[quote]kickbxer wrote:
many people will agree that the best escape from an armbar (or other submissions) is a good hit to the face, and now that fighters know more ground than they did, bjj isnt the fight ender like it once was[/quote]
Um…how do you punch someone in the face while they have you in an armbar?
If that could somehow have been done I think Royce Gracie would have probably done that to Matt Hughes prior to Hughes popping Rocyces elbow capsule.
No?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
kickbxer wrote:
many people will agree that the best escape from an armbar (or other submissions) is a good hit to the face, and now that fighters know more ground than they did, bjj isnt the fight ender like it once was
Um…how do you punch someone in the face while they have you in an armbar?
If that could somehow have been done I think Royce Gracie would have probably done that to Matt Hughes prior to Hughes popping Rocyces elbow capsule.
No?[/quote]
Matt Hughes had Gracie in a Kimura not an armbar. Im not sure if the best defence for an armbar is punching someone in the face, im not sure you have ever been in an armbar i cant see how you would punch someone.
[quote]sactown1 wrote:
Matt Hughes had Gracie in a Kimura not an armbar. Im not sure if the best defence for an armbar is punching someone in the face, im not sure you have ever been in an armbar i cant see how you would punch someone.[/quote]
I think it’s a matter of semantics. Hughes clearly had Royce in what I was taught to call a straight armbar from the sidemount - until Royce’s elbow started bending the wrong way, it was straight, not bent like you would do with a Kimura.
IME, going for this leads to a Kimura or a v-lock (Americana for you BJJ types) and it’s only the newest guys that actually get caught in the straight arm bar - frankly I was stunned that Royce couldn’t get out of it. Maybe he was afraid of it turning into a Kimura - what Gracie is going to lose by that again?
Also, I’ve totally been able to punch people while I’m in an armbar - if they have a Japanese armbar and they’re trying to lock it in and you can stack them, you’re right there. Granted, if they’re on the ball, they can easily kick their legs down as soon as you let go of your own arm. But, if they’re not that close to having it locked in, damn straight they’re eating leather if they can’t think quickly enough to let go of the arm.
[quote]sactown1 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kickbxer wrote:
many people will agree that the best escape from an armbar (or other submissions) is a good hit to the face, and now that fighters know more ground than they did, bjj isnt the fight ender like it once was
Um…how do you punch someone in the face while they have you in an armbar?
If that could somehow have been done I think Royce Gracie would have probably done that to Matt Hughes prior to Hughes popping Rocyces elbow capsule.
No?
Matt Hughes had Gracie in a Kimura not an armbar. Im not sure if the best defence for an armbar is punching someone in the face, im not sure you have ever been in an armbar i cant see how you would punch someone.[/quote]
Yes you are right it was a Kimura. But the point is the same. How do you punch someone in the face when your arm is locked in such a position?
there are about 490843 types of armbar and im sure most of you are only thinking of one… btw matt had royce in an american armbar for a while and switched. From experience grapplers dont like being hit in the face while preforming their submissions, of course it isnt sure fire. Often they are much more comfortable in most cases rolling and not thinking about getting hit.
[quote]kickbxer wrote:
there are about 490843 types of armbar and im sure most of you are only thinking of one… btw matt had royce in an american armbar for a while and switched. From experience grapplers dont like being hit in the face while preforming their submissions, of course it isnt sure fire. Often they are much more comfortable in most cases rolling and not thinking about getting hit.[/quote]
Keep in mind in the early days when it was pure grappling (whatever style) against pure striking (any style) the grapplers usually won every single tournament.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
kickbxer wrote:
there are about 490843 types of armbar and im sure most of you are only thinking of one… btw matt had royce in an american armbar for a while and switched. From experience grapplers dont like being hit in the face while preforming their submissions, of course it isnt sure fire. Often they are much more comfortable in most cases rolling and not thinking about getting hit.
Keep in mind in the early days when it was pure grappling (whatever style) against pure striking (any style) the grapplers usually won every single tournament.
[/quote]
Again, this happened because the strikers did not practice their striking from the ground at all. They fell on their back, panicked, gassed, got caught in a submission that (at the time) they had probably never seen before. At that point anyone is easy to pick off especially if they don’t even realize your setting up a hold.
[quote]Cluster wrote:
How much less force is exerted as a result of the glove? How many punches that would have been bareknuckle KOs merely rock the opponent or do no damage at all as a result of wearing gloves?
If you don’t have answers for those (and why not, it’s simple Newtonian physics and basic scientific observation?), let’ make it: are the gloves a significant factor?
[/quote]
so your answer is a question?
[quote]Cluster wrote:
i have been in plenty of fights, and the KO’s come a lot easier and sooner in a bar than they do in the ring. also, check out how long bare-knuckle fights last compared to fights with gloves.
Why do you think that is? Does the potential disparity in skill and defensive capability between professional MMA fighters and barroom brawlers have anything to do with it?
Also, how much longer does a bareknuckle fight last than a gloved fight? Could part of the reason be that two highly skilled combat athletes who have a variety of options for victory (KO, TKO, submission, decision) can afford to take their time to play with the pacing of a fight when they don’t have to worry about things like cops showing up, friends of their enemy jumping in, etc. and have time to bait thier opponent (whom they spend X months preparing specifically for) into making a mistake?
[/quote]
that quote was supposed to be two statements. i was responding to the one poster about whether i had ever fought (in or out of the ring). the other was in reference to bare-knuckle fights between trained fighters in the ring, not fights outside of the ring, so disparity in skill, police, and other combatants are not an issue.
[quote]rawda wrote:
Cluster wrote:
i have been in plenty of fights, and the KO’s come a lot easier and sooner in a bar than they do in the ring. also, check out how long bare-knuckle fights last compared to fights with gloves.
