UFC/MMA is a business and wouldn’t survive w/out a fan base. The rules have been changed to encourage stand-up fighting and stiking. It’s just more fun to watch. Straight NHB fighting (no time limits, few restrictions) between highly skilled opponents is very boring to watch. They nearly always tighly tied up in ground matches with little or no perceptible action for long periods. Very boring. If the fights had stayed like they were for the first few UFCs the sport would certainly have died.
[quote]Res Judicata wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Res Judicata wrote:
Against multiples the name of the game is stay on your feet and move, don’t get surrounded – line your attackers up if you can. And look for a way OUT.
Yes…all you have to do is line them up …the way Chuch Norris does. Then all you have to do is side kick them into oblivion.
I love the make believe world of martial arts.
Do you think that some of these “deadly” Black Belt instructors would make any money if they ever told their gullible students the truth?
Ha I love… 
What I mean is (try) to move around so that you don’t get surrounded and gang-tackled, etc. You “line them up” by moving past/between/around them if you can. Say, if there are two to your right-front and one to your left-front, move left and give the left guy a good shove or punch and try to get to his right side or behind him. No, no Chuck Norris nonsense. The main purpose is to try to make space to get out. Anyone deliberately trying to fight 3 guys is nuts, (although I’ve known crazy people who have).
At the least, it’s a better plan than “pull guard” or shoot the double-leg. Getting surrounded = certain ass kicking. Most people don’t have one hit knockout power – I certainly don’t – and I’d rather run away that slug it out. [/quote]
The point of training ground fighting is to mitigate bad situations. Ideally, what you are saying will work. But it probably wont, and your opponents will indeed clinch and do takedowns in the street and you will find yourself in a grappling situation. Is your premise that if you go to the ground despite your best intentions you should just admit defeat and take a gang beating? Or should you know how to grapple, and escape/protect yourself from the ground? Which sounds better?
Note: “just stand up” doesn’t actually work.
-Fireplug
[quote]fireplug52 wrote:
Res Judicata wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Res Judicata wrote:
Against multiples the name of the game is stay on your feet and move, don’t get surrounded – line your attackers up if you can. And look for a way OUT.
Yes…all you have to do is line them up …the way Chuch Norris does. Then all you have to do is side kick them into oblivion.
I love the make believe world of martial arts.
Do you think that some of these “deadly” Black Belt instructors would make any money if they ever told their gullible students the truth?
Ha I love…
What I mean is (try) to move around so that you don’t get surrounded and gang-tackled, etc. You “line them up” by moving past/between/around them if you can. Say, if there are two to your right-front and one to your left-front, move left and give the left guy a good shove or punch and try to get to his right side or behind him. No, no Chuck Norris nonsense. The main purpose is to try to make space to get out. Anyone deliberately trying to fight 3 guys is nuts, (although I’ve known crazy people who have).
At the least, it’s a better plan than “pull guard” or shoot the double-leg. Getting surrounded = certain ass kicking. Most people don’t have one hit knockout power – I certainly don’t – and I’d rather run away that slug it out.
The point of training ground fighting is to mitigate bad situations. Ideally, what you are saying will work. But it probably wont, and your opponents will indeed clinch and do takedowns in the street and you will find yourself in a grappling situation. Is your premise that if you go to the ground despite your best intentions you should just admit defeat and take a gang beating? Or should you know how to grapple, and escape/protect yourself from the ground? Which sounds better?
Note: “just stand up” doesn’t actually work.
-Fireplug[/quote]
I agree. Strategy goes out the door as soon as things start going down. Ground fighting is what we call “plan B.” I take BJJ. It’s great for what it’s designed for.
But have you ever tried ground grappling 2 on 1? I have. It sucks. Deliberately going to the ground with more than one person is suicidal. In real life you want to avoid the clinch if you can (big if).
Even there, Judo-style throws that give you the option of staying standing are better than the wrestling-types or sacrifices that most BJJ’ers favor. And on the ground you really want to be in side mount, knee on belly, or north south, so you can get up and away. Guard wont do you much good.
