BJJ Question!

Hi Guys,
I started doing BJJ back in September and was jus wondering how safe is a rear naked choke as in if u were in a self defence situation is it safe to choke someone out? As in theres very little chance of god forbid any permanent damage being done? Just something i always wondered about!

Well let’s think about this for a moment. When performing the RNC, you’re cutting off blood supply to the brain. If the brain is without oxygen for long enough time, it can result in paralysis and possible death.

Yeah, I’d say it’s a tad bit unsafe.

Against someone who doesnt know how to defend against it, a rnc will knock a feller out in less than 10 seconds. Once the guy is knocked out, you let go. If you hold on after he is knocked out you are going to start doing damage.

If you are in a self defense situation then do what you need to. You arent going to win the fight if you take the other guys well being into consideration

As long as you let go when he goes limp, there’s no permanent damage

I’ve heard that an aggressive prosecutor can charge you with attempted murder if you use such a choke in a fight. I’ve never taken the time to look into that being true or not, but the potential for such a charge was enough for me.

If you get into a life or death situation, obviously do whatever you need to in order to survive.

But, most fights are not life or death. They’re a combination of ego and often intoxication. If you get into such a situation and decide to be a putz and pursue the altercation, stay away from chokes. Stick with wrestling and joint locks to control the guy, and if you must strike, use your palms and elbows.

Police will check your knuckles to see if you punched anyone, but cuts on your palms or elbows can be written off as a result of being knocked down during the fight.

If you let go when he passes out, you won’t do any real dammage. That, of course, assumes that you’re doing a blood choke, and not actually comporessing the windpipe. If you compress the windpipe, all bets are off.

I love MMA, BJJ and Muay Thai as much as any other MMA fanatic, but why are there so many posters asking about techniques and styles on this site?

Questions about strength and conditioning for those sports is one thing, but techniques and asking which style you should pick up is another (as I’ve seen others ask).

Dude, there are countless forums on the internet with recognized bjj black belts (who actually compete) and muay thai world champions (who actually fight, not internet fight, but really fight and have made a career out of it) that could better answer your questions.

Or course, “Nick” does post here and according to himself he is such a great fighter and connoisseur of mma that the government made him dip his bare fists in cement and register them as a lethal weapons…

[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
Well let’s think about this for a moment. When performing the RNC, you’re cutting off blood supply to the brain. If the brain is without oxygen for long enough time, it can result in paralysis and possible death.

Yeah, I’d say it’s a tad bit unsafe. [/quote]

Actually this is a fun myth. It is impossible to cut off blood to the brain because of the pressure within arteries. Also your passing arterials are too far away from the surface for a RNC to touch them. Your veins on the other hand…

What actually happens when RNCing is that you block off blood supply away from the brain by compressing the easily compressible veins in the neck. this accumulates CO2 in the brain. Having oxygen is not as important as dispersing CO2 to your body. The accumulation of CO2 is what causes you to be out of breath. So it is the over abundance of CO2 that causes a person to be passed out.

Just a little interesting trivia.

As for the OP’s Q. Try not to use chokes in altercations. the lay people understand it as attempted murder. Breaking their arm using an armbar is much less attributable to killing. Also, when and if you do get into a real altercation you should do what ever you need to live. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Also the reality of an altercation is such that if there is not weapons involved, friends involved or surprise then you are obviously in a magical fairy land where criminals are retarded.

I’m a BJJ purple and MT trainee and I know damn well that all the kung fu in the world does not replace a weapon.

Street fights are about who gets stabbed first. don’t bring your black belt to a knife fight.

-chris

[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
Doug Adams wrote:
don’t bring your black belt to a knife fight.
-chris[/quote]

“A black belt only covers two inches of your ass, you have to cover the rest.” -Royce Gracie

Well I learned my fun fact for the day. Thanks realpb!

As most people say if you keep the choke on after the person passes out you can do some damage.

If you have a good lawyer and justification for using the technique and you can show that you are trained in it you can make a pretty good argument you were going for subduing the person without striking them or dislocating a joint.

Dislocated arms and beaten faces can look bad in court. The choke can sound bad but you will have a chance to plead your side. If you were truly defending yourself and you have no prior issues you should be able to explain this.

That said if you gift wrap someone from the mount they usually calm down pretty quickly. I would make that the goal in most BS ‘street’ (bar) fights that are not really life or death.

But it all depends. If the fight is ‘just’ a bar fight but the guy is way bigger than you, you have to do what you have to do.

And always remember supreme master sensei Ben Johnson’s first rule of self defense…an explosive start.

Listen, if you’re just in some punk bar fight or fighting over a girl, and you put a dude in a RNC, you could get in a lot of trouble.

If you’re going to get mugged or your girlfriend is going to get raped or something, then no one will care if you put the mugger/rapist in a RNC.

Force has to be proportional to the threat you face. You don’t face a “threat” when your girlfriend tells you to beat some guy up after she ran her mouth off to him.

