This is awesome. More questions have been answered in the past two pages of this thread than the entire “My Experience on the Anabolic Diet” thread. I’m really glad this thread got started.
[quote]Bizmark wrote:
This is awesome. More questions have been answered in the past two pages of this thread than the entire “My Experience on the Anabolic Diet” thread. I’m really glad this thread got started.[/quote]
Maybe because those participating to this thread are not blind followers of the AD dogma, but rather are individuals with open minds trying to apply the concepts of low-carbs dieting to better fit their needs and physiology.
The funny thing is that even Dr. Di Pasquale (who ‘invented’ the anabolic diet) is straying away from its original principles and has modified quite a bit.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
The funny thing is that even Dr. Di Pasquale (who ‘invented’ the anabolic diet) is straying away from its original principles and has modified quite a bit.[/quote]
Are you talking about “The Metabolic Diet” books here or something unpublished? I’ve read all his stuff plus most of Lyle McDonald’s, Charles Poliquin’s, a lot of yours, and some other’s who have done work and research with low carbs. It seems like I’m almost addicted to finding out more information about this stuff =).
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Bizmark wrote:
This is awesome. More questions have been answered in the past two pages of this thread than the entire “My Experience on the Anabolic Diet” thread. I’m really glad this thread got started.
Maybe because those participating to this thread are not blind followers of the AD dogma, but rather are individuals with open minds trying to apply the concepts of low-carbs dieting to better fit their needs and physiology.
The funny thing is that even Dr. Di Pasquale (who ‘invented’ the anabolic diet) is straying away from its original principles and has modified quite a bit.[/quote]
Thank you for the input CT!
I’m going to make this work.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
The thing that stuck with me about the above was the idea of fats/ketones being used for anaerobic work or at least that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Everything I’ve read and experienced indicates that glycogen is the only fuel usable for anaerobic work read weightlifting.
I don’t know how you would have sufficient glucose for training under that plan.
If that were the case (can only use glycogen for anaerobic work) the human race would not have survived past the stone age!!! Especially in regions without much fruits.
Don’t be fooled; the human body is the ultimate adaptive machine. EVERY tissue in the body in EVERY circumstances can adapt to use more than one source of fuel, otherwise survival of the species would be impossible.
For years it was believed in the scientific community that the brain could only function on carbs… turns out that ketones are just as effective for that purpose.
While I do agree that carbs are more efficient during intense strength work, ketones and fat CAN be used as a fuel source too.
And even if you go low-carbs (50g or less per day) you will not completely deplete muscle glycogen ever. The body will always maintain a ‘‘survival amount’’ of glycogen by converting some amino acids into glucose than store it as glycogen. Glycerol, the ‘‘backbone’’ of the fat molecule can also be turned into glucose.
NOW, it sounds bad to turn amino acids into glucose… and it is; IF those amino acids come from muscle tissue. But that’s why I recommend a higher protein intake when doing a ketogenic diet (1.75g per pound instead of 1.25-1.50g), that way you will use the amino acids left in the free amino acid pool to produce glucose instead of breaking down muscle tissue.
And as it was mentionned, ketones are glycogen-sparing, so your body can ‘‘stretch’’ the glycogen stores it has for a longer period of time.
The one carb-up meal a week is not used only by me. Poliquin use the same method with his clients (which includes a lot of high level athletes), Vince Gironda used it with his top bodybuilders (including Larry Scott and Momo Makkaway) and recently Dave Palumbo uses it with all of his clients. The human body can store around 400g (up to 500g if you are a more muscular individual) of glycogen in his muscles. There is no sense in doing a huge carb-load consisting of 2000g of carbs consumed over 2 days, especially considering that when you are fat adapted you will not fully deplete your glycogen stores anyway.
That having been said I will not argue against your diet since it’s basically how I am eating right now (read my First person article). But I do dispute your claims that your body CANNOT use anything by glycogen for fuel during strength training. Heck, I once ate less than 50g of carbs/day for 4 months while still competing in olympic lifting and training twice a day. And I did not lose strength, my relative strength actually went up since I lost 20lbs.
[/quote]
I agree with a previous poster, fantastic thread. However, this discussion between CT and Tribulus leads me to another question. If the body can only hold 400-500 g of glycogen at max capacity, the question that springs to my mind is: how quickly are glycogen stores used up when training hard multiple times per week on the AD (or similar very low-carb diet)? I understand it is glycogen-sparing, and I also understand as CT wrote that the body clings to a “baseline” of glycogen, so it’s never FULLY used up, but the reason I ask is explained below.
