I know we have a Anabolic Diet thread on the S&N forum.
Unfortunately that forum has turned into fat-loss cult.
The AD thread is glutted with people who follow the diet for two weeks then jump into thread posting about how awesome it is to eat bacon all day…then they vanish.
I wanna know if any of you bodybuilding types have used the diet long-term to gain mass.( Or if you’ve tried it and think it sucks!)
I am interested in reading about how you manage your carb levels.
I’ve read the book and I’ve browsed the AD thread, it seems like most people (in that thread) are staying under 30 grams of carbs well past the induction phase.
It seems like they are more intrested in dropping or maintaining weight as opposed to mass building.
I’m at 20 months solid and will never go back. Here’s a tip. If you’re thinking about starting the AD because of what you can eat don’t waste your time. That’s what a lot of guys do. The reason for eating like I do is because of the results it brings not because you think it requires less discipline. I’m talking generally, not to YOU.
I’m all for better ways of doing things. I’m also for bucking the tried-and-true methods just because.
That being said, it’s my humble opinion that trying to bodybuild with almost zero carbs (save for the weekend) is so tough a walk, that you’d have a difficult time convincing me it’s a better way.
According to Tribulus, it IS possible to bodybuild on the AD and I really like his attitude toward the diet and the reasons to NOT start it. Hopefully he can provide more insight for you.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m at 20 months solid and will never go back. Here’s a tip. If you’re thinking about starting the AD because of what you can eat don’t waste your time. That’s what a lot of guys do. The reason for eating like I do is because of the results it brings not because you think it requires less discipline. I’m talking generally, not to YOU.[/quote]
Tiribulus, Thanks for the reply.
Do you keep the weekday carbs at 30 grams?
If not how high do you go?
I tried the AD for a several months last spring.
The body-comp changes were encouraging… then I would start feeling lethargic in the afternoon. My workouts suffered.
I tinkered with my carb levels and ended up drifting into a Paleo type diet. Now I don’t count carbs but I limit my carb sources to fruits & veggies.
I’m thinking about doing the AD again with a more mass oriented approach.
It IS possible to gain muscle and strength on a low-carbs diet.
My friend Hugo Girard, who used to be top 3 in the world in WSM (World Strongest Man) is training to make a comeback (after tearing his Achilles tendon) and he is eating a low-carbs diet. It is even stricter than the AD since he only has one carb-up day a week and he doesn’t consume as much saturated fat as those using the typical AD.
While he is not a bodybuilder, the fact that as of last Friday he is 332lbs at 10.5% bodyfat (trust me, he IS that lean!) on 6’2’’ kinda makes me believe that his results are applicable for bodybuilding purposes!
So yes, it is possible to gain on such a diet. But caloric intake must be high enough to fuel muscle growth. A lot of peoples consume too little calories when trying to gain on a low-carbs diet. In fact, it is one of the fat-loss benefits of such a diet: you are not that hungry and it’s harder to get a high amount of calories in.
To build muscle you need:
A sufficient amount of protein. Proteins are the building blocks of muscle; the raw material used to build a house. Without sufficient raw material you cannot build the house.
A sufficient energy intake. Building muscle is an energy-dependent process. Yes you need protein to build muscle, but the process of using those protein to fabricate new muscle tissue require energy, and lots of it. See energy as the salary you pay the workers who are building your house: if you don’t pay them enough they will not work as well and as fast. Furthermore, building muscle is just about the last priority of your body, behind all the other stuff necessary for survival. So only the energy left over from fueling your daily activities and bodily processes can be used to build muscle. Energy is essentially either carbs or fat. Protein can also be used for energy, but we don’t want that! So if you cut your carbs, you NEED to have a high fat intake to have enough energy to fuel your daily needs THEN build muscle.
An adequate amount of the essential nutrients. There are no ‘‘essential carbohydrates’’. However there are essential amino acids and essential fatty acids. Amino acid needs will be covered if protein intake is high. Essential fatty acids, especially the DHA/EPA ones are often underestimated yet they are essential for optimal muscle building, especially on a low-carbs diet.
An insulin spike at the right time. To maximise post-workout recovery and anabolism we need an insulin spike post-workout. Normally we use carbs post-workout to spike insulin, but on a low-carbs diet we can’t. However several amino acids do have pro-insulin properties. The BCAAs and especially leucine, glutamine, glycine can all spike insuline. Whey isolate also has a pro-insulin property. So it is very important to consume a large amount of protein, BCAAs (15-30g), glutamine (10-20g and more if your stomach can handle it) and ideally glycine (5-10g or more if your stomach can handle it).
Glutamine, even though it is a somewhat overrated supplement, especially if you are eating carbs, can be very useful on a low-carbs diet because it can be turned into glucose than stored as glycogen in the muscle. So even though you are not consuming carbs, if your daily glutamine intake is high, your glycogen stores will never be depleted.
