Bodybuilders & The Big Three

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]David1991 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]KTranman wrote:
For the ones that do deadlifts and got responses from them(Bigger back muscles), did you ever feel it in your upper back? When ever I deadlift its my lower back and glutes that feel fatigued after, not my upper back.

Two weeks ago I was stuck around 315 max deadlift, then I started mix gripping and using chalk now I got 405x1 but still only feel it in my glutes and lower back. I plan on keeping them in bec I’m sure I can get to 500 this year now that my grip isnt the problem.[/quote]

People that get significant upper back growth from deadlifts are few and far between. You should be relying on staple width and thickness movements for that…BB and DB rows, Pendlay rows, Rack chins, pullup variations, all that stuff. [/quote]

I wonder why so many people talk about them being so great for back thickness then[/quote]

Well, h4m said upper back thickness, for me, DLs really hit my lower back thickness well.[/quote]

Yes, because your spinal erectors are one of the prime movers, the most important (and often overlooked) muscle group for deads. For your upper back, with a traditional deadlift, it’s more or less an isometric type deal.

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[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]David1991 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]KTranman wrote:
For the ones that do deadlifts and got responses from them(Bigger back muscles), did you ever feel it in your upper back? When ever I deadlift its my lower back and glutes that feel fatigued after, not my upper back.

Two weeks ago I was stuck around 315 max deadlift, then I started mix gripping and using chalk now I got 405x1 but still only feel it in my glutes and lower back. I plan on keeping them in bec I’m sure I can get to 500 this year now that my grip isnt the problem.[/quote]

People that get significant upper back growth from deadlifts are few and far between. You should be relying on staple width and thickness movements for that…BB and DB rows, Pendlay rows, Rack chins, pullup variations, all that stuff. [/quote]

I wonder why so many people talk about them being so great for back thickness then[/quote]

Well, h4m said upper back thickness, for me, DLs really hit my lower back thickness well.[/quote]

Yes, because your spinal erectors are one of the prime movers, the most important (and often overlooked) muscle group for deads. For your upper back, with a traditional deadlift, it’s more or less an isometric type deal. [/quote]

Yea I got ya, I was just saying they are good for certain back thickness just not overall. Kroc rows ftw

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Definitely going to try these in the new gym!

64

I personally found the big three, and their variations work well for beginners and for adding strength and mass. However, like anything if its not suited to you or its abused it can become detrimental.

I am more built to dead lift than squat but hammered away at the squats anyway, I made more progress on the dead lift so pushed this more and as a result injured my back and kept re injuring it for years. If I had had a coach or a bit more knowledge I could maybe have avoided this, but because I thought I was doing the right thing I kept persisting. I stopped dead lifting and used kettle bell swings (light weight higher reps) belt squats and then bought a reverse hyper. Gradually things improved and I gained without too many more problems.

I now use front squats (millions of times better for me) sumo and conventional dead’s I alternate as I feel like it- but don’t use them too frequently. I have started doing wide back squats again but I’m carful not to go too heavy or hard on them (for me) for fear of injury, I use the belt and front squats to push my legs.

I always preferred the incline bench press and alternate the height of the incline and use thick and standard bars and dumbells. I find that varying sets reps and rest periods helps a lot.

I personally believe that the big three are the key to gaining, especially for beginners, or at least me, but more accurately I would say the big three and all their variations, as some where in there there is something that will suit pretty much anyone, its just that most people don’t know this when they start training unfortunately, or at least I didn’t, If I had I could have avoided lots of injuries, chiro bills, wasted years training… but I usually learn the hard way LOL

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[quote]thrasher_09 wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
Im gonna agree with Stu and how the “Big 3” affected me. Hell, i dont deadlift most of the time period. When it comes to chest, i think my bread and butter for size was Db fly. It takes some serious Pec recruitment to be able to fly triple digit dbs past parallel to the floor.

Looking at the squat, i am glad that i started properly using it, but if i was to focus on 2 isolation movements that targeted your hams and quads, id have to say Elevated Front Squats for quads, and Weighted lunges for hams/glutes (when you really put some length in your stride and drop down to the floor, you wreck your hams/glutes to the point where sitting the next day hurts lol)[/quote]

does elevating your heel activate more quad? I will have to try it out. Yeah I love lunges. I was never including any single leg work in my training. Was just doing squats/leg press and leg extensions/curls. Ever since using single leg work because of a back problem my legs have gained a noticeable amount of size. They went from my worst to best body part.

Bret Contreras made a comment about a lot of people neglecting the adductors which get worked strongly with single leg movements. They are nearly one third of your upper leg and I think they can make a huge difference in leg size when trained. Not to mention your hammies and glutes getting a beating![/quote]

Thrash, specifically what single leg movements have you found most beneficial for the adductors? Split squats? I have the leg development of a 6 year old girl with an eating disorder. Adductors are particularly lacking.

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[quote]Tyler23 wrote:

[quote]thrasher_09 wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
Im gonna agree with Stu and how the “Big 3” affected me. Hell, i dont deadlift most of the time period. When it comes to chest, i think my bread and butter for size was Db fly. It takes some serious Pec recruitment to be able to fly triple digit dbs past parallel to the floor.

