I do also apologize to the OP for the thread hijack.
[quote]SSC wrote:
I do also apologize to the OP for the thread hijack.[/quote]
No need to apologize dude. I’m glad this thread is getting some action.
CT from your personal experience and clients, what would you say is better to gain mass while not becoming a fat-ass??..would you go low carb?? or would you go high fat??.
I been on the AD for a while and trying to lose some fat at the moment but tend to go overboard on the carb-ups. This upcoming weekend I will try your method however if I make my last 3 meals mostly carbs then what would I do with the first 3 meals of the day??..Should I make them high in protein with some veggies??
I’ve been on the AD for about a month now, which isn’t long-term by any stretch, but I’m getting familiar with it.
Let me state one thing outright, at 177 lbs I DO NOT need to cut any weight, and that was not my intention when starting it. I stay close to 10%-12% BF pretty much all the time and I am a chronic undereater, so I don’t need to get cut or anything silly like that. That wasn’t my intension.
My main goal was testing my carb tolerance. What actually caught my attention was my steady increase in caffeine throughout the day. I did get a work promotion but nothing too stress inducing, I’m currently not in classes, and my schedule hasn’t changed…yet my reliance on the energy spike continued to grow over the past 6 months and it was affecting my sleeping habits (vicious circle).
So I started looking at my diet because my slumps were usually after eating. I was eating fairly clean but with high protein and carbs.
I started AD just to limit my carbs as an experiment and I kept a very close eye on the scale over the past 4-6 weeks. For the first week there was no change at all (thank god) and I even went up a pound. By the third week, I was noticing a drop to right around 170 to 171 lbs, and then a glycogen/water increase up to 177 or so right after the carb days.
But what I did like was that I gained some muscle and lost a small amount of fat (keep in mind I didn’t really care to measure it, I’m going by the mirror so it may have been water as well). Mainly though I started feeling a bit better with lower carbs…this might be because I was increasing my protein or because I am not as tolerant of carbs as I thought I was.
The things I didn’t like was feeling almost ill the second day after getting carbs (like I was getting a cold), and as CT stated the disregard of fat or carb types.
I am going out of town next week and when I get back I am probably going to modify it to be a bit more conscious of the fats. I also like CTs thoughts on three carb meals as opposed to a whole weekend, that may help with the “feeling like crap on tuesday”.
Oh, and if I start to lose weight all bets are off, and I’m diving into a box of Little Debbies.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
ronaldo7 wrote:
CT from your personal experience and clients, what would you say is better to gain mass while not becoming a fat-ass??..would you go low carb?? or would you go high fat??.
I been on the AD for a while and trying to lose some fat at the moment but tend to go overboard on the carb-ups. This upcoming weekend I will try your method however if I make my last 3 meals mostly carbs then what would I do with the first 3 meals of the day??..Should I make them high in protein with some veggies??
If thats you in the picture to the left, you should not be too worried about losing bodyfat at the moment.
[/quote]
That is me indeed but from a few months ago. I had to stop training for sometime and gained a bunch of fat. I’m just trying to get the body fat down in the next 4-8 weeks to start a gaining phase at around 9-10% bf.
[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
So with my bodyweight being 165lbs, I should only consume 2680 calories to gain mass? My goal is to gain mass with little fat gain, it seems really hard when I only get 2680 calories a day. Do these numbers seem right
1.75xBW + 10%= 316g protein
.75xBW + 10%= 135g fat
50g carbs[/quote]
As I mentionned:
-
It’s a STARTING POINT… adjust your food intake according to how your body is responding
-
Your body doesn’t recognize calories, only nutrients
Not that you guys wont listen, BUT LISTEN to everything CT has to say regarding low carb diets and everything to do with it, as he is thet truth. I used the AD for approx 7 months and gained ALOT of fat thanks to the 2 f%#ing carb up days and the recommendations I recieved from others on the AD, who may have responded well to them…I did not. It is a VERY individual thing(carbs ups) and amount of nutrients etc. I highly recommend a low carb approach to fat loss and muscle preservation.
I know you guys are thinking we have heard this, coming from coach CT, but just wanted to chime in, as I have recently made great changes in my physique from ALL his recommendations…
GJ
Gymjunkie, Ahmen.
I followed the whole carb-up thing. and i gained weight. Yey. But what? my Lifts were actually going down…?