I take taiji quan and attended a BJJ class. I have to say I was unimpressed, I had to be really cooperative for people to apply any sort of lock or choke, any time I resisted I got out. I was comfortable on the ground even though I have never trained to be there. Then again the instructor was a BLUE belt. Maybe I got shorted.
[quote]Nicholas F wrote:
One word. GLOVES. Gloves gloves gloves gloves gloves. Gloves have changed the sport of fighting almost as much as bjj changed the sport of fighting in itself. Bottom line - take the gloves away and it would change EVERYTHING. It would be a groundfest DOMINATED by the brazilians. I could see someone like Ryron Gracie dominating the scene, and BJ Penn and Eddie Bravo dominating the lower weight classes. In fact, without gloves, there wouldn’t even need to be various weight classes because size would be less of an issue. I would say an over and under 200 pound class would be sufficient.
Unless you train MMA and have used gloves, you probably won’t fully understand what Im talking about. Gloves are a HUGE advantage for the striker. [/quote]
gloves do protect the knuckles, but they make it harder to knock someone out by decelerating the force of a punch.
so i really don’t see how you can say that the mandatory addition of gloves makes the punchers so much more effective. if anything, i would say wrist wraps are more beneficial for the strikers, as they protect the wrist as well as the knuckles (and have been allowed since UFC I), but it’s not so much padding to take away from the punching power.
am i missing something here? it seems to me that the gloves actually take away from the stand-up fighters.
[quote]rawda wrote:
Nicholas F wrote:
One word. GLOVES. Gloves gloves gloves gloves gloves. Gloves have changed the sport of fighting almost as much as bjj changed the sport of fighting in itself. Bottom line - take the gloves away and it would change EVERYTHING. It would be a groundfest DOMINATED by the brazilians. I could see someone like Ryron Gracie dominating the scene, and BJ Penn and Eddie Bravo dominating the lower weight classes. In fact, without gloves, there wouldn’t even need to be various weight classes because size would be less of an issue. I would say an over and under 200 pound class would be sufficient.
Unless you train MMA and have used gloves, you probably won’t fully understand what Im talking about. Gloves are a HUGE advantage for the striker.
gloves do protect the knuckles, but they make it harder to knock someone out by decelerating the force of a punch.
so i really don’t see how you can say that the mandatory addition of gloves makes the punchers so much more effective. if anything, i would say wrist wraps are more beneficial for the strikers, as they protect the wrist as well as the knuckles (and have been allowed since UFC I), but it’s not so much padding to take away from the punching power.
am i missing something here? it seems to me that the gloves actually take away from the stand-up fighters.
[/quote]
No disrespect but I’m absolutely perplexed by the above; “gloves decelerating the force of the punch”. WTF? HUH? Do many of you that post on these threads actually fight? Or just talk about fighting? I know some do but that statement was just bizarre. The force of a punch is in absolutely no fashion lessened by a glove. Gloves protect the hands - period. The previous poster was absolutely correct in his analysis - if you don’t believe him, go get in a fight and start “ground and pound” on someone’s head. I’ll diagnose the fractured hands for you without an x-ray. And what makes that statement even more bewildering is that we’re talking MMA style gloves, not even boxing gloves! Not that even that makes much of a difference. I’m just shaking my head here.
Would you like to expound on this theory of yours that gloves take the force off a punch?
Totally right. A taped hand under a light glove, like an mma glove, is just as bad as a bare knukle shot IMHO. I think a taped hand has MORE force even under the glove than bare knuckle for several reasons. And the hand can keep hitting as it is in a cast essentially, if wrapped good.
Another thing about BJJ in MMA is in UFC. When guy is on me in my guard and I have an overhook on him and say I’m trying to get a triangle or set up some sub. In reality, when someone is in my guard one of the biggest threats is to get an overhook, make some space and kick their head leg press style. this is a brutal shot and it combined with subs causes some serious worry and threat for the other guy. In UFC I am not allowed to do this unless the opponent is standing, kind of difficult at that point. Then all I may get are those knee shots and my opponent is in a much better position to hurt me as well. I now have to get up. that up kick to a downed opponent is a huge weapon for bjj. But is forbidden.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
rawda wrote:
Nicholas F wrote:
One word. GLOVES. Gloves gloves gloves gloves gloves. Gloves have changed the sport of fighting almost as much as bjj changed the sport of fighting in itself. Bottom line - take the gloves away and it would change EVERYTHING. It would be a groundfest DOMINATED by the brazilians. I could see someone like Ryron Gracie dominating the scene, and BJ Penn and Eddie Bravo dominating the lower weight classes. In fact, without gloves, there wouldn’t even need to be various weight classes because size would be less of an issue. I would say an over and under 200 pound class would be sufficient.