Looking at the squat, i am glad that i started properly using it, but if i was to focus on 2 isolation movements that targeted your hams and quads, id have to say Elevated Front Squats for quads, and Weighted lunges for hams/glutes (when you really put some length in your stride and drop down to the floor, you wreck your hams/glutes to the point where sitting the next day hurts lol)[/quote]

does elevating your heel activate more quad? I will have to try it out. Yeah I love lunges. I was never including any single leg work in my training. Was just doing squats/leg press and leg extensions/curls. Ever since using single leg work because of a back problem my legs have gained a noticeable amount of size. They went from my worst to best body part.

Bret Contreras made a comment about a lot of people neglecting the adductors which get worked strongly with single leg movements. They are nearly one third of your upper leg and I think they can make a huge difference in leg size when trained. Not to mention your hammies and glutes getting a beating![/quote]

Thrash, specifically what single leg movements have you found most beneficial for the adductors? Split squats? I have the leg development of a 6 year old girl with an eating disorder. Adductors are particularly lacking.[/quote]

If you have never done any single leg work I would start with DB Stationary split squats, then DB forward lunges then Bulgarian Split squats then Front foot elevated bulgarian split squats. Once balance is no longer an issue move onto the barbell versions of all the above and you can really load the weight up. I noticed the most growth from when I moved onto DB Bulgarian Split squats. The dbs are good because you can just dump them when balance is an issue and you are just starting out.

But to answer your question about the adductors being recruited. The deeper the lunge the more the knee stabilisers (VMO) and hip stabilisers (glutes/adductors) are recruited. Having said that you must first have enough hip mobility and hip flexor length to get into the position safely. You will know what I mean if you just leap straight into advanced progressions of single leg training and start walking lunges or bulgarians straight away (your lower back will arch and feel painful because your hips will pull forward).

Spend about 3-4 weeks on each of the progressions. Then at the end there are heaps of different variations. Reverse lunges, Slideboard reverse lunges, lateral lunges, Step ups (which I forgot to mention are another awesome single leg exercise). You can change up all of these be holding an offset weight in only one hand adding an anti-lateral flexion and rotation core component to the lunge OR holding a BB overhead for thoracic spine mobility etc etc there are heaps of variations but the ones that worked best for me were DB/BB Bulgarians.

When starting off drive the rear leg into the ground getting a good stretch in that HF. After you have finished doing the lunges stretch the shit out of your hip flexors. If you have problems recruiting your ass do this beforehand paired with some supine bridges.

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Thanks Thrash. I appreciate the detailed response. I have done Bulgarian split squats with both DBs and BB. Balance was a bit of an issue, but I adjusted. What I am not sure of, though, is my depth. I think I was only getting to just about parallel (maybe a bit above actually). To get deeper I would need to put my front foot way out there. I understand that to recruit more glutes/hams than quads (not my goal).

As for “front foot elevated Bulgarian split squats”, please tell me your back leg is raised and you are working the front leg. Because if it’s front leg raised/back leg being worked, I be in trouble (just tried it).

68

[quote]Tyler23 wrote:
Thanks Thrash. I appreciate the detailed response. I have done Bulgarian split squats with both DBs and BB. Balance was a bit of an issue, but I adjusted. What I am not sure of, though, is my depth. I think I was only getting to just about parallel (maybe a bit above actually). To get deeper I would need to put my front foot way out there. I understand that to recruit more glutes/hams than quads (not my goal).

As for “front foot elevated Bulgarian split squats”, please tell me your back leg is raised and you are working the front leg. Because if it’s front leg raised/back leg being worked, I be in trouble (just tried it). [/quote]

The depth is a problem I think will go away if you start with static lunges and go through the progressions that I mentioned. I think the main reason for this could be your hip flexibility. (The reason why I think this is because you say ‘way out there’) Bulgarian lunges are an advanced progression and should be used if you are very familiar with normal forward lunges and static lunges. IF balance is no longer an issue you can use a barbell for these and don’t feel like you are missing out just because it is a simple variation you can still load the barbell up and really drive that rear leg into the floor to stretch your hips out.

If you believe that its because your front foot is close and you are physically unable to put your rear leg down very far I suggest putting your front foot forward more and lightly touching the rear knee on the ground. The quad is recruited more when the front leg is closer but the distance for this is huge (if that makes sense…). I could probably move my foot 30cm forward or backward if i wanted more or less ham/glute. Once your hips are a bit more flexible then you can start worrying about what muscles are recruited. The adductors and VMO are both still getting a beating and they are great muscles viewed from the front :slight_smile:

LOL I don’t know what you did there but Front foot elevated Bulgarians are Bulgarians with your front foot raised. So basically its your front foot on a couple of plates or platform and your rear leg on the bench (like normal bulgarians) then your front foot is the one getting worked. You need a tremendous amount of hip flexibility to do this because the ROM is so much greater and the weight lifted will drop significantly. I suggest leaving this one for a while.