BJJ in MMA

[ZEB]

[quote]virid wrote:
When attempting to compare fighting styles through contests like UFC or Pride, no one ever discusses the fact that these are all one-on-one fights. If you’re wondering about the real world application of fighting skills you would have to consider that in a bar fight, mugging, etc., there is a strong possibility that you would be squaring-off against multiple opponents.

Not to take away from UFC or Pride, they’re both great, but it’s simply not a definitive test of fighting style superiority. Picture a BJJ fighter trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.[/quote]

Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

[ZEB]

[quote]Res Judicata wrote:
The early UFC’s were basically a set-up by Rorion Gracie as part of a very clever marketing campaign. They were very selective about who they let into the tournament, and while there were a few good grapplers there were basically no submission grapplers.[/quote]

I would partially agree.

I think the first UFC was simply a showcase for Royce Gracie to display his skills against strikers.

However, after the torunament moved along they did include some better submission grappling competition.

For example:

Remco Pardoel, UFC 2
(Jiu-Jitsu/Judo)

Christophe Leininger, UFC 3
(Judo)

And as they moved along more and better submission grapplers of all styles began to enter.

Of course Royce left the scene just before that point.

[virid]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

[/quote]

Plenty martial art styles train for fighting multiple opponents. Fighting multiple opponents is a requirement for getting black-belts in many systems.

I understand your point that if you have multiple highly-trained opponents you’re mostly likely screwed, but my point is simply that BJJ fails to provide any techniques to deal with multiple fighters. I think that’s just another gap in the BJJ system.

[Scrappy]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.
[/quote]
thx Zeb…
Really…the whole multiple attacker thing has to go…That argument kills me. Anyway,

I think people start to take the argument away from system and go argue about athlete or teacher. BJJ is a great system. The way it originated. There are now 3 or even 4 BJJ practices, GI, No-Gi grapple, MMA, Street. Your goals determine what you should absorb, what teacher is best and what type of athlete you need to develop into to excel at that thing.

But the main concept is simple, use position and leverage against a guy who would otherwise kick your ass if you stood toe to toe or just tried to pin him and use WHATEVER works. Chokes work. What puts BJJ ahead of other systems for me is the details they use to really get the move on a really resisting guy and the evolution they have in response to common resistence, problems and counters.

They don’t just have you go nuts or teach about pain and punishment and aggression, they teach intelligent ways to handle a better athlete and defend yourself. It only goes so far, if I’m in terrible shape and another guy is a great athlete who knows what I’m trying to do, then that’s the athlete succeeding or failing. Not the system.

Apply the system and you will win. If you can’t apply it due to a lack of conditioning, flexibility, the required strength, wrong technique, then that’s your area to work on. Why can’t Nog apply the system on Fedor. Fedor has terrific attributes and a sound knowledge of grappling/boxing. It happens.

[TheBodyGuard]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
virid wrote:
When attempting to compare fighting styles through contests like UFC or Pride, no one ever discusses the fact that these are all one-on-one fights. If you’re wondering about the real world application of fighting skills you would have to consider that in a bar fight, mugging, etc., there is a strong possibility that you would be squaring-off against multiple opponents.

Not to take away from UFC or Pride, they’re both great, but it’s simply not a definitive test of fighting style superiority. Picture a BJJ fighter trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

[/quote]

I agree generally with your insights, in spite of some minor disagreements. I have to take somewhat exception to this post and please don’t take this as “I’m a bad ass” kinda thing - its not, it is what it is. I fought 5 and “won”. I didn’t knock out any of them. While we may be arguing semantics, I think what matters most in fighting multiple attackers (yes, I said “fighting” - not “defending”…you cannot “defend” in that situation except to escape and evade)is the ability to “disable” and opponent however temporary (or permanent lol).

The tally when I was done was one with a broken wrist, one knocked dizzy and down (but not out) from a strike to the temple, one leg kick that put one guy down and the other two ran. Yes, I chased them. My result? Scratches and bruises and probably a perforated eardrum (never diagnosed but I could for months feel/hear air coming thru my inner ear when I breathed a certain way). I also lost a $1000 necklace and tore a pretty expensive sweater.

And I have no one to blame but myself - I started it. Some little “wigger” wannabe was running his mouth and I just couldn’t control myself LOL. But I digress - its the ability to disable, not necessarily knock out. At 6.1 and 275 PL, I have knockout power, but a knockout blow is usually a well placed one and when you’re fighting more than one guy, your chances at being real accurate go down considerably.

Anyway, I wouldn’t recommend it unless you had no choice - escape and evade and come back later with your friends or pick them off one by one later I could have easily been stabbed or worse. You WILL get hit when you’re fighting multiple attackers - most here know enough that it’s not like the movies LOL. You won’t be arm locking and swinging some guy into another guy a la Seagal LOL…you’ll be getting hit and (hopefully) doing some hitting of your own.

[TheBodyGuard]

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

thx Zeb…
Really…the whole multiple attacker thing has to go…That argument kills me. Anyway,

I think people start to take the argument away from system and go argue about athlete or teacher. BJJ is a great system. The way it originated. There are now 3 or even 4 BJJ practices, GI, No-Gi grapple, MMA, Street. Your goals determine what you should absorb, what teacher is best and what type of athlete you need to develop into to excel at that thing.