Unless you train MMA and have used gloves, you probably won’t fully understand what Im talking about. Gloves are a HUGE advantage for the striker.
gloves do protect the knuckles, but they make it harder to knock someone out by decelerating the force of a punch.
so i really don’t see how you can say that the mandatory addition of gloves makes the punchers so much more effective. if anything, i would say wrist wraps are more beneficial for the strikers, as they protect the wrist as well as the knuckles (and have been allowed since UFC I), but it’s not so much padding to take away from the punching power.
am i missing something here? it seems to me that the gloves actually take away from the stand-up fighters.
No disrespect but I’m absolutely perplexed by the above; “gloves decelerating the force of the punch”. WTF? HUH? Do many of you that post on these threads actually fight? Or just talk about fighting? I know some do but that statement was just bizarre. The force of a punch is in absolutely no fashion lessened by a glove. Gloves protect the hands - period. The previous poster was absolutely correct in his analysis - if you don’t believe him, go get in a fight and start “ground and pound” on someone’s head. I’ll diagnose the fractured hands for you without an x-ray. And what makes that statement even more bewildering is that we’re talking MMA style gloves, not even boxing gloves! Not that even that makes much of a difference. I’m just shaking my head here.
Would you like to expound on this theory of yours that gloves take the force off a punch?[/quote]
Is it possible that BJJ training being a SPP may work alot like a GPP too?
I just started BJJ classes yesterday and after a couple of minutes of sparring I totally want to die.
It seems like sparring alot with mostly grappling will keep you going in a fight way better than running as it’s about using all your strenght and technique in a somewhat isometric way…
[quote]Hekk wrote:
Is it possible that BJJ training being a SPP may work alot like a GPP too?
I just started BJJ classes yesterday and after a couple of minutes of sparring I totally want to die.
It seems like sparring alot with mostly grappling will keep you going in a fight way better than running as it’s about using all your strenght and technique in a somewhat isometric way…[/quote]
Any kind of sparring, be it on the mat or boxing is tremendously demanding of your cardio system - if you’re active. On the mat, there are times you can conserve and catch your breath. But generally, any kind of sparring is pretty demanding cardio wise.
Hekk, you definitely need to get used to rolling before you can go for more than a couple minutes - the energy pathways used are really unlike anything else and most people haven’t trained them at all.
The other thing to keep in mind is that as BodyGuard noted, there’s actually a lot of opportunities to catch your breath while grappling. As you learn more, you’ll rely on technique rather than strength and be much more efficient in your movements and relaxed - both will keep you going longer.
Most tournament bouts are timed because with even some basic knowledge and a decent cardio system, it’s not impossible to go for a couple 10 minute rounds and still have some gas left.
Re: Gloves, keep in mind most MMA gloves are 4 oz. Yeah, they’re cut short (no fingers and open palm), but there’s not a lot padding in there, plus, to keep the palm open for grappling, you can’t wrap the same way you would with boxing gloves. Thus, you still see a lot of broken hands in competition (Franklin v. Loiseau is a good example).
spreading the impulse of a punch over a longer time lessens the force of a punch. there’s no way to argue against that; unless you can argue successfully against basic newtonian physics.
i understand that the gloves are very small, but the fact remains that the gloves do slow down the time of impulse. i already acknowledged that they do provide a degree of protection for the puncher, but it is a compromise. the puncher can punch more without breaking knuckles, but he punches with less force. in addition, compared to wrist wraps, gloves provide relatively very little protection to the other bones and soft tissue of the hands and wrist.
i have been in plenty of fights, and the KO’s come a lot easier and sooner in a bar than they do in the ring. also, check out how long bare-knuckle fights last compared to fights with gloves.
to nicholas f:
i forgot to respond to the contention that no gloves would mean there would be no need for so many weight classes. first of all, could you explain this? there’s no argument to back it up, so one would be appreciated. secondly, the weight classes were created because of politics (which also incidentally was the reason why gloves became required), not because of some size factor.
