To add one thing to the relative strength comment…
When a 300 pound guy squats 700 pounds, he’s not really squatting 700 pounds, he’s squatting the 700 pounds on his back, plus his bodyweight, making that much closer to 1000 pounds than 700 pounds.
[quote]tjd772 wrote:
Its been said quite a few times here that “relative strength” favors individuals of lighter body weight.[/quote]
I can’t help but agree. However that wasn’t what I was talking about. I was talking about the disproportion of a juiced bodybuilder’s strength to size ratio VS a natural bodybuilder’s strength to size ratio.
[quote]Majin wrote:
tjd772 wrote:
Its been said quite a few times here that “relative strength” favors individuals of lighter body weight.
I can’t help but agree. However that wasn’t what I was talking about. I was talking about the disproportion of a juiced bodybuilder’s strength to size ratio VS a natural bodybuilder’s strength to size ratio.
[/quote]
Define “natural”.
[quote]DLboy wrote:
Go show up at a BJJ/Muay Thai gym and start fighting some people. But don’t start crying when a 135 pound pro fighter thai kicks you in the face and you get KTFO. I guess a 450 bench didn’t help you there.[/quote]
all that bbj/muay thai shit is a waste of time…
any teenage kid with a hand gun can easily defeat the best bbj/muay thai fighter on the planet with the pull of a trigger…
I guess all that fighting nonsense didn’t help you there did it…
[quote]DLboy wrote:
But to say that some random bodybuilder/powerlifter can defeat a good lightweight boxer or BJJ guy at their own sport is beyond ridiculous, it’s retarded.[/quote]
At their own sport? Why is anyone comparing two different aspects of athletics? In a real world fight, there are no rules. You could be the greatest 140lbs fighter the world has ever known and get dealt with by any kid with a gun in a real street fight.
There is no time for specialized moves and combinations. In a real world fight, leverage has a great deal to do with who walks away and who lays on the ground bleeding. How many people anywhere around 150lbs do you think are “world class BJJ fighters”? People like you sound like kids who watch too many movies.
The real world doesn’t play out in a ring and no one disqualifies one fighter for illegal weapons. In the real world, your greatest asset is being able to avoid that fight in the first place or to intimidate enough that you are the last person targeted. Your next greatest is to be stronger than the majority of the true threates out there.
I could care less how skilled you would like to think you are, if you are a target, your life is at greater risk in a real world confrontation. Those are just the facts. Keep believing that there are 140lbs Supermen walking around everywhere. It isn’t reality.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Define “natural”.[/quote]
Nothing past protein. Just to be on the strict side. I know the border is thinning but for the sake of simplicity I’m saying big time juice versus just food and weights.
On a side note I’d probably have more respect for a guy who’s using a bit of juice rather than someone who stacks 27 prohormones and androgens. Just get some dianabol already who are they kidding?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
DLboy wrote:
But to say that some random bodybuilder/powerlifter can defeat a good lightweight boxer or BJJ guy at their own sport is beyond ridiculous, it’s retarded.
At their own sport? Why is anyone comparing two different aspects of athletics? In a real world fight, there are no rules. You could be the greatest 140lbs fighter the world has ever known and get dealt with by any kid with a gun in a real street fight.
There is no time for specialized moves and combinations. In a real world fight, leverage has a great deal to do with who walks away and who lays on the ground bleeding. How many people anywhere around 150lbs do you think are “world class BJJ fighters”? People like you sound like kids who watch too many movies.
The real world doesn’t play out in a ring and no one disqualifies one fighter for illegal weapons. In the real world, your greatest asset is being able to avoid that fight in the first place or to intimidate enough that you are the last person targeted. Your next greatest is to be stronger than the majority of the true threates out there.
I could care less how skilled you would like to think you are, if you are a target, your life is at greater risk in a real world confrontation. Those are just the facts. Keep believing that there are 140lbs Supermen walking around everywhere. It isn’t reality.[/quote]
You introduced guns into the picture so automatically everything I said is irrelevant. Well what if I whip out a nuke in a street fight? What are you going to do then? That’s pretty much what you were saying. I didn’t even bring up the topic of street fighting, but even then, nothing changes unless there are weapons.
