BJJ in MMA

Training Powerlifting
102

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
I’m not trying to be a dick but you are kidding right?

kickbxer wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.

[/quote]

  1. (not from this quote): WTF does Mark Kerr’s size have to do with his knuckles working perfectly well without gloves…?

  2. Pancration is an anicent sport… and different sorts of mma-type of arrangements have been happening around the world ever since. The UFC was a commercial showcase for BJJ, nothing more, nothing less… :slight_smile:

103

Another styel vs style. It boils down to the fighter not the style.I do Combat Sambo because I like it. If someone likes Wushu, good for them.Better that than a drunk bum, living off welfare! Just Train! and do your best!

104

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
I’m not trying to be a dick but you are kidding right?

kickbxer wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.

  1. (not from this quote): WTF does Mark Kerr’s size have to do with his knuckles working perfectly well without gloves…?

  2. Pancration is an anicent sport… and different sorts of mma-type of arrangements have been happening around the world ever since. The UFC was a commercial showcase for BJJ, nothing more, nothing less… :slight_smile:
    [/quote]

For the hand size thing. Let me say it like this. Gloves HELP your power cause your hands are wrapped underneath, like a cast. They also protect your hand. So no matter who you are you probabaly need a few punch combo to ko someone. Gloves help you not to break your hand. In the case of mark kerr, when he fought bare knuckle, I believe he did hurt his hand but it was also in the days of no weight class. His bones were way bigger/denser than many of his opponents, so he may not have busted up his 265lber hand on a 185lbers head. But, if a guy 200lbs hits a big head like Kerr’s without gloves too many times in not just the right way, he’s gonna break his hand. No?
Fighters still break hands with protection. I can say that I’ve been hit with a good wrapped hand in an mma glove and it was like getting hit with a pipe. I would rather the bare knuckle. Maybe bare offers slight incrase of a cut but I’ll take that chance.

Pancration and all the gladiator games were the first UFC…So what is the point? That was eons ago. The UFC brought mixed martial arts to the spotlight to filter out all the BS.
BJJ did well and now everyone does it. Even the strikers and wrestlers you see train some BJJ. And BJJ’ers do or should be doing boxing, wrestling, thai.
I mean, Rorion Gracie talked condescendingly about other styles to sell his art. But guys like Renzo, Royce, Rickson, the Machados always respected Sambo, Judo, wrestling, boxing, thai. They always trained with those guys and always responded to what worked with counters and the game evolved. Catch guys and pancration guys do a lot of similar stuff and to me it seems like they try to say, hey look all this is pancration or catch and it’s like, yeah but where were you before the UFC? They did not have the system down enough to work it against bigger tougher dudes. They did not have good defensive guards and I never even heard of that despite being heavily into martial arts. I heard of Judo and Sambo and JKD and all kinds of things. The way BJJ put things together was different to the extent that I think it was it’s own art. Some judo guys say no, some other people say no. But ADCC sub grappling is open to all, and BJJ wins that. MMA is open to all, and all MMA guys do some form of bjj, whatever they want to call it.

105

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
I’m not trying to be a dick but you are kidding right?

kickbxer wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.

  1. (not from this quote): WTF does Mark Kerr’s size have to do with his knuckles working perfectly well without gloves…?

  2. Pancration is an anicent sport… and different sorts of mma-type of arrangements have been happening around the world ever since. The UFC was a commercial showcase for BJJ, nothing more, nothing less… :slight_smile:

For the hand size thing. Let me say it like this. Gloves HELP your power cause your hands are wrapped underneath, like a cast. They also protect your hand. So no matter who you are you probabaly need a few punch combo to ko someone. Gloves help you not to break your hand. In the case of mark kerr, when he fought bare knuckle, I believe he did hurt his hand but it was also in the days of no weight class. His bones were way bigger/denser than many of his opponents, so he may not have busted up his 265lber hand on a 185lbers head. But, if a guy 200lbs hits a big head like Kerr’s without gloves too many times in not just the right way, he’s gonna break his hand. No?
Fighters still break hands with protection. I can say that I’ve been hit with a good wrapped hand in an mma glove and it was like getting hit with a pipe. I would rather the bare knuckle. Maybe bare offers slight incrase of a cut but I’ll take that chance.