I agree that the body can adapt to burning fat for fuel, even during anaerobic exercise. But CT, you even admit that “carbs are more efficient during intense strength work”. So what I think Tribulus was getting at is optimization. Perhaps it’s possible to burn only fat, but as lifters, wouldn’t it be preferable to replenish glycogen regularly so as to be able to maximize our efforts?
See this link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=stryer.chapter.2911
“Moreover, the glucose from glycogen is readily mobilized and is therefore a good source of energy for sudden, strenuous activity. Unlike fatty acids, the released glucose can provide energy in the absence of oxygen and can thus supply energy for anaerobic activity.”
Clearly this text, at least in some aspects, flies in the face of what we’ve all just said (see the part on the brain only being able to use glucose). But if we agree that fat CAN be used to sustain anaerobic activity, it still makes sense that burning glucose is far more efficient because it doesn’t have to be oxidized like fat - correct? So therefore - and again, someone more knowledgeable in chemistry than I step in if I get this wrong - doesn’t it stand to reason that replenishing glycogen semi-regularly is a good idea for lifters b/c it is a better energy source for anaerobic activity (since it doesn’t have to be oxidized to release ATP, i.e. energy)?
I’ve used the AD pretty much as originally written with great success, but the key to the whole deal, as Disc Hoss once wrote, is skimming just above the ketosis line. I’ve got a few thoughts on this, but I’d like to hear what you think, CT, about the above questions. So to summarize (sorry for long post):
-
If the body can only hold 400-500 g of glycogen at max capacity, the question that springs to my mind is: how quickly are glycogen stores used up when training hard multiple times per week on the AD (or similar very low-carb diet)?
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Doesn’t it stand to reason that replenishing glycogen semi-regularly is a good idea for lifters b/c it is a better energy source for anaerobic activity (since it doesn’t have to be oxidized to release ATP, i.e. energy)?
Thanks!
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Bizmark wrote:
This is awesome. More questions have been answered in the past two pages of this thread than the entire “My Experience on the Anabolic Diet” thread. I’m really glad this thread got started.
Maybe because those participating to this thread are not blind followers of the AD dogma, but rather are individuals with open minds trying to apply the concepts of low-carbs dieting to better fit their needs and physiology.
The funny thing is that even Dr. Di Pasquale (who ‘invented’ the anabolic diet) is straying away from its original principles and has modified quite a bit.[/quote]
Many people jump into the diet before they fully research it, the “experience” thread reflects that.
How would one transition off a low carb diet to a high carb diet?
Would it be “smart” to just start it as you did when switching to high far or would it be less risky to up the carbs little by little?
[quote]ronaldo7 wrote:
How would one transition off a low carb diet to a high carb diet?
Would it be “smart” to just start it as you did when switching to high far or would it be less risky to up the carbs little by little?[/quote]
Read the Getting Unshredded article by Dr. John Berardi. Here’s the link: http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1226387
But a while back on the PN forums I asked about coming off the AD and was answered by one of the trainers saying that slowly upping your carbs week by week by about 30g is also a good way.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
<<< But I do dispute your claims that your body CANNOT use anything by glycogen for fuel during strength training. >>>[/quote]
I don’t know everything, but my understanding has been that while any of the 3 macros can be converted into glycogen in a pinch, glycogen itself is the only direct fuel used for actual anaerobic muscle contraction. If that is not the case then I have been in error. If it is then why not just provide enough carbs to easily maintain stores, but no more, as precisely as that’s reasonably possible.
I am all with ya on the way most people load and it accounts for why they gain too much fat and I don’t believe it’s healthy either. I may get a few hundred grams over the whole weekend and I’m on the verge of going to one day as well.
I gotta say man, I don’t see the wisdom in using aminos for anything except repair and recovery any more than is unavoidable, especially in a lipid adapted environment. Fats work better and in their dietary absence you get the bonus of adipose stores being easily tapped into.
Maybe the fact that I’m viewing this from the deep end of my second year in a fat adapted state is coloring my thinking.
PS, were missing you (and Barr) in the NHL playoffs thread.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that regarless if you are in ketosis or not, the body will convert protein to glucose via gluconeogenesis.
Therefore low carb + high protein will still produce plenty of glucose. In fact you can still get an insulin spike from a high protein meal. Only fat does not raise insulin.
That has always been my problem with low carb diets in the context of body building. In fact I wonder if too much protein can kick you out of ketosis?
Also I don’t believe in switching diets all the time. Pick one that works and agrees with you and stick to in for the long term. If you want to cut, reduce a little of everything (but mostly fat and carbs). And if you want to gain add a little of everything.