There are a lot of BJJ fighters that weigh around 150 pounds. Again, Royce Gracie was 160-170 tops, at 6’0. A lot of top MMA guys don’t even look like they work out (Chuck Lidell).
Dirty tactics do not work against anyone but the untrained. If you try and gouge a grappler’s eyes out on the ground from an inferior position, that will actually make things worse for you since you’d get armbarred in about 2 seconds. Kicking someone in the nuts will either make the person want to kill you even more, or have no effect because of the adrenaline rush.
Saying you can beat someone in a fight because you’re big is pretty much the same thing as saying you can sprint faster than all of those Olympic 50m runners because you squat 650.
I hate to come off as a douchebag. I’m not trying to justify being 140 pounds (unless you’re 4’6), because I’ve seen a lot of losers that say “But, I’m strong for my size!”. I don’t care about those people and I’m definitely not one of them. I USED to be that skinny however. Then I gained 60+ pounds.
I’m saying that just because you can lift some heavy iron, doesn’t mean you know anything about throwing a punch.
DLboy, a qquestion:
What is wrong with getting both big and skilled?
Everyone talks about the little tiny skilled guys. Well, why not get big and skilled? They are not mutually exclusive.
It is true that some people are quite large and not as strong as their size would indicate - however, generally anyone who is large, especially someone who has trained to become so, is usually quite strong as well. Or at least, stronger than THEY were before THEY started training.
I don’t know if anyone has found any examples of anyone who is REALLY large, and REALLY WEAK - that would be more interesting to me, scientifically.
But you cannot conclude that just because someone’s main aim is size that they have not developed strength as well.
And you cannot claim that in developing strength and skill to a specific sport, that you necessarily will develop a great deal of size and appearance of strength, certainly not compared to the huge bodybuilders we are used to today.
There are so many ways to measure strength and yet comparisons are made willy-nilly from one person to another. You can’t take someone who is huge and say they are not that strong if they have a low 1 rep max, if they have instead a really high multi-rep max etc… and so forth. At what point do you call it endurance? (note that I am not saying that all big people who don’t have a huge 1 rep max necessarily have a high mutli rep max).
How do we measure strength in a way that we can compare one person to another?
Really you can only compare a person to themselves. If a person starts off with X amount of strength, then builds more size, you have to compare their strength to what it was before training.
[quote]DLboy wrote:
I’m saying that just because you can lift some heavy iron, doesn’t mean you know anything about throwing a punch. [/quote]
So what? Just because you know how to throw a punch doesn’t mean you can beat up someone big. Are we done throwing around one liners now? This is getting stupid. MOST bigs guys who trained to get big are also strong. Most small guys are not capable of somehow taking down someone 100lbs more than them. Massif stated it again and I pointed it out before, but why do you or anyone else think that big guys can’t also know how to fight? Why is anyone dumb enough to walk around thinking that because someone has big muscles that they never learned how to defend themselves? It is a dumb concept.
Most of the guys I know into serious heavy lifting are NOT people who you would easily take down no matter how damn skilled you think you are. Pointing out a couple of skinny guys in professional fighting isn’t even speaking of a majority. So why even mention them? The chances of any of us just running into someone at the peak of BJJ fighting that we will have to defend ourselves against is simply not there so why pretend?
[quote]Majin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Define “natural”.
Nothing past protein. Just to be on the strict side. I know the border is thinning but for the sake of simplicity I’m saying big time juice versus just food and weights.
On a side note I’d probably have more respect for a guy who’s using a bit of juice rather than someone who stacks 27 prohormones and androgens. Just get some dianabol already who are they kidding?[/quote]
So, anyone taking tribulus isn’t natural? Anyone who ever took a pro-hormone isn’t natural? What about creatine? Unnatural now? You just wiped out most of the people on this board. Some would say there is NOTHING natural about getting 80gr of bio-engineered protein in one shake, yet I do it daily. How is that “natural”?