Right now I’ve been on the low/no Carb diet, with the macro nutrient split for fat loss. and its Working. And I have been busting my Personal Records almost every 2-3 weeks.
Low Carb Diets work, well for me they do cause they help with insulin sensitivity. And what fats you use Really do Matter.(Being a former super fat boy at 5’5 @90kgs+ about 3 years ago). Read Coach CT’s “Thin Gets Riped” fourm.
I was thinking about this diet a little more last night before I went to sleep, and I thought of another question: How do people eat before a workout and immediately after? I’m generally eating some whole grains before a workout for some slow-burning energy, and I’ll drink a G2 or something like that afterwards with my protein shake to get some fast-burning carbs in there. Without carbs or Surge though, what do people on the AD resort to?
[quote]SSC wrote:
I was thinking about this diet a little more last night before I went to sleep, and I thought of another question: How do people eat before a workout and immediately after? I’m generally eating some whole grains before a workout for some slow-burning energy, and I’ll drink a G2 or something like that afterwards with my protein shake to get some fast-burning carbs in there. Without carbs or Surge though, what do people on the AD resort to?[/quote]
You don’t really need a special meal pre-workout once you are adapted to using fat/ketones for fuel since you will never run out of it, contrary to carbs which have to be ‘‘loaded’’ since you cannot store a lot of it.
I do, however recommend taking in 10g of BCAA and 10g of glutamine pre-workout (immediately before) and another 10-20g (at least) of BCAAs during the workout (for its anti-catabolic properties.
Post-workout I recommend 2 scoops of whey protein, another 10g of BCAAs and 10-20g of glutamine.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
SSC wrote:
I was thinking about this diet a little more last night before I went to sleep, and I thought of another question: How do people eat before a workout and immediately after? I’m generally eating some whole grains before a workout for some slow-burning energy, and I’ll drink a G2 or something like that afterwards with my protein shake to get some fast-burning carbs in there. Without carbs or Surge though, what do people on the AD resort to?
You don’t really need a special meal pre-workout once you are adapted to using fat/ketones for fuel since you will never run out of it, contrary to carbs which have to be ‘‘loaded’’ since you cannot store a lot of it.
I do, however recommend taking in 10g of BCAA and 10g of glutamine pre-workout (immediately before) and another 10-20g (at least) of BCAAs during the workout (for its anti-catabolic properties.
Post-workout I recommend 2 scoops of whey protein, another 10g of BCAAs and 10-20g of glutamine.[/quote]
Great, thanks for all of the help CT. I’ve been interested in getting BCAAs, glutamine (although I guess I’ll have to get these from somewhere non-Biotest,) and Superfood. If I do decide to take on the Anabolic diet, you’ve given me a lot of guidelines and tips to help figure out what’s good for me and my body, so hopefully I’ll be able to obtain optimal results.
If in order to get our bodies to use fat/ketones as primary fuel, we have to be in ketosis, but what if we are just using a low carb diet (<100g), is the primary fuel source carbs or is it mostly fat and some carbs. Basically what i’m trying to say is if you’re not in ketosis, is there even a point to going low carb?
[quote]alaw4516 wrote:
If in order to get our bodies to use fat/ketones as primary fuel, we have to be in ketosis, but what if we are just using a low carb diet (<100g), is the primary fuel source carbs or is it mostly fat and some carbs. Basically what i’m trying to say is if you’re not in ketosis, is there even a point to going low carb?[/quote]
You do not have to be in ketosis to burn fat. Heck, you can lose fat by consuming a high carbs diet as long as your energy intake is lower than your expenditure.
At 75-100g of carbs you can burn a significant amount of fat without being in ketosis. However some peoples feel like shit on this type of dieting. For these peoples, using a low-carbs diet without being in ketosis leads to cravings and mood swings. Why? Because the brain can only use carbs and ketones for fuel (not fat directly). So at 100g of carbs per day you might not be giving enough for your brain to function optimally (especially if you perform a lot of strength work, which naturally relies on carbs/glycogen for fuel). Since you are not producing a lot of ketones (you are not in a ketogenic state) your brain might feel deprived, at which point you will have problems focusing, you will suffer mood swings, lack energy and drive and will have huge carb cravings.