Glutamine can also increase blood pH; in other words it makes the body/blood less acid. A high protein intake has the opposite effect (it makes it more acid). When blood pH is low (more acid) muscle building and fat loss are decreased. So ingesting 5g of glutamine with every protein meal is a very effective way of improving the efficacy of this diet. Note that green veggies have the same acid-lowering property as glutamine.
Thanks for posting CT that it is very interesting and helpful. But I do not understand why you would go on a low carb diet to replenish glycogen and have an insulin spike in other ways I thought the purpose of a low carb diet was to lower insulin It this just because some people feel like crap after eating carbs(I am one of them) and these things do not have that effect or is there another reason? And does the glutamine with protein containing meals go against the no carbs + fat rule I thought the point of that rule was to avoid an insulin spike when eating fat. I don’t doubt tha these recomendations work I just don’t understand why
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
It IS possible to gain muscle and strength on a low-carbs diet.
My friend Hugo Girard, who used to be top 3 in the world in WSM (World Strongest Man) is training to make a comeback (after tearing his Achilles tendon) and he is eating a low-carbs diet. It is even stricter than the AD since he only has one carb-up day a week and he doesn’t consume as much saturated fat as those using the typical AD.
While he is not a bodybuilder, the fact that as of last Friday he is 332lbs at 10.5% bodyfat (trust me, he IS that lean!) on 6’2’’ kinda makes me believe that his results are applicable for bodybuilding purposes!
So yes, it is possible to gain on such a diet. But caloric intake must be high enough to fuel muscle growth. A lot of peoples consume too little calories when trying to gain on a low-carbs diet. In fact, it is one of the fat-loss benefits of such a diet: you are not that hungry and it’s harder to get a high amount of calories in.
To build muscle you need:
A sufficient amount of protein. Proteins are the building blocks of muscle; the raw material used to build a house. Without sufficient raw material you cannot build the house.
A sufficient energy intake. Building muscle is an energy-dependent process. Yes you need protein to build muscle, but the process of using those protein to fabricate new muscle tissue require energy, and lots of it. See energy as the salary you pay the workers who are building your house: if you don’t pay them enough they will not work as well and as fast. Furthermore, building muscle is just about the last priority of your body, behind all the other stuff necessary for survival. So only the energy left over from fueling your daily activities and bodily processes can be used to build muscle. Energy is essentially either carbs or fat. Protein can also be used for energy, but we don’t want that! So if you cut your carbs, you NEED to have a high fat intake to have enough energy to fuel your daily needs THEN build muscle.
An adequate amount of the essential nutrients. There are no ‘‘essential carbohydrates’’. However there are essential amino acids and essential fatty acids. Amino acid needs will be covered if protein intake is high. Essential fatty acids, especially the DHA/EPA ones are often underestimated yet they are essential for optimal muscle building, especially on a low-carbs diet.
An insulin spike at the right time. To maximise post-workout recovery and anabolism we need an insulin spike post-workout. Normally we use carbs post-workout to spike insulin, but on a low-carbs diet we can’t. However several amino acids do have pro-insulin properties. The BCAAs and especially leucine, glutamine, glycine can all spike insuline. Whey isolate also has a pro-insulin property. So it is very important to consume a large amount of protein, BCAAs (15-30g), glutamine (10-20g and more if your stomach can handle it) and ideally glycine (5-10g or more if your stomach can handle it).
Glutamine, even though it is a somewhat overrated supplement, especially if you are eating carbs, can be very useful on a low-carbs diet because it can be turned into glucose than stored as glycogen in the muscle. So even though you are not consuming carbs, if your daily glutamine intake is high, your glycogen stores will never be depleted.
Glutamine can also increase blood pH; in other words it makes the body/blood less acid. A high protein intake has the opposite effect (it makes it more acid). When blood pH is low (more acid) muscle building and fat loss are decreased. So ingesting 5g of glutamine with every protein meal is a very effective way of improving the efficacy of this diet. Note that green veggies have the same acid-lowering property as glutamine.[/quote]
Would one have to eat more calories during a mass phase while on a diet such as the AD or would it be a good idea to eat the same amount as when one is on a high carb diet??
[quote]dylan10507 wrote:
Thanks for posting CT that it is very interesting and helpful. But I do not understand why you would go on a low carb diet to replenish glycogen and have an insulin spike in other ways I thought the purpose of a low carb diet was to lower insulin[/quote]
Actually the REAL reason why low-carb diets work is not so much because of the low insulin levels (which does play a role mind you) but rather because your body is forced to turned to other fuel sources for fuel.
YES replenishing SOME glycogen via the use of other products still allow you to maintain a decent intra-muscular glycogen level. But this doesn’t prevent adaptation to using fat for fuel as long as you are no consuming carbs. It simply means that you will have a bit more ‘‘gas’’ for your high-intensity workouts.