Pancration and all the gladiator games were the first UFC…So what is the point? That was eons ago. The UFC brought mixed martial arts to the spotlight to filter out all the BS.
BJJ did well and now everyone does it. Even the strikers and wrestlers you see train some BJJ. And BJJ’ers do or should be doing boxing, wrestling, thai.
I mean, Rorion Gracie talked condescendingly about other styles to sell his art. But guys like Renzo, Royce, Rickson, the Machados always respected Sambo, Judo, wrestling, boxing, thai. They always trained with those guys and always responded to what worked with counters and the game evolved. Catch guys and pancration guys do a lot of similar stuff and to me it seems like they try to say, hey look all this is pancration or catch and it’s like, yeah but where were you before the UFC? They did not have the system down enough to work it against bigger tougher dudes. They did not have good defensive guards and I never even heard of that despite being heavily into martial arts. I heard of Judo and Sambo and JKD and all kinds of things. The way BJJ put things together was different to the extent that I think it was it’s own art. Some judo guys say no, some other people say no. But ADCC sub grappling is open to all, and BJJ wins that. MMA is open to all, and all MMA guys do some form of bjj, whatever they want to call it.
[/quote]

Do the gloves protect your hand? Yes… Do they protect the target of your hits? YES. This is simple physics PER punch… but is it this easy? NO… I get punched in the head by boxing gloves and mma-gloves on a regular basis and by bare hands on a not so regular basis (I work as a bouncer). And my experience is that a single blow from an ungloved hand is much more painfull than a gloved punch… BUT, the fact that you can deliver more punches with gloves on will make a difference in the ring… but stating that gloves won’t lessen the force applied is just ignorant, for each individual punch: IT WILL!.

106

Painful maybe. But that after you’re punched you feel pain means that they didn’t hit you in just the right spot, hard/fast enough. Gloves or not when done right you don’t feel any pain.
And to be ignorant. MMA gloves with wraps do not lessen the force of the punch. Perhaps a slight lessening of the pain in the case it is not a good punch and you feel it at all.

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
I’m not trying to be a dick but you are kidding right?

kickbxer wrote:
Also lets keep in mind the ‘history’ of mma isnt just UFC. There have been fights like the kumate in bloodsport happening too long to contemplate. So when you say the grapplers usually dominated you are talking about the early 90’s and UFC, well ya they did but thats was just a cheap copy of the real deal at that time.

  1. (not from this quote): WTF does Mark Kerr’s size have to do with his knuckles working perfectly well without gloves…?

  2. Pancration is an anicent sport… and different sorts of mma-type of arrangements have been happening around the world ever since. The UFC was a commercial showcase for BJJ, nothing more, nothing less… :slight_smile:

For the hand size thing. Let me say it like this. Gloves HELP your power cause your hands are wrapped underneath, like a cast. They also protect your hand. So no matter who you are you probabaly need a few punch combo to ko someone. Gloves help you not to break your hand. In the case of mark kerr, when he fought bare knuckle, I believe he did hurt his hand but it was also in the days of no weight class. His bones were way bigger/denser than many of his opponents, so he may not have busted up his 265lber hand on a 185lbers head. But, if a guy 200lbs hits a big head like Kerr’s without gloves too many times in not just the right way, he’s gonna break his hand. No?
Fighters still break hands with protection. I can say that I’ve been hit with a good wrapped hand in an mma glove and it was like getting hit with a pipe. I would rather the bare knuckle. Maybe bare offers slight incrase of a cut but I’ll take that chance.