Some people (myself for example) do not have that problem. Why? Because some individuals can actually consume more carbs (up to 100g) and still be in ketosis. This is mostly due to insulin sensitivity, metabolic rate and activity levels.
Those who can function well with 100g of carbs per day will have no problem losing fat provided that their energy intake is correct; but those who need to consume less carbs to stay in ketosis will feel like crap.
Thanks coach, this clears a lot of things up. You must be a very sensitive guy, with all that Flameout and insulinomics ;). I just fish oil was cheaper. With the amount you need to really help insulin sensitivity, i would need about a bottle of Flameout a week! Too much $$ for me.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
<<< You don’t really need a special meal pre-workout once you are adapted to using fat/ketones for fuel since you will never run out of it, contrary to carbs which have to be ‘‘loaded’’ since you cannot store a lot of it. >>>[/quote]
Here’s how it’s gone for me and it is related to the above.
I started the AD in Aug. 06 and on the advice of Disc Hoss did it strictly by the book for the first three months. For the first 2 I had energy fluctuations and weird sleep issues all over the place.
Gradually I settled in with every early inconsistency going away. I have made the following adjustments which might not qualify my diet as even being the AD any more, but in my mind the money principle is a lipid adapted metabolism.
I actually eat more carbs than was called for in the original AD, but probably less than what’s allowed in the Anabolic Solution, DiPasquale’s updated version.
I drink a workout shake that has 50 or 60 grams of carbs. I get a gulp before training, sip on it while I’m training and finish it when I’m done. I train VERY hard 3 days a week.
I do eat lots of EFA’s and am sane, but not alarmist with my animal fat intake.
My carb loads are almost immaculately clean and while they are at the moment 2 days I do not gorge on carbs and especially not in any one meal.
I do eat shit loads of all kinds of hot peppers, peppers, greens, squash, broccoli, celery etc. Carb loads are sweet potatoes, some potatoes, home cooked beans etc and different kinds of fruit about 98% The closest I come to junk is air popped popcorn with a combination of real butter, extra virgin coconut oil and EVOO/Lawry’s seasoned salt.
The thing that stuck with me about the above was the idea of fats/ketones being used for anaerobic work or at least that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Everything I’ve read and experienced indicates that glycogen is the only fuel usable for anaerobic work read weightlifting. Having an adequate supply available would then be essential to avoid the inefficient conversion of other sources into glycogen during training hence the need for maintaining glycogen stores without readapting to a glucose based metabolism.
I’m a bit taken aback by your seeming recommendation for 1 carb meal a week? I don’t know how you would have sufficient glucose for training under that plan. A very high fat intake as well as adipose stores would take care of all other energy needs, but weight training requires glycogen. Also, without the corresponding high fat intake a low carb diet can result in aminos being converted for fuel which is the kiss of death if it goes on long enough.
I’m with ya on the not having to lose muscle while dieting, especially with a low carb/high fat approach, but low carb without the corresponding fully fat adapted metabolism leaves gluconeogenesis from aminos as the most readily available fuel source and hence skeletal muscle danging there as a tempting treat.
I’m not trying to give you a hard time and I do have a great deal of respect for your knowledge, not to mention I may have simply misunderstood, but these points will nag me if I don’t mention them.
On another note, I really REALLY believe the vast majority of people just do not give a fat adapted lifestyle enough time to work it’s magic and that’s what it comes down to. A fat adapted lifestyle, whatever label or version it winds up being. Like I say What I do know probably isn’t exactly the AD the AD anymore, but it is a fully fat adapted lifestyle.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<< My carb loads are almost immaculately clean and while they are at the moment 2 days I do not gorge on carbs and especially not in any one meal.[/quote]
When are your carb loads in relation to your training?
I have been wondering about this as well.
What specifically are the benefits of the fat adapted lifestyle? Compared to, say, eating the same exact foods you eat now, but with a portion of your clean carb sources at most meals instead of 2 days a week?
I do, however recommend taking in 10g of BCAA and 10g of glutamine pre-workout (immediately before) and another 10-20g (at least) of BCAAs during the workout (for its anti-catabolic properties.
An insulin spike at the right time. To maximise post-workout recovery and anabolism we need an insulin spike post-workout. Normally we use carbs post-workout to spike insulin, but on a low-carbs diet we can’t. However several amino acids do have pro-insulin properties. The BCAAs and especially leucine, glutamine, glycine can all spike insuline. Whey isolate also has a pro-insulin property. So it is very important to consume a large amount of protein, BCAAs (15-30g), glutamine (10-20g and more if your stomach can handle it) and ideally glycine (5-10g or more if your stomach can handle it).