You can replenish some glycogen with glutamine, BCAAs and glycine, but not enough to prevent a metabolic shift to using fat for fuel.
Furthermore you WANT an insulin spike post-workout. While insulin can lead to fat storage, when properly timed it is a highly anabolic hormone that is almost mandatory for growth.
BUT the insulin spike from the consumption of glucogenic amino acids will be short lived, after 90 minutes or so insulin levels will be back to baseline. So it doesn’t interfere with fat burning.
[quote]dylan10507 wrote:
It this just because some people feel like crap after eating carbs(I am one of them) and these things do not have that effect or is there another reason?[/quote]
That might be an effect; a lot of peoples do much better on a low-carbs/moderate fat diet. But it is really a side benefit. The real reason is that to switch to a ketogenic state, in which fat/ketones become your primary fuel source, you need to drop your carbs below 50g a day.
[quote]dylan10507 wrote:
And does the glutamine with protein containing meals go against the no carbs + fat rule I thought the point of that rule was to avoid an insulin spike when eating fat. I don’t doubt tha these recomendations work I just don’t understand why [/quote]
The no carbs + fat rule is overrated IMHO, even JB is gradually moving away from this one. If someone is consuming low-glycemic carbs along with some fat, there is no problem… that is if you are following a balanced diet.
5g of glutamine will not cause an insulin spike. Ingesting 5g of glutamine is like ingesting 2g of sugar… which is nothing. In other words 5g of glutamine will have the same impact on insulin as chewing 1 piece of sugar-free gum!!!
[quote]ronaldo7 wrote:
Would one have to eat more calories during a mass phase while on a diet such as the AD or would it be a good idea to eat the same amount as when one is on a high carb diet??[/quote]
Seriously all you guys should stop thinking in terms of calories and start thinking in terms of nutrients. Your body doesn’t recognize ‘‘calories’’ … it’s just a measuring unit. It only recognizes the amount of type of nutrients ingested.
How long do you have to be below 50g of carbs a day before your body starts using fats/ketones as a primary source of energy/ when can you have a carb up day? After that how long til the next carb up day, for muscle gain.
Also do you need to have large carb up days or can I just have oatmeal in the am, Surge PWO and maybe a nice juicy hamburger and some fries for dinner :)?
[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
How long do you have to be below 50g of carbs a day before your body starts using fats/ketones as a primary source of energy/ [/quote]
7 to 21 days depending on your hormonal balance, training volume and previous dietary practices.
[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
when can you have a carb up day?[/quote]
Never… I do not recommend a full carb-up day unless you are under 10% body fat. When you have a full day of carbing-up (especially if it is excessive) it will take you 2-3 days to get back into ketosis (using primary fat/ketones for fuel)… so that leave you around 3 days for real fat loss. Now, if your main goal is to gain mass this aspect isn’t as problematic, but you will have a hard time staying in fat burning mode and that means that you will feel lethargic and lack energy because fat will never stay your primary fuel source.
I recommand anywhere from 1 carb-up meal per week up to half a day (3 meals) depending on the degree of leanness.
BUT when you start this diet you CANNOT have a carb-up until you are clearly fat adapted. That’s why my clients cannot have carbs until the end of the second week of dieting. Then they can normally have one carb-up meal every week.
[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
Also do you need to have large carb up days or can I just have oatmeal in the am, surge PWO and maybe a nice juicy hamburger and some fries for dinner :)? [/quote]
I always recommend carbing-up with clean food. Normally I will allow SURGE post-workout and then a clean carb meal of around 150g of carbs at the last meal of the day. I used to recommend having it at breakfast but changed my mind because of:
Charles Poliquin who showed me that during a low-carbs diet you are actually more insulin sensitive in the evening AND the carbs will help you sleep better.
Dave Palumbo who does it for a more practical reason: if you have your carbs at your last meal, you will not be as tempted to eat them again during the day. If you have carbs early, you will often crave them for the rest of the day and end up doing an excessive carb-up.
Okay, I’m reading about this Anabolic Diet and am actually fairly intrigued, because I’m still relatively high in BF, but after taking a year to get serious about losing weight I really don’t want to sacrifice strength and size gains. That being said, with the anabolic diet requiring very few carbs, does this essentially mean no protein shakes? I assume if there’s an abundance of red meat we could get our protein through that means, but I just want to make sure. Also, do things like Superfood or Surge play a large role into the Anabolic Diet?