Let’s imagine a scenario. Two kids are looking to rip people off at knifepoint in the park at night. I’m pretty sure they aren’t going to see a skinny guy and said, “Hey, I bet he knows BJJ! Let’s go fuck with the guy who’s arms are the size of my head!”
Saying that being big doesn’t help you in a fight because Royce Gracie can whip some ass is the same logic as saying that bodybuilders are all strong as fuck because Ronnie Coleman can bench a schoolbus full of small children. You can’t look at one guy who’s one of the best in his field and apply his attributes to everybody else in his sport. A friend of mine is into MMA. He’s about 5’9", 170 pounds. He does pretty well in local stuff in his weight class, but he’s not going to go pro any time soon I’m sure. I’ve seen him get in a couple of scuffles with average guys and he laid them out like it was nothing. With that said, if we’re hanging out and we see a really big guy, he’ll go, “now that’s a dude I wouldn’t fuck with.”
To make another analogy, how many times do you see some idiot amatuer take down a top pro at the World Series of Poker? All it takes is one lucky card. Well in a street fight, all it takes is one lucky punch, or one accidental slip on some gravel or landing on a broken beer bottle and you could be done.
The bottom line is, you’ll never lose a fight you don’t get into.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, anyone taking tribulus isn’t natural? Anyone who ever took a pro-hormone isn’t natural? What about creatine? Unnatural now? You just wiped out most of the people on this board. Some would say there is NOTHING natural about getting 80gr of bio-engineered protein in one shake, yet I do it daily. How is that “natural”?[/quote]
C’mon man, I wiped out everything in-between for simplicity’s sake. I could spend the next few days in an attempt to draw that ‘exact’ line but why bother? Some things are obvious - lots of steroids and no steroids, a classic example, that’s all. In such an example the natural lifter with the same amount of muscle mass as a pro bodybuilder would be able to topple any world record. That would be so because without roids size can’t go far without strength. With roids, however, there’s a larger gap where you can drastically keep improving size while not adding that much strength.
And again, I can’t believe people don’t realise that roids give you a tremendous strength boost. Any time a dude’s working out and he’s jacked it’s like he’s amazed at his own strength and endurance. Especially when it’s their first or second cycle. Not that it isn’t hard work but compared to what a regular guy has to do to attain the same results…mmm, nope, not all that hard. Hell, that’s why people are getting juiced in the first place.
[quote]Majin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
So, anyone taking tribulus isn’t natural? Anyone who ever took a pro-hormone isn’t natural? What about creatine? Unnatural now? You just wiped out most of the people on this board. Some would say there is NOTHING natural about getting 80gr of bio-engineered protein in one shake, yet I do it daily. How is that “natural”?
C’mon man, I wiped out everything in-between for simplicity’s sake. I could spend the next few days in an attempt to draw that ‘exact’ line but why bother? Some things are obvious - lots of steroids and no steroids, a classic example, that’s all. In such an example the natural lifter with the same amount of muscle mass as a pro bodybuilder would be able to topple any world record. That would be so because without roids size can’t go far without strength. With roids, however, there’s a larger gap where you can drastically keep improving size while not adding that much strength.
And again, I can’t believe people don’t realise that roids give you a tremendous strength boost. Any time a dude’s working out and he’s jacked it’s like he’s amazed at his own strength and endurance. Especially when it’s their first or second cycle. Not that it isn’t hard work but compared to what a regular guy has to do to attain the same results…mmm, nope, not all that hard. Hell, that’s why people are getting juiced in the first place.[/quote]
So, everyone who used MAG-10 is now “unnatural”?
[quote]DPH wrote:
all that bbj/muay thai shit is a waste of time…
any teenage kid with a hand gun can easily defeat the best bbj/muay thai fighter on the planet with the pull of a trigger…
[/quote]
This debate, if you could call it that, it just getting completely retarded.