Pancration and all the gladiator games were the first UFC…So what is the point? That was eons ago. The UFC brought mixed martial arts to the spotlight to filter out all the BS.
BJJ did well and now everyone does it. Even the strikers and wrestlers you see train some BJJ. And BJJ’ers do or should be doing boxing, wrestling, thai.
I mean, Rorion Gracie talked condescendingly about other styles to sell his art. But guys like Renzo, Royce, Rickson, the Machados always respected Sambo, Judo, wrestling, boxing, thai. They always trained with those guys and always responded to what worked with counters and the game evolved. Catch guys and pancration guys do a lot of similar stuff and to me it seems like they try to say, hey look all this is pancration or catch and it’s like, yeah but where were you before the UFC? They did not have the system down enough to work it against bigger tougher dudes. They did not have good defensive guards and I never even heard of that despite being heavily into martial arts. I heard of Judo and Sambo and JKD and all kinds of things. The way BJJ put things together was different to the extent that I think it was it’s own art. Some judo guys say no, some other people say no. But ADCC sub grappling is open to all, and BJJ wins that. MMA is open to all, and all MMA guys do some form of bjj, whatever they want to call it.

Do the gloves protect your hand? Yes… Do they protect the target of your hits? YES. This is simple physics PER punch… but is it this easy? NO… I get punched in the head by boxing gloves and mma-gloves on a regular basis and by bare hands on a not so regular basis (I work as a bouncer). And my experience is that a single blow from an ungloved hand is much more painfull than a gloved punch… BUT, the fact that you can deliver more punches with gloves on will make a difference in the ring… but stating that gloves won’t lessen the force applied is just ignorant, for each individual punch: IT WILL!.

[/quote]

107

[quote]Scrappy wrote:

Pancration and all the gladiator games were the first UFC…So what is the point? That was eons ago. The UFC brought mixed martial arts to the spotlight to filter out all the BS.
BJJ did well and now everyone does it. Even the strikers and wrestlers you see train some BJJ. And BJJ’ers do or should be doing boxing, wrestling, thai.
I mean, Rorion Gracie talked condescendingly about other styles to sell his art. But guys like Renzo, Royce, Rickson, the Machados always respected Sambo, Judo, wrestling, boxing, thai. They always trained with those guys and always responded to what worked with counters and the game evolved. Catch guys and pancration guys do a lot of similar stuff and to me it seems like they try to say, hey look all this is pancration or catch and it’s like, yeah but where were you before the UFC? They did not have the system down enough to work it against bigger tougher dudes. They did not have good defensive guards and I never even heard of that despite being heavily into martial arts. I heard of Judo and Sambo and JKD and all kinds of things. The way BJJ put things together was different to the extent that I think it was it’s own art. Some judo guys say no, some other people say no. But ADCC sub grappling is open to all, and BJJ wins that. MMA is open to all, and all MMA guys do some form of bjj, whatever they want to call it.
[/quote]

I see what you are saying. I do not know what exactly you mean by all mma guys do some form of bjj though.
I think the lines a blurring. Do you count all forms of submission grappling as some form of bjj? You would probably be right that most mma guys train bjj. Then again most mma guys train boxing also.

108

I agree that most train boxing and do think most train bjj. They may want to call boxing kempo or bjj something else, but I promise, when they are refining techniques and learning the best ways to train, they are going to boxers for punching and bjj for sub grappling. Wrestling for takedowns and thai for knees/kick/clinch. The thing is that where I trained BJJ they were doing this in 1996.

It was like, hey, we use what works. Elbows, knees, thai clinch, thai kick, wrestling takedowns, judo throws…it’s all in there. And the way they are constantly testing each other in training helped them refine and define the crucial elements of the technique and what makes it fail/succeed. It’s as someone mentioned before, what Matt Thornton always says. Training with aliveness is the key. Without the aliveness the art is dead art. BJJ, boxing, thai, wrestling, judo are all alive. Many martial arts in the past were not trained that way. As long as what your doing is alive who cares what you call it. But for sub grappling comps like ADCC, BJJ players do the best. Yes, some other athletes do well, but with the addition of BJJ to their sambo, judo or wrestling.