[quote]SSC wrote:
Okay, I’m reading about this Anabolic Diet and am actually fairly intrigued, because I’m still relatively high in BF, but after taking a year to get serious about losing weight I really don’t want to sacrifice strength and size gains. That being said, with the anabolic diet requiring very few carbs, does this essentially mean no protein shakes? I assume if there’s an abundance of red meat we could get our protein through that means, but I just want to make sure. Also, do things like Superfood or Surge play a large role into the Anabolic Diet?[/quote]
OK, first and foremost, I personally do not advocate the Anabolic Diet itself. It has some shortcomings:
no distinction in the type of fat consumed
two days of carbing up and no limits to the carb-up
60-70% of the calories from fat
I prefer a low-carbs (less than 50g/day like the AD) but with the following differences:
focus on integrating more ‘‘good fats’’ (plenty of fish oil, coconut oil for cooking, olive oil, some nuts and seeds) and less ‘‘bad fats’’ (I like to rely mostly on wild red meat like buffalo, bison, venison, deer instead of beef. I also like to use a lot of ostrich, chicken, turkey and fish)
Amount of carbing-up depending on your degree of leanness. I never recommend more than one day of carb-up, and this is for very lean individuals. Most should stay between 1 and 3 carb-up meals during a day for no more than 200-250g of carbs total
During the low carbs day protein can be as high as 50-55% and fat around 40-45%. I actually don’t count percentages, I go with an amount of nutrients relative to bodyweight.
As a baseline if you main goal is to lose fat:
Protein: 1.5 to 1.75g per pound
Fat: 0.5g to 0.75g per pound
Carbs: less than 50g
So if you are 200lbs that would mean 300-350g of protein, 100-150g of fat, less than 50g of carbs per day.
Adjust these amounts weekly depending on how your body is reacting.
If you are trying to add size you should start by adding around 10-15% in protein and fats and adjust from there.
[quote]SSC wrote:
That being said, with the anabolic diet requiring very few carbs, does this essentially mean no protein shakes?[/quote]
You can have regular shakes (e.g. low-carbs Metabolic Drive or Grow! whey) made with a protein powder with 3-4g or less of carbs per serving; but you mix it in water or crystal light.
You can have up to 50g of carbs, so if you get 10g from your shake you are fine. Most of the carbs should come from green veggies and nuts and seeds.
Be careful of hidden carbs. A lot of peoples actually drink juice, milk or soda when trying a low-carbs diet… the problem is that those are very high in carbs, so they are a big no-no. In fact, beside the shakes, the only things you should drink are: water, coffee (no sugar, splenda is ok), tea, crystal light, diet soda in moderation.
[quote]SSC wrote:
Also, do things like Superfood or Surge play a large role into the Anabolic Diet? [/quote]
Superfood is a great addition because you can’t eat fruits on this diet and no veggies besides green veggies. So Superfood will provide you with some micronutrients you might be lacking.
Surge should be used since one serving will put you above your daily carbs limit. You could have 1/2 a serving (25g of carbs) though but in that case you would have to really monitor your carbs intake closely to avoid going above 50g.
Okay, thanks, this helps a lot. I still have a decent shelf of fat on me, but again, as a former-HUGE-boy, I want to continue to get stronger and bigger, while trying to get the rest of this fat off of my body. The type of plan you’re suggesting sounds ideal, but another question stems from your suggestion.
You mentioned the general baseline for losing fat. If I stuck to this, and began losing fat, would I in turn lose strength or muscle size, or is going to help me maintain? I’m just curious, because when I went on my year-long diet stint I lost a significant amount of strength and some size, too.
[quote]SSC wrote:
Okay, thanks, this helps a lot. I still have a decent shelf of fat on me, but again, as a former-HUGE-boy, I want to continue to get stronger and bigger, while trying to get the rest of this fat off of my body. The type of plan you’re suggesting sounds ideal, but another question stems from your suggestion.
You mentioned the general baseline for losing fat. If I stuck to this, and began losing fat, would I in turn lose strength or muscle size, or is going to help me maintain? I’m just curious, because when I went on my year-long diet stint I lost a significant amount of strength and some size, too.[/quote]
When dieting is done properly, you should never lose strength or muscle mass. YES you will ‘‘feel’’ smaller because your muscles will be depleted of glycogen and water, but if you do everything right you will not regress. Heck, I recently broken my record on the incline bench press (405lbs) while being on a fat loss diet.
In fact I always say that when dieting down you should ALWAYS strive to push your strength up. As long as your strength goes up or is at least maintained, you are not losing muscle mass.
Okay, again, thanks for the info. When I was dieting was before I really starting eating up the information at T-Nation, and was only raking in somewhere between 1,500-1,800 calories a day while trying to gain muscle mass… how little I knew. On top of that, I also probably only brought in somewhere between 100-150 grams of protein, so I definitely had no idea of what I was doing. Thankfully, I found T-Nation before it was too late.
So with my bodyweight being 165lbs, I should only consume 2680 calories to gain mass? My goal is to gain mass with little fat gain, it seems really hard when I only get 2680 calories a day. Do these numbers seem right