I used to fight a lot, but haven’t been in one in years. If for some reason I got into an “ego” fight, I would never use jiu jitsu. If you’re strong, it’s way too easy to do serious damage.

It’s too easy to take the guy down and he hits the back of his skull on the concrete or breaks his neck, etc. Think about it: At your jiu jitsu studio, after class you start grappling from the ground. That’s not just to learn to fight from the ground: It’s for the student’s safety.

If you could break your neck doing takedowns with other trained people on mats, imagine what could happen in the streets?

Don’t be a douche. Unless your life (or someone else’s) is at risk, don’t fight.

In any event, since you’ve only been taking BJJ since September, I highly doubt you could put a street fighter in one. So your post is more fantasy than reality.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Listen, if you’re just in some punk bar fight or fighting over a girl, and you put a dude in a RNC, you could get in a lot of trouble.
[/quote]
Didn’t we just read something addressing this type of situation? Oh yeah…
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1426363

:wink:

But to address the original question:

I’d rather not go for a choke. I’d distance myself and then split ASAP.

The RNC is not a blood choke. It does not cut off the blood flow to the brain instead it constricts the windpipe. Thus it does have greater lethal potential.

Head and arm = Blood choke
RNC = Air choke
Triangle = both

Again, don’t be looking to take a street fight to the ground as there is a good chance his friend is going to run up and kick you in the ribs.

That aside if your in a fight you do what you need to do. If you put it on for about 3 seconds you will not choke the guy out but you will scare the piss out of him. More then likely they won’t want to continue.

[quote]ScrambyEggs wrote:
The RNC is not a blood choke. It does not cut off the blood flow to the brain instead it constricts the windpipe. Thus it does have greater lethal potential.[/quote]

Hdaka jime, which is what most people mean when they say “rear naked,” is properly taught as a blood choke, with pressure being applied to the sides, not the front, of the neck. It only becomes an attack on the windpipe when people want a quick tap.

If you drop your opponent when he goes limp, your RNC is not likely to result in permanent damage for him. I’ve been involved in judo for a while, took up competitive BJJ a few weeks ago, there is very little chance to kill a guy with a controled RNC. He will faint before.

This is a good way to handle an aggressor, do it standing if you want to avoid a groundfighting situation.

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Listen, if you’re just in some punk bar fight or fighting over a girl, and you put a dude in a RNC, you could get in a lot of trouble.

If you’re going to get mugged or your girlfriend is going to get raped or something, then no one will care if you put the mugger/rapist in a RNC.

Force has to be proportional to the threat you face. You don’t face a “threat” when your girlfriend tells you to beat some guy up after she ran her mouth off to him.

I used to fight a lot, but haven’t been in one in years. If for some reason I got into an “ego” fight, I would never use jiu jitsu. If you’re strong, it’s way too easy to do serious damage.

It’s too easy to take the guy down and he hits the back of his skull on the concrete or breaks his neck, etc. Think about it: At your jiu jitsu studio, after class you start grappling from the ground. That’s not just to learn to fight from the ground: It’s for the student’s safety.

If you could break your neck doing takedowns with other trained people on mats, imagine what could happen in the streets?

Don’t be a douche. Unless your life (or someone else’s) is at risk, don’t fight.
[/quote]

Good post.

[quote]
In any event, since you’ve only been taking BJJ since September, I highly doubt you could put a street fighter in one. So your post is more fantasy than reality.[/quote]

Best part of the post.

Try putting me in a reverse naked headlock or whatever. See what happens when one of my buddies who you didn’t see breaks a beer bottle and stabs you with it.

Street fights are one thing, and that’s unfuckingpredictable.

[quote]thomas.galvin wrote:
ScrambyEggs wrote:
The RNC is not a blood choke. It does not cut off the blood flow to the brain instead it constricts the windpipe. Thus it does have greater lethal potential.

Hdaka jime, which is what most people mean when they say “rear naked,” is properly taught as a blood choke, with pressure being applied to the sides, not the front, of the neck. It only becomes an attack on the windpipe when people want a quick tap.[/quote]

I’d agree with thomas here. What most are inclined to call the “rear naked choke” is a fairly dynamic choke. It can be both a blood choke and a windpipe crusher depending on application.

I’d say it is a blood choke when the elbow is in line with the center of the opponents face and pressure is applied laterally by drawing the wrist to your same arm shoulder, then bridging the chest out. By bridging the chest first and then trying to apply the lateral pressure it is likely to affect the wind pipe.

Alternatively, it is possible to adjust the angle of the forearm so that it becomes more perpendicular to the opponents face and pull back into the windpipe.

Nomenclature often place parameters and borders on concepts that are hard to define verbally. When thinking about things as dynamic as fighting try to think inclusively. You will automatically come up with more submission variations and therefore more tools.

The bullet point to take home here is don’t fight.

the sub points of that would be that the RNC is viewed differently in different areas and in different cases.

“we are all one”
-Genki Sudo

-chris

Anyone who gets caught in a RNC deserves to be in one. It’s simply one of the easiest submission techniques to avoid - especially if you’re on the ground.