Is being strong good for fighting? Yes. Know your sport and meet the requirements for strength and then focus on technical mastery. I guess i shouldnt expect much more on a weightlifting site though.
My punching and kicking is probably no different at 500lb squat than 400. For what its worth, I have always been a fast and explosive type anyways, and when I boxed competitively, I didnt lift. Id say lifting has more applicability to sports such as judo, wrestling and mma. This is not any of those.
If your technique is good and you dont have power…then work on digging shots on the bag as hard as possible. “power” per se in boxing is about so much more than physical strength. Its about speed, timing, footwork, anticipation, etc.
I believe that cardio is completely necessary for boxing and that strength training is very useful, but not 100% needed. It gives you an extra advantage but should not be your main focus. Weight lifting may not translate into punching power as much as you think.
[quote]Ignant wrote:
I believe that cardio is completely necessary for boxing and that strength training is very useful, but not 100% needed. It gives you an extra advantage but should not be your main focus. Weight lifting may not translate into punching power as much as you think.[/quote]
strength training is not the same as weightlifting.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
I disagree with irish that anything more than a infrequent 5/3/1 routine will be too much. That said, a typical BB’ing split and volume in general is commonly far too much.
I moved up from light middle, to LHW using a 4 day split that focused on explosive strength, and I didn’t find it draining at all. Keep in mind however, I’m not sure what age you are, but at 20 years old, I’m probably very young in comparison and I don’t have too many issues with recovery, and during this time, I fought VERY infrequently compared to most amateurs which probably helped considerably.
I didn’t do much roadwork during this period (because I am a lazy fuck and I hate jogging with a passion) but I did do lots of sprinting, and i still did long periods of rope work. I really should do more roadwork, because my endurance has always been a “could be a lot better” factor.
To be honest, what burnt me out the most was the sadistic and stupid training programs that some of our assistant coaches (who weren’t boxers, but football trainers iirc) put us through. The endless circuits of punching air with dumbbells and doing other awkward, extreme rep stuff with light weights might have built mental toughness, but it got to a point where I had to say “enough is enough, we’re not spending enough time on sparring and pad work”.
I hate punching with dumbbells, fucking hate it.[/quote]
Have you tried to shadowbow with weighted gloves? It seems to be a great method for now, especially with the speed bag.
God, no offence- but I can’t believe some guys still defend the ‘strength training is bad’ argument. That is so outdated. Strength training won’t per se make you a better fighter - but it will give you an advantage over a weaker person in boxing.
In the boxing gym you can automaticly see which guy is the one able to squat 600lbs. It’s generaly the guy of who ppl back up from when sparring.
However, your strength training must be embedded into your boxing training: lift weights only AFTER boxing training (or on the day after). This is to prevent the soreness from strength training kicking your butt at boxing training.
Stick to compound movements (Mainly deadlifts and squats, cleans if you know how to properly i.e. movements that force the hips+legs to do a lot of stregnth work).
Keep the reps low as possible, I’d say max. 3 reps on working sets. Remember, when incorporating strength training into boxing training your goal is to fatigue the muscles as less as possible - your CNS must do the main work. Unless you want to mass up a weight class, but that shouldn’t be your goal atm.