[quote]otoko wrote:
Scrappy wrote:

Pancration and all the gladiator games were the first UFC…So what is the point? That was eons ago. The UFC brought mixed martial arts to the spotlight to filter out all the BS.
BJJ did well and now everyone does it. Even the strikers and wrestlers you see train some BJJ. And BJJ’ers do or should be doing boxing, wrestling, thai.
I mean, Rorion Gracie talked condescendingly about other styles to sell his art. But guys like Renzo, Royce, Rickson, the Machados always respected Sambo, Judo, wrestling, boxing, thai. They always trained with those guys and always responded to what worked with counters and the game evolved. Catch guys and pancration guys do a lot of similar stuff and to me it seems like they try to say, hey look all this is pancration or catch and it’s like, yeah but where were you before the UFC? They did not have the system down enough to work it against bigger tougher dudes. They did not have good defensive guards and I never even heard of that despite being heavily into martial arts. I heard of Judo and Sambo and JKD and all kinds of things. The way BJJ put things together was different to the extent that I think it was it’s own art. Some judo guys say no, some other people say no. But ADCC sub grappling is open to all, and BJJ wins that. MMA is open to all, and all MMA guys do some form of bjj, whatever they want to call it.

I see what you are saying. I do not know what exactly you mean by all mma guys do some form of bjj though.
I think the lines a blurring. Do you count all forms of submission grappling as some form of bjj? You would probably be right that most mma guys train bjj. Then again most mma guys train boxing also.
[/quote]

109

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
I agree that most train boxing and do think most train bjj. They may want to call boxing kempo or bjj something else, but I promise, when they are refining techniques and learning the best ways to train, they are going to boxers for punching and bjj for sub grappling. Wrestling for takedowns and thai for knees/kick/clinch. The thing is that where I trained BJJ they were doing this in 1996.

It was like, hey, we use what works. Elbows, knees, thai clinch, thai kick, wrestling takedowns, judo throws…it’s all in there. And the way they are constantly testing each other in training helped them refine and define the crucial elements of the technique and what makes it fail/succeed. It’s as someone mentioned before, what Matt Thornton always says. Training with aliveness is the key. Without the aliveness the art is dead art. BJJ, boxing, thai, wrestling, judo are all alive. Many martial arts in the past were not trained that way. As long as what your doing is alive who cares what you call it. But for sub grappling comps like ADCC, BJJ players do the best. Yes, some other athletes do well, but with the addition of BJJ to their sambo, judo or wrestling.
[/quote]
Ok I see. Honestly I have never done BJJ. I did Judo when I was a kid. We have bjj　here in Japan. But we also have many MMA schools. Usually current or former pros in Shooto or Pancrase. SO it is all mixed up. They all had a background in BJJ or Sambo. The generation after them is learning from the mma pros. SO things do not get identified, guard, mount, submission. I know they originally came from BJJ or Sambo. I hope I make sense.
I don’t know exactly what would be different if I took strictly BJJ. Are there some distinctions?
I will try it then also.

110

There may or may not be differences. Where I learned Judo, BJJ was a completely different art to me. totally different…
But it’s all about where you train. Some judo schools do so much ne-waza that it really looks like bjj or bjj looks like it. I will say that often the details of bjj have made the difference for me. I’ve trained with Renzo and many of his black belts. I found it to be a very well rounded and technical school. Here and there I’ve trained other places and I’ve seen super athletes, no question. However, I really felt that Renzo and his guys can teach a total decue how to be pretty good. And that is really what I need, good teachers who can convey to me why when I see two guillotines that look the same but one works and one doesn’t. So if the sambo, judo whatever is mma focused and the bjj you train at is mma focused they should all look similar. Also, it depends on your goals. I got into BJJ for street as I was into ‘street’ arts before that and after realizing many traditional martial arts are unrealistic (at least where I trained).
But now I am into training Gi BJJ #1, no-gi grappling, mma and don’t even consider ‘street’. And this wasn’t anyone’s influence but where I’m at personally right now. Where I am you can find people who are trying to win the UFC, hobby no-gi guys, gi freaks and street freaks so you just get with people with similar goals.