[quote]rawda wrote:
spreading the impulse of a punch over a longer time lessens the force of a punch. there’s no way to argue against that; unless you can argue successfully against basic newtonian physics.
i understand that the gloves are very small, but the fact remains that the gloves do slow down the time of impulse. i already acknowledged that they do provide a degree of protection for the puncher, but it is a compromise. the puncher can punch more without breaking knuckles, but he punches with less force. in addition, compared to wrist wraps, gloves provide relatively very little protection to the other bones and soft tissue of the hands and wrist.
[/quote]
Sigh. I’ll bite.
How much less force is exerted as a result of the glove? How many punches that would have been bareknuckle KOs merely rock the opponent or do no damage at all as a result of wearing gloves?
If you don’t have answers for those (and why not, it’s simple Newtonian physics and basic scientific observation?), let’ make it: are the gloves a significant factor?
[quote]i have been in plenty of fights, and the KO’s come a lot easier and sooner in a bar than they do in the ring. also, check out how long bare-knuckle fights last compared to fights with gloves.
[/quote]
Why do you think that is? Does the potential disparity in skill and defensive capability between professional MMA fighters and barroom brawlers have anything to do with it?
Also, how much longer does a bareknuckle fight last than a gloved fight? Could part of the reason be that two highly skilled combat athletes who have a variety of options for victory (KO, TKO, submission, decision) can afford to take their time to play with the pacing of a fight when they don’t have to worry about things like cops showing up, friends of their enemy jumping in, etc. and have time to bait thier opponent (whom they spend X months preparing specifically for) into making a mistake?
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
I see that many people live in the mythworld of “bjj would work if there were no rules”… ok, how hard is it to gouge the eye of a guy trying to set you in a triangle? how hard is it to fish hook the same guy? elbow-strike the one armbarring you… The “no rules” you are talking about was “gracie rules” that favored the grappler… 
[/quote]
believe it or not, eye gouging and fishhooking while youre in a triangle is harder than you may think. when youre triangled, they have control of one of your arms, and it doesnt have much room to move around freely. then they have two arms to fight off your other one. not to mention youre getting (duh) frickin choked during this whole process.
as for your other example, i can guarantee you that if you take your attention off of your arm thats being armbarred to throw elbows (which are going to be impaired and awkward anyway as long as your other arm is being straightened out), that arm will be broken before you know it. most would glady eat one awkward elbow in exchange for breaking yours.
im not implying anything, but have you ever been in a triangle or armbar? serious question, i dont mean anything by it.
[quote]Hekk wrote:
Is it possible that BJJ training being a SPP may work alot like a GPP too?
I just started BJJ classes yesterday and after a couple of minutes of sparring I totally want to die.
It seems like sparring alot with mostly grappling will keep you going in a fight way better than running as it’s about using all your strenght and technique in a somewhat isometric way…[/quote]
ive never found running to transfer well to grappling. youre right, nothing gets you in grappling shape like rolling. our gym usually sets it up that theres one person on the mat, and he rolls with everyone in the gym (usually 4 or 5 guys) for 3 minutes one after another, so you always get a fresh partner while youre worn down. works great.
other than that, ive found burpees, sandbag and sledgehammer work to transfer well to grappling, but again, nothing does it like rolling.
do you guys practice your eye gouges by poking each other in the a**hole, because i dont know of any training partner that would let you poke him in the eyes all day?
[quote]wyrd1 wrote:
I take taiji quan and attended a BJJ class. I have to say I was unimpressed, I had to be really cooperative for people to apply any sort of lock or choke, any time I resisted I got out. I was comfortable on the ground even though I have never trained to be there. Then again the instructor was a BLUE belt. Maybe I got shorted.[/quote]
the reason BJJ is so effective is becuase of the aliveness of the training, they actually put their skills to use against resistance, not just in compliant drills. Also if you want to be successful in self defense you have to put your skills to use against resisting oppenents and not just claim that your techniques are too deadly. Anyone can eye gouge or do a groin kick, tactics like pulling guard are not the most effective for the street, and IMO do Judo if you want to really train for the street, that way you dont have to go to the ground a throw can end the fight.