- Glutamine, even though it is a somewhat overrated supplement, especially if you are eating carbs, can be very useful on a low-carbs diet because it can be turned into glucose than stored as glycogen in the muscle. So even though you are not consuming carbs, if your daily glutamine intake is high, your glycogen stores will never be depleted.
I dont know if this answers your question. But CT basically said he does recommended a pre-workout concoction which will help restore glycogen stores… which you have just said will be depleted…
Also, Ketones are very “Glycogen sparing”; i’m sure CT will get back with that shortly haha.
I figured I’d post this, assuming CT keeps reading this thread (which is great!)
This comes from the article “Refined Physique Transformation”.
I find myself linking this article to fat guys in the beginners section a lot. It’s really helpful.
My question though- on the AD, a lot of guys complain of mental fogginess and lethargy if their protein intake is this high (50/50 p/f ratio). This is commonly attributed to glucogenesis, where protein gets used as fuel (I… believe that is the correct term).
The commonly presecribed antidote is to decrease protein intake and increase fat. In my personal experience, the fogginess and lethargy subside after these changes (assuming they’re large enough- changing 200kcal from protein to fat was enough for me out of 2500 aggregate kcals).
So why such a high ratio of protein to fat?
Note- it is not my intent in any way to call you out, CT. I’m just trying to mesh my personal experience with yours.
[quote]tayjeremy wrote:
Also, Ketones are very “Glycogen sparing”; i’m sure CT will get back with that shortly haha.
[/quote]
It’s obvious! ‘‘glycogen sparing’’ simply means that you don’t use as much glycogen as usual. This is kinda expected if your body relies mostly on another fuel source (ketones).
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The thing that stuck with me about the above was the idea of fats/ketones being used for anaerobic work or at least that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Everything I’ve read and experienced indicates that glycogen is the only fuel usable for anaerobic work read weightlifting.
I don’t know how you would have sufficient glucose for training under that plan.
[/quote]
If that were the case (can only use glycogen for anaerobic work) the human race would not have survived past the stone age!!! Especially in regions without much fruits.
Don’t be fooled; the human body is the ultimate adaptive machine. EVERY tissue in the body in EVERY circumstances can adapt to use more than one source of fuel, otherwise survival of the species would be impossible.
For years it was believed in the scientific community that the brain could only function on carbs… turns out that ketones are just as effective for that purpose.
While I do agree that carbs are more efficient during intense strength work, ketones and fat CAN be used as a fuel source too.
And even if you go low-carbs (50g or less per day) you will not completely deplete muscle glycogen ever. The body will always maintain a ‘‘survival amount’’ of glycogen by converting some amino acids into glucose than store it as glycogen. Glycerol, the ‘‘backbone’’ of the fat molecule can also be turned into glucose.
NOW, it sounds bad to turn amino acids into glucose… and it is; IF those amino acids come from muscle tissue. But that’s why I recommend a higher protein intake when doing a ketogenic diet (1.75g per pound instead of 1.25-1.50g), that way you will use the amino acids left in the free amino acid pool to produce glucose instead of breaking down muscle tissue.
And as it was mentionned, ketones are glycogen-sparing, so your body can ‘‘stretch’’ the glycogen stores it has for a longer period of time.
The one carb-up meal a week is not used only by me. Poliquin use the same method with his clients (which includes a lot of high level athletes), Vince Gironda used it with his top bodybuilders (including Larry Scott and Momo Makkaway) and recently Dave Palumbo uses it with all of his clients. The human body can store around 400g (up to 500g if you are a more muscular individual) of glycogen in his muscles. There is no sense in doing a huge carb-load consisting of 2000g of carbs consumed over 2 days, especially considering that when you are fat adapted you will not fully deplete your glycogen stores anyway.
That having been said I will not argue against your diet since it’s basically how I am eating right now (read my First person article). But I do dispute your claims that your body CANNOT use anything by glycogen for fuel during strength training. Heck, I once ate less than 50g of carbs/day for 4 months while still competing in olympic lifting and training twice a day. And I did not lose strength, my relative strength actually went up since I lost 20lbs.