[quote]doubleh wrote:
- If the body can only hold 400-500 g of glycogen at max capacity, the question that springs to my mind is: how quickly are glycogen stores used up when training hard multiple times per week on the AD (or similar very low-carb diet)?
[/quote]
It depends on the type of training you use. For example doing a biceps-only session will use less total glycogen than a lower body session. If you do 30 sets per workout you will use more glycogen than if you do 5 sets per workout. If you do sets of 8-15 reps you will use more glycogen than if you do sets of 1-5 reps.
But and ‘‘average non-idiotic’’ training session will use around 90-150g of glycogen. So in theory you would deplete your glycogen in 4 weekly workouts. BUT this isn’t so because of two reasons:
A) When you are fat adapted and in a ketogenic state, which is glycogen sparing, you might only use up half as much glycogen. So you could, in theory require 8 workouts to deplete glycogen. But even if that is the case, you will never completely deplete glycogen because…
B) Even in the absence of carbs, your body will still replenish the glycogen stores to some extent. It will do so by transforming certain amino acids into glucose(glutamine, alanine, serine, glycine and threonine being the most glucogenic amino acids) which can then be stored as muscle glycogen. Obviously you want to avoid breaking down muscle amino acids to build new glucose, which is why a higher protein intake is important if your carbs intake is low: in that case the body will use the amino acids from the free amino acids pool to produce new glucose. ‘‘Won’t this reduce the amount of protein that we can use to build muscle?’’. Not really, if you are a natural trainee there is a limited amount of protein that you can use to build muscle tissue. Over 1.0 to 1.25g per pound is about the limit; so if your protein intake is at 1.5 to 1.75g per pound, you will be able to use the excess to form new glucose without interfering with protein synthesis.
[quote]doubleh wrote:
2) Doesn’t it stand to reason that replenishing glycogen semi-regularly is a good idea for lifters b/c it is a better energy source for anaerobic activity (since it doesn’t have to be oxidized to release ATP, i.e. energy)?
[/quote]
Yes… but most cyclical diets go overboard on the carb-up. Since you are never depleting your glycogen stores completely, 200-250g every 7 days is enough, unless you are training twice a day everyday, in which case you will need more frequent loadings.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
doubleh wrote:
2) Doesn’t it stand to reason that replenishing glycogen semi-regularly is a good idea for lifters b/c it is a better energy source for anaerobic activity (since it doesn’t have to be oxidized to release ATP, i.e. energy)?
Yes… but most cyclical diets go overboard on the carb-up. Since you are never depleting your glycogen stores completely, 200-250g every 7 days is enough, unless you are training twice a day everyday, in which case you will need more frequent loadings.
[/quote]
I read a while back that Coach Poliquin was using ketogenic diets with more frequent carbloads for his elite athletes, I don’t remember exactly what was said but I do remember that Dr. Di Pasquale had influenced it somewhat.
I think the reason for it was because the athletes, once fat adapted, would be running off both the fat metabolism and the carb metabolism with more frequent carb loads, causing the body to be able to stretch it’s glycogen store more than if it was running off glycogen alone. And I believe this glycogen sparing is an extremely large part if not the largest part of the Anabolic Diet in adding muscle size (please correct me if I’m wrong).
Do you know if Coach Poliquin is still using these diets for his athletes?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Since you are never depleting your glycogen stores completely, 200-250g every 7 days is enough, unless you are training twice a day everyday, in which case you will need more frequent loadings.
[/quote]
so if you ARE doing twice a day training, say six days a week, just how frequent would the carb loadings be?
[quote]ProjectX wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Since you are never depleting your glycogen stores completely, 200-250g every 7 days is enough, unless you are training twice a day everyday, in which case you will need more frequent loadings.
so if you ARE doing twice a day training, say six days a week, just how frequent would the carb loadings be?
[/quote]
Stop looking for a universal answer! There isn’t one. It depends on various factors including insulin sensitivity, training volume, activity levels, metabolic rate, etc.
Me personally, when I train twice a day, I have to have a carb containing meal every 4th day. This meal normally provides 200g of carbs. When I train only once a day I have to eat a carb meal every 7th day.
BUT I’m extremely lean. Individual who are fatter need to space out their carb meals more.
AND it is NOT a carb load. A carb load is ingesting a ton of carbs over a period of 1-2 days. I’m talking about a carb MEAl.
[quote]Bizmark wrote:
I read a while back that Coach Poliquin was using ketogenic diets with more frequent carbloads for his elite athletes, I don’t remember exactly what was said but I do remember that Dr. Di Pasquale had influenced it somewhat.