If you’re into MMA to compete and you’re younger, go for that. And an MMA focused school will be good for that I would think. It’s alive and it’s fun. After a long time of many different styles and instructors, I’ve really found one that I love and that’s important. I’ve also found teachers who are great and that is just as important. There is a karate school somewhere, where, the way they train they are tough dudes. There are BJJ schools out there that are not technical and the guys are not good fighters. It’s all about the teacher. Just watch Tito teach/coach and watch Ken Shamrock teach/coach.

[quote]otoko wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
I agree that most train boxing and do think most train bjj. They may want to call boxing kempo or bjj something else, but I promise, when they are refining techniques and learning the best ways to train, they are going to boxers for punching and bjj for sub grappling. Wrestling for takedowns and thai for knees/kick/clinch. The thing is that where I trained BJJ they were doing this in 1996.
It was like, hey, we use what works. Elbows, knees, thai clinch, thai kick, wrestling takedowns, judo throws…it’s all in there. And the way they are constantly testing each other in training helped them refine and define the crucial elements of the technique and what makes it fail/succeed. It’s as someone mentioned before, what Matt Thornton always says. Training with aliveness is the key. Without the aliveness the art is dead art. BJJ, boxing, thai, wrestling, judo are all alive. Many martial arts in the past were not trained that way. As long as what your doing is alive who cares what you call it. But for sub grappling comps like ADCC, BJJ players do the best. Yes, some other athletes do well, but with the addition of BJJ to their sambo, judo or wrestling.

Ok I see. Honestly I have never done BJJ. I did Judo when I was a kid. We have bjj　here in Japan. But we also have many MMA schools. Usually current or former pros in Shooto or Pancrase. SO it is all mixed up. They all had a background in BJJ or Sambo. The generation after them is learning from the mma pros. SO things do not get identified, guard, mount, submission. I know they originally came from BJJ or Sambo. I hope I make sense.
I don’t know exactly what would be different if I took strictly BJJ. Are there some distinctions?
I will try it then also. [/quote]

111

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
There may or may not be differences. Where I learned Judo, BJJ was a completely different art to me. totally different…
But it’s all about where you train. Some judo schools do so much ne-waza that it really looks like bjj or bjj looks like it. I will say that often the details of bjj have made the difference for me. I’ve trained with Renzo and many of his black belts. I found it to be a very well rounded and technical school. Here and there I’ve trained other places and I’ve seen super athletes, no question. However, I really felt that Renzo and his guys can teach a total decue how to be pretty good. And that is really what I need, good teachers who can convey to me why when I see two guillotines that look the same but one works and one doesn’t. So if the sambo, judo whatever is mma focused and the bjj you train at is mma focused they should all look similar. Also, it depends on your goals. I got into BJJ for street as I was into ‘street’ arts before that and after realizing many traditional martial arts are unrealistic (at least where I trained).
But now I am into training Gi BJJ #1, no-gi grappling, mma and don’t even consider ‘street’. And this wasn’t anyone’s influence but where I’m at personally right now. Where I am you can find people who are trying to win the UFC, hobby no-gi guys, gi freaks and street freaks so you just get with people with similar goals.

If you’re into MMA to compete and you’re younger, go for that. And an MMA focused school will be good for that I would think. It’s alive and it’s fun. After a long time of many different styles and instructors, I’ve really found one that I love and that’s important. I’ve also found teachers who are great and that is just as important. There is a karate school somewhere, where, the way they train they are tough dudes. There are BJJ schools out there that are not technical and the guys are not good fighters. It’s all about the teacher. Just watch Tito teach/coach and watch Ken Shamrock teach/coach.
[/quote]
Thank you for clearing that up. Yes I have been training for a while. I just have never trained at a BJJ only place. Guys with the background I have rolled with yes. They have many newaza. Very hard to submit. Ground control I have no problem with, or when they are standing. Or if I grab their belt or pant leg. I think I will try it BJJ out, in supplement to what I am alrady doing.