Why do you think that is? Does the potential disparity in skill and defensive capability between professional MMA fighters and barroom brawlers have anything to do with it?
Also, how much longer does a bareknuckle fight last than a gloved fight? Could part of the reason be that two highly skilled combat athletes who have a variety of options for victory (KO, TKO, submission, decision) can afford to take their time to play with the pacing of a fight when they don’t have to worry about things like cops showing up, friends of their enemy jumping in, etc. and have time to bait thier opponent (whom they spend X months preparing specifically for) into making a mistake?
that quote was supposed to be two statements. i was responding to the one poster about whether i had ever fought (in or out of the ring). the other was in reference to bare-knuckle fights between trained fighters in the ring, not fights outside of the ring, so disparity in skill, police, and other combatants are not an issue.
[/quote]
Jeez I was going to let it slide but bro, your post about physics was plain fucking stupid. How the F do gloves slow a punch down? Or cut the distance? Are you kidding? What are you smoking?
You think gloves that are measured in OUNCES affect force in any significant manner? I suggest you go back to that physics class and do your calculations again. You’re just wrong. Of course, the expletive were not intended to imply disrespect but exasperation with your post. Let it go. You’re wrong.
[quote]ScrambyEggs wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kickbxer wrote:
there are about 490843 types of armbar and im sure most of you are only thinking of one… btw matt had royce in an american armbar for a while and switched. From experience grapplers dont like being hit in the face while preforming their submissions, of course it isnt sure fire. Often they are much more comfortable in most cases rolling and not thinking about getting hit.
Keep in mind in the early days when it was pure grappling (whatever style) against pure striking (any style) the grapplers usually won every single tournament.
Again, this happened because the strikers did not practice their striking from the ground at all. They fell on their back, panicked, gassed, got caught in a submission that (at the time) they had probably never seen before. At that point anyone is easy to pick off especially if they don’t even realize your setting up a hold.
[/quote]
No, that was because they didn’t wear gloves. You can’t repeatedly strike anyone in the head bare-handed without breaking your hand pretty quickly.
Take the gloves away, and it will be a groundfest again.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Jeez I was going to let it slide but bro, your post about physics was plain fucking stupid. How the F do gloves slow a punch down? Or cut the distance? Are you kidding? What are you smoking?
You think gloves that are measured in OUNCES affect force in any significant manner? I suggest you go back to that physics class and do your calculations again. You’re just wrong. Of course, the expletive were not intended to imply disrespect but exasperation with your post. Let it go. You’re wrong.
[/quote]
i know. physics is totally stupid and has nothing to do with force, momentum, impact, etc. thank God engineers don’t actually use that in real life for anything important, like airbags. because then they might not work. you know, to make boxing more safe, they should make little airbags to put on the boxers’ fists, because then their heads would absorb less damage. (hint: that’s a metaphor, hopefully i don’t have to spell it out for you)
i never said gloves slow a punch down, i said they decelerate the force of the punch. it has nothing to do with the speed at which the punch is thrown.
i never said anything about gloves cutting distance. crack is whack.
all boxing gloves are measured in ounces, by the way.
i honestly don’t know how you can disagree against the physics of the punch/punch with glove. this isn’t something i made up, and it’s not my original idea. this effect is already known. this is in the same vein as arguing against gravity, ie, a losing battle.
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.
I would recommend you all watch Mark Kerr G’nP without gloves from the early World Champs in Vale Tudo (down in brazil). He does 3-4-5 fights a night and G’nPs quite a lot… conditioning of knuckles is the answer i quess… 
About the gloves. There’s no need for a dicussion. Gloves deccelerates the punch, reducing the force, like someone else wrote.
Look as this for a detailed explanation:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=587850
[quote]kickbxer wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.[/quote]
I am only looking at verifiable tournaments. Those which were documented to have happened and can be seen by all.
I am not aware of any quantifiable, verifiable, seen by all tournaments where there were no, or few rules where a pure grappler did not usually dominate a pure striker.
If you have some evidence to the contrary, video clip, well documented narrative, etc. I would love to see it.
Just an FYI. BJJ for street is about mounting not about PULLING GUARD. No one who does BJJ looks to PULL GUARD in the street. You use the guard when you are forced to because you get taken down by a bigger/better guy.
I do BJJ. I don’t pull guard. I get put there by bigger/better/stronger dudes for certain and I work what I can. It is not the goal of the style but a response to what would otherwise be a complete domination by your opponent (in the case that you have no gaurd and now the big guy is on top of you)
Or his realtive hand size to his opponents skull size maybe. He was way bigger than his oppenents. He also used his head as head butting was allowed.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
I would recommend you all watch Mark Kerr G’nP without gloves from the early World Champs in Vale Tudo (down in brazil). He does 3-4-5 fights a night and G’nPs quite a lot… conditioning of knuckles is the answer i quess… :)[/quote]
I’m not trying to be a dick but you are kidding right?
[quote]kickbxer wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.[/quote]
I mean to judge a style by an athlete/instructor who is really not qualified is not really saying much. Train with a blue belt or up from a main academy and you’ll be impressed I would think. But the guy running a class should be a brown or black belt if you really want to see what it’s about. I took taiji quan in college from a master and was not impressed. Maybe it was just him.
[quote]wyrd1 wrote:
I take taiji quan and attended a BJJ class. I have to say I was unimpressed, I had to be really cooperative for people to apply any sort of lock or choke, any time I resisted I got out. I was comfortable on the ground even though I have never trained to be there. Then again the instructor was a BLUE belt. Maybe I got shorted.[/quote]