I think the reason for it was because the athletes, once fat adapted, would be running off both the fat metabolism and the carb metabolism with more frequent carb loads, causing the body to be able to stretch it’s glycogen store more than if it was running off glycogen alone. And I believe this glycogen sparing is an extremely large part if not the largest part of the Anabolic Diet in adding muscle size (please correct me if I’m wrong).
Do you know if Coach Poliquin is still using these diets for his athletes?
[/quote]
Di Pasquale recommended a mid-week carb spike when and individual is lean and using the Anabolic diet to gain size. It is NOT a second carb load, but rather small spike of 100-200g on Thursday, ideally post-workout.
Charles, much like I do (and it is exactly what Gironda recommended), recommend a moderate amount of carbs every 4th day IF the individual is lean enough and insulin sensitive enough.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
<<If that were the case (can only use glycogen for anaerobic work) the human race would not have survived past the stone age!!! Especially in regions without much fruits.
Don’t be fooled; the human body is the ultimate adaptive machine. EVERY tissue in the body in EVERY circumstances can adapt to use more than one source of fuel, otherwise survival of the species would be impossible.[/quote]
I echo that this is a very helpful thread.
About 7 years ago I tried very low carb diets, twice, with dismal results. I did them strictly for 3 weeks and then 2 weeks without losing any weight (I still don’t know how that was possible) and feeling completely awful. Maybe that wasn’t enough time for me to adapt.
I know that I can lose fat and stay relatively lean eating carbs. However, I think it was you, Coach Thibaudeau, who said something recently like, It’s hard to get VERY lean while eating carbs. I am trying to get leaner than I’ve ever been so I started experimenting with lower carbs again.
This time went better, maybe because I had already been hypocaloric and somewhat carb restricted (compared to usual). But I felt progressively worse for the 3 weeks I ate no carbs other than green veggies. That is, at first I felt fine and lost fat. But after a few weeks I had low blood sugar episodes which were immediately fixed by eating some carbs. Most annoying is that after awhile with low carbs, I get blurred vision! It is hard to function with the blurred vision.
I have also noticed that I feel better when eating meals with a lot of protein and a little fat, rather than vice versa. That seems bad as well, like my body is better at using protein for fuel than fat.
It seems that I am NOT adapting to low carbs, and I am not sure what to do. Should I bull through the problem episodes, hoping that my body will eventually be forced to adapt?
And what exactly is the payoff if I do? I ASSUME that adapting to using fat (and protein?) for fuel will make the body want to use excess calories (nutrients?) for muscle building rather than fat storage, and/or preferentially use stored fat to fuel calorie (nutrient?) deficits, thereby changing body comp more effectively over time. ?
[quote]andersons wrote:
It seems that I am NOT adapting to low carbs, and I am not sure what to do. Should I bull through the problem episodes, hoping that my body will eventually be forced to adapt?
[/quote]
25% of the population will actually do better on a moderate carbs diet (40% protein, 40% carbs, 20% fat)
than on a low carbs diet. It seems like you are one of these guys, some are just not built to optimally function in a very low carbs environment. YES your body can adapt, but it means that you will be able to function and survive NOT achieve your body comp goals. Adaptation is meant for survival of the species, not looking hawt on the beach.
CT, How do you feel about the “AD’s” testoterone boosting claims?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ProjectX wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Since you are never depleting your glycogen stores completely, 200-250g every 7 days is enough, unless you are training twice a day everyday, in which case you will need more frequent loadings.
so if you ARE doing twice a day training, say six days a week, just how frequent would the carb loadings be?
AND it is NOT a carb load. A carb load is ingesting a ton of carbs over a period of 1-2 days. I’m talking about a carb MEAl. [/quote]
Thanks CT. oh, and i only said “loadings” because i was referring to what you had said, otherwise i did mean just a meal:
“unless you are training twice a day everyday, in which case you will need more frequent loadings.”
[quote]Dirty Tiger wrote:
CT, How do you feel about the “AD’s” testoterone boosting claims?[/quote]
Here are some facts:
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Cholesterol is the raw material that will ultimately be used to make testosterone (well it is used to build the precursor hormones to testosterone which eventually get converted to testosterone).
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Studies have shown that a diet very low in dietary fat leads to lower testosterone levels.
So in theory it would seem correct that a diet that is low in carbs and high in fat (the AD is only one of the the many such diets, and it’s far from being the best one) would boost testosterone.
However, ultimately you are limited by the enzymes that convert the precursor hormones into testosterone. So yes, increasing dietary fat can increase testosterone levels IF the former amount of fat consumed was suboptimal. However at some point ingesting more fat will not lead to higher testo levels because you don’t have the enzymes necessary to do the job.