Hey!
As for my experience, I have both competed in Submission Wrestling, shootfighting, kickboxing and in my dumb and young days: tkd… in addition to this, I have worked the door for 5-6 years now. That said, I’m only 23 years old, and have a lot to learn. My point is that pulling guard on the street is stupid. In my Krav Maga training we often try to fight from the guard/sidemount, and often find that simple things like breaking a finger, gouging an eye and so on is quite easy if you are comfortable with the basics on the ground AND are ruthless enough to use such techniques. That said, the only fights I have been in outside work/martial arts have been finished by something as easy as lowkicks and knees. A well placed and hard low kick is often enough to stop an attacker. Just as a well placed and hard knee is… but that is my experience.
All I know is that the places i work are filled with broken glass on the floor… I wouldn’t pull guard on that for all the money in the world…
[quote]ZachDelDesert wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
I see that many people live in the mythworld of “bjj would work if there were no rules”… ok, how hard is it to gouge the eye of a guy trying to set you in a triangle? how hard is it to fish hook the same guy? elbow-strike the one armbarring you… The “no rules” you are talking about was “gracie rules” that favored the grappler…
believe it or not, eye gouging and fishhooking while youre in a triangle is harder than you may think. when youre triangled, they have control of one of your arms, and it doesnt have much room to move around freely. then they have two arms to fight off your other one. not to mention youre getting (duh) frickin choked during this whole process.
as for your other example, i can guarantee you that if you take your attention off of your arm thats being armbarred to throw elbows (which are going to be impaired and awkward anyway as long as your other arm is being straightened out), that arm will be broken before you know it. most would glady eat one awkward elbow in exchange for breaking yours.
im not implying anything, but have you ever been in a triangle or armbar? serious question, i dont mean anything by it.
[/quote]
[quote]sactown1 wrote:
the reason BJJ is so effective is becuase of the aliveness of the training, they actually put their skills to use against resistance, not just in compliant drills. Also if you want to be successful in self defense you have to put your skills to use against resisting oppenents and not just claim that your techniques are too deadly. Anyone can eye gouge or do a groin kick, tactics like pulling guard are not the most effective for the street, and IMO do Judo if you want to really train for the street, that way you dont have to go to the ground a throw can end the fight.
[/quote]
So I wasn’t being a jerk by resisting half the time while rolling? Should I have resisted against the teacher? As soon as I realized I could stop a submission hold or slip from the guard/mount I let the teacher pretty much do what he wanted, I was there to see if the art would be useful for me to learn not to see how bad@** I was, nor to make the teacher look bad. Do you think I should go back and be more resistant or just find different school (I can’t find a judo club).
[quote]wyrd1 wrote:
sactown1 wrote:
the reason BJJ is so effective is becuase of the aliveness of the training, they actually put their skills to use against resistance, not just in compliant drills. Also if you want to be successful in self defense you have to put your skills to use against resisting oppenents and not just claim that your techniques are too deadly. Anyone can eye gouge or do a groin kick, tactics like pulling guard are not the most effective for the street, and IMO do Judo if you want to really train for the street, that way you dont have to go to the ground a throw can end the fight.
So I wasn’t being a jerk by resisting half the time while rolling? Should I have resisted against the teacher? As soon as I realized I could stop a submission hold or slip from the guard/mount I let the teacher pretty much do what he wanted, I was there to see if the art would be useful for me to learn not to see how bad@** I was, nor to make the teacher look bad. Do you think I should go back and be more resistant or just find different school (I can’t find a judo club).[/quote]
If you guys were learning a technique you shouldnt be fully resisting, on the other hand if you guys are rolling or sparring then you should be resisting because that is the point of rolling to test out your techniques.
many people will agree that the best escape from an armbar (or other submissions) is a good hit to the face, and now that fighters know more ground than they did, bjj isnt the fight ender like it once was