112

[quote]wyrd1 wrote:
I take taiji quan and attended a BJJ class. I have to say I was unimpressed, I had to be really cooperative for people to apply any sort of lock or choke, any time I resisted I got out. I was comfortable on the ground even though I have never trained to be there. Then again the instructor was a BLUE belt. Maybe I got shorted.[/quote]

I have to say that if you were able to just “get out of” a lock or choke then you were rolling with some terrible BJJ practicioners.

-Fireplug

113

[quote]fireplug52 wrote:
wyrd1 wrote:
I take taiji quan and attended a BJJ class. I have to say I was unimpressed, I had to be really cooperative for people to apply any sort of lock or choke, any time I resisted I got out. I was comfortable on the ground even though I have never trained to be there. Then again the instructor was a BLUE belt. Maybe I got shorted.

I have to say that if you were able to just “get out of” a lock or choke then you were rolling with some terrible BJJ practicioners.

-Fireplug[/quote]

Yes I agree. I think if they had it locked in any amount of resistance would have been futile. They were going easy on you maybe? I usually have to pick up guys or be moving very aggressively so as not to be caught.

114

When I trained with Royce Gracie (only a few weeks don’t be impressed) back in 98’ I asked him “how do you get out of that choke hold?”

He said “the same way you get out of a right cross that just landed on your jaw.”

“Oh” I said…

115

[quote]rg73 wrote:
BJJ is still a major part of MMA. Simply because Gracie is not the best at it anymore doesn’t mean that other people do not use it as a major part of their game.

Lets not forget that in UFC 60, Dean Lister applied a beautiful, very technical triangle on Sakara–textbook BJJ. Of the 9 fights in UFC 60, half were decided by submission (1 triangle, 1 armbar, 2 guillotines). Hughes dominated Gracie using BJJ techniques–what he was doing on the ground (before he started bashing in Royce’s face) was BJJ, not wrestling. So it is a total misconception that BJJ is not a major part of the sport still.

Sure, you don’t need BJJ, but you need some form of submission grappling (judo, sambo, etc.). But, no, pure BJJ guys can’t compete anymore–just like pure strikers can’t compete. You need a well rounded game, and that will only come by having knowledge of both stand up and ground.[/quote]

Hi rg73,

I agree with your last paragraph completely. Grappling and knowledge of submissions are essential skill sets for excelling in MMA today. I think we also need to realize that (as you stated), not all submission grappling is BJJ. What Hughes did to Gracie couldn’t necessarily be labeled BJJ because BJJ does not have any kind of monopoly on ground positions. The guard, mount, and side control are not original to BJJ.

I’d have to disagree with your observation of Dean Lister’s triangle however. It was neither beautiful, nor technically impressive. In fact, Lister wouldn’t have been able to choke Sakura out with that triangle. Sakura simply didn’t know how to escape the position, and didn’t realize that he wouldn’t go out in the position.

As for the guillotine chokes… Once again, the guys who got guillotined simply didn’t know how to defend the position. This is obvious by the fact that neither of them even attempted to escape.

Good training,

Sentoguy

116

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
rg73 wrote:
BJJ is still a major part of MMA. Simply because Gracie is not the best at it anymore doesn’t mean that other people do not use it as a major part of their game.

Lets not forget that in UFC 60, Dean Lister applied a beautiful, very technical triangle on Sakara–textbook BJJ. Of the 9 fights in UFC 60, half were decided by submission (1 triangle, 1 armbar, 2 guillotines). Hughes dominated Gracie using BJJ techniques–what he was doing on the ground (before he started bashing in Royce’s face) was BJJ, not wrestling. So it is a total misconception that BJJ is not a major part of the sport still.

Sure, you don’t need BJJ, but you need some form of submission grappling (judo, sambo, etc.). But, no, pure BJJ guys can’t compete anymore–just like pure strikers can’t compete. You need a well rounded game, and that will only come by having knowledge of both stand up and ground.

Hi rg73,

I agree with your last paragraph completely. Grappling and knowledge of submissions are essential skill sets for excelling in MMA today. I think we also need to realize that (as you stated), not all submission grappling is BJJ. What Hughes did to Gracie couldn’t necessarily be labeled BJJ because BJJ does not have any kind of monopoly on ground positions. The guard, mount, and side control are not original to BJJ.