What does fighting have to do with any of this? Like Prof X said, its a completely different sport!
Can prize fighters win gold at the olympics in downhill skiing, gymnastics, diving? No, they couldn’t. Does that mean that they arent “functional”.
Ppl get good at what they practice, its as simple as that.
If you practice maxing out on bench/dead/squat then you’ll be better at these lifts than those who dont max out on them.
If you rep out on the same three lifts, then you’ll be better at repping out on them than those who dont. (The Dr.Squat vs Tom Platz challenge proved that)
Same thing could be said of anything in life.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FUNCTIONAL TRAINING!
It was a marketing ploy. Get over it!
PS: On a side note, saying that doing something is a waste of time because some teenager could shoot you to death is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.
Replace the words bjj/muay thai with any other endeavor and read back your statement.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
The bottom line is, you’ll never lose a fight you don’t get into.[/quote]
Its so true!My opinion is that there is really no reason that you should be fighting except unless your personal safety or the safety of someone else is at risk. There’s just too much bad shit that can happen. In my experience if your at the bar or a party( where it seems that most of these fights happen,funny how booze can do that to ya) its almost never 1-1. I mean who actually goes to the bar or a party alone? I mean one misplaced punch and you could spend alot of time in jail or in the hospital yourself…
As far the Royce Gracie is concerned, the guy is great at what he does,don’t get me wrong but I don’t ever remember him fighting someone who was 350 pounds and could bench press 500 pounds. That type of size and strength difference is overwhelming 75% of the time(a number I just pulled out of my ass) no matter how skilled you are. I mean I don’t see how Gracie could even take him down at nearly 200 pounds lighter than he is.
[quote]MarcAnthony wrote:
Replace the words bjj/muay thai with any other endeavor and read back your statement.[/quote]
Okay…spanking it is a waste of time because some kid could shoot you…umm nope nothing…
[quote]Majin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
So, anyone taking tribulus isn’t natural? Anyone who ever took a pro-hormone isn’t natural? What about creatine? Unnatural now? You just wiped out most of the people on this board. Some would say there is NOTHING natural about getting 80gr of bio-engineered protein in one shake, yet I do it daily. How is that “natural”?
C’mon man, I wiped out everything in-between for simplicity’s sake. I could spend the next few days in an attempt to draw that ‘exact’ line but why bother? Some things are obvious - lots of steroids and no steroids, a classic example, that’s all. In such an example the natural lifter with the same amount of muscle mass as a pro bodybuilder would be able to topple any world record. That would be so because without roids size can’t go far without strength. With roids, however, there’s a larger gap where you can drastically keep improving size while not adding that much strength.
And again, I can’t believe people don’t realise that roids give you a tremendous strength boost. Any time a dude’s working out and he’s jacked it’s like he’s amazed at his own strength and endurance. Especially when it’s their first or second cycle. Not that it isn’t hard work but compared to what a regular guy has to do to attain the same results…mmm, nope, not all that hard. Hell, that’s why people are getting juiced in the first place.[/quote]
Anavar is a steroid, Carbolin 19 is not… yet Carbolin 19 is supposed to have the same effects…so are both “not natural”. Is the guy who takes Carbolin 19 natural even though he takes a substance that can achieve the same results as a steroid?
[quote]MarcAnthony wrote:
PS: On a side note, saying that doing something is a waste of time because some teenager could shoot you to death is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.
Replace the words bjj/muay thai with any other endeavor and read back your statement.
[/quote]
of course it is…
I was using DLboy’s own argument against him…
or didn’t you pick up on that?
[quote]DPH wrote:
MarcAnthony wrote:
PS: On a side note, saying that doing something is a waste of time because some teenager could shoot you to death is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.
Replace the words bjj/muay thai with any other endeavor and read back your statement.
of course it is…
I was using DLboy’s own argument against him…
or didn’t you pick up on that?[/quote]
My bad, I dont read DLboy’s posts.