I’d have to disagree with your observation of Dean Lister’s triangle however. It was neither beautiful, nor technically impressive. In fact, Lister wouldn’t have been able to choke Sakura out with that triangle. Sakura simply didn’t know how to escape the position, and didn’t realize that he wouldn’t go out in the position.

As for the guillotine chokes… Once again, the guys who got guillotined simply didn’t know how to defend the position. This is obvious by the fact that neither of them even attempted to escape.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I wonder how come these advanced martial artists who train full time and base their living on fighting, don’t know how to escape these basic maneuvers?

They must be dumb huh?

117

Again, BJJ is not dead.

Lister, Nogueira, Penn, GSP, Nick Diaz and hell even Aurelio kicked Gomi’s ass in what might be called a fluke.

Once again, it depends on your area of expertise as to what you do with your ground skills.

Combat Sambo is in no way better than BJJ/Wrestling/(kick)Boxing or BJJ/Judo/(kick)boxing. Just because one man mauls BJJ guys doesn’t mean it’s not any good. Fedor is a machine, a hard-working cyborg killing machine.

118

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

  1. (not from this quote): WTF does Mark Kerr’s size have to do with his knuckles working perfectly well without gloves…?

[/quote]

Distribution of force. Larger hand, the force on your knuckles is more spread out, you are less likely to break your hand. Same thing with wraps/gloves. If you think the padding is slowing down the punch significantly you are a dumbass. The glove is spreading out the force over the entire front part of your fist so you don’t break your hand as easily. This also results in more generalised damage, so it doesn’t feel as painful and isn’t as likely to result in a knockout.

Tank Abbott wore gloves in the very beginning, before they were mandatory. I think that was a smart decision. I don’t know if in one fight a striker would have an advantage without gloves. But I’m absolutely positive with no gloves there would be less striking simply because the people that did strike all the time would be constantly on the DL due to broken hands. It simply wouldn’t be a smart decision for a fighter to punch all the time.

119

This endless glove/no glove debate is ridiculous. Let’s give the other side the benefit of the doubt, and say that wearing gloves does indeed lessen the impact of a punch (which it probably does; the degree to which it does is more debatable).

Even if this is the case, the protection afforded to the fighter’s hands by the glove allows him to punch harder and more frequently than he would otherwise be able to. If you’re constantly having to worry about breaking your hands, you will likely:

  1. not punch as hard or avoid potentially problematic targets (such as the head), whether consciously or unconsciously, as aversion to pain is a difficult reflex to overcome, and 2. be a much more discriminating striker, in that your punches must be delivered in such a manner as to maximize the probability of damage to the opponent and minimize the probability of damage to yourself, which lessens the number of punches thrown and correspondingly reduces the chances of a knockout.

With gloves, neither of these concerns are an issue, therefore the striker’s strategy becomes much more viable in MMA, due to his ability to dish out punishment without having to worry about his own safety.

120

Was this thread about BJJ being dead?

I think that would be going too far. I also think that BJJ being the ultimate key to success in MMA would also be going too far. Elite Judoka or Samboist can do just as well in mma.
As for gloves, it isn’t only the gloves, it is the taping. Tape well and put on gloves and you will be able to use your full power.

121

[quote]otoko wrote:
Was this thread about BJJ being dead?

I think that would be going too far. I also think that BJJ being the ultimate key to success in MMA would also be going too far. Elite Judoka or Samboist can do just as well in mma.
As for gloves, it isn’t only the gloves, it is the taping. Tape well and put on gloves and you will be able to use your full power. [/quote]

I agree it’s the taping more than the gloves themselves that gives a striker protection. Why do I see more knockouts in MMA than in boxing? Is it the padding or that I don’t use Pay-Per-View to see boxing?

BTW finding a jiu-jitsu club that rolls when I can be there is a pain in the ***. Evening shifts argh!