But the main concept is simple, use position and leverage against a guy who would otherwise kick your ass if you stood toe to toe or just tried to pin him and use WHATEVER works. Chokes work. What puts BJJ ahead of other systems for me is the details they use to really get the move on a really resisting guy and the evolution they have in response to common resistence, problems and counters.

They don’t just have you go nuts or teach about pain and punishment and aggression, they teach intelligent ways to handle a better athlete and defend yourself. It only goes so far, if I’m in terrible shape and another guy is a great athlete who knows what I’m trying to do, then that’s the athlete succeeding or failing. Not the system.

Apply the system and you will win. If you can’t apply it due to a lack of conditioning, flexibility, the required strength, wrong technique, then that’s your area to work on. Why can’t Nog apply the system on Fedor. Fedor has terrific attributes and a sound knowledge of grappling/boxing. It happens.[/quote]

Scrappy; got your PM but my replies don’t seem to work (not ignoring you); I’ll try again and we can chat. You’re local to me - I’m right across the river in S. Jersey 5 minutes from Commodore Barry Bridge…maybe we can train together some time.

Steve

[Adamsson]

The thing is… do you really want to get down on the ground in a bar fight? NO! Do you want to start grappling someone that may bite, headbut, eye-gouge you…? NO! This isn’t hard folks…

[Res_Judicata]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Res Judicata wrote:
The early UFC’s were basically a set-up by Rorion Gracie as part of a very clever marketing campaign. They were very selective about who they let into the tournament, and while there were a few good grapplers there were basically no submission grapplers.

I would partially agree.

I think the first UFC was simply a showcase for Royce Gracie to display his skills against strikers.

However, after the torunament moved along they did include some better submission grappling competition.

For example:

Remco Pardoel, UFC 2
(Jiu-Jitsu/Judo)

Christophe Leininger, UFC 3
(Judo)

And as they moved along more and better submission grapplers of all styles began to enter.

Of course Royce left the scene just before that point.
[/quote]

Yeah. And those guys were not anywhere near the top of the Judo talent pool. Royce was really protected in those early tournaments, not only in the match ups but in who was permitted to enter (perhaps because, well, his brother was a co-promoter). You didn’t see anyone from Gene LeBell’s school, even though (or because) they were friendly with the Gracies.

Lots of shady business went on in those early UFCs. For example, there’s a story that Rorion pulled Severn from the superfight and put him in the pool in UFC 5 because Rorion learned that Severn had been training with a good judo coach.

[Res_Judicata]

[quote]virid wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

Plenty martial art styles train for fighting multiple opponents. Fighting multiple opponents is a requirement for getting black-belts in many systems.

I understand your point that if you have multiple highly-trained opponents you’re mostly likely screwed, but my point is simply that BJJ fails to provide any techniques to deal with multiple fighters. I think that’s just another gap in the BJJ system.[/quote]

I agree. I train in BJJ because I would like to be able to handle myself if I end up on the ground. But I don’t want to go to the ground ever, and I sure don’t want to end up on my back.

BJJ is not a complete martial art by any stretch of the imagination. BJJ vs. a knife? Uh, I’ll pass. BJJ works very well for what its designed for – one on one, smooth, relatively soft surface, no interference, no weapons. I think it also underestimates the power of a good throw on a hard surface.

Against multiples the name of the game is stay on your feet and move, don’t get surrounded – line your attackers up if you can. And look for a way OUT.

[ScrambyEggs]

Being a one dimensional fighter is fine against people who have no idea what they are doing. Anyone can be submitted, anyone can be ko’ed, anyone can be beaten on any given day.

The reason why BJJ ruled the MMA world for so long was because a majority of traditional martial arts have no ground fighting implemented at all. I took TKD for 3 years and did well in most fights as long as I was on my feet. Then someone got me with a leg shot and ? “what the hell do I do now!?” If you can completely take someone out of their element in any fighting situation you have an enormous advantage. Why the Gracies did so well in early UFC.

Now after having done some submission grappling I see the other side. If you go to any tournament or JJ class you will notice there is something big missing. STRIKING! Many get so used to using both hands to move their opponents that they forget to protect themselves. It is much harder to punch on the ground. Elbows and knees are far more practical. However, elbows are banned in Pride and knees from the ground I think are banned in UFC.

Also, the cage is a tremendous boon for grapplers and GnP fighters because they can use it to trap opponents. The rules helped JJ to prevail for a long time. Now, as long as you can defend against submissions and strike, you can do well in mma. My thoughts…

[ScrambyEggs]

Also, for the BJJ/Sambo confusion.

Both normally wear gi’s

Both are 90+% submission work

BJJ is (mostly) upper body submission like chokes and arm locks

Sambo emphasizes (mostly) leg locks

[facko]

lol…how doesnt BJJ rule in mma? It is basically required to know in order to be successful in MMA. It rules mma because its the standard. The thing is everyone trains at it so hard…fighters have like equal ground skills.

[Cluster]

[quote]facko wrote:
lol…how doesnt BJJ rule in mma? It is basically required to know in order to be successful in MMA. It rules mma because its the standard. The thing is everyone trains at it so hard…fighters have like equal ground skills.[/quote]

Finally. I hope everyone reads this and understands it.

Here’s something interesting. Watch Hughes v. Gracie again. It’s classic BJJ: takedown to guardpass/sidemount, rearmount (well, rear control) to finishing from the back.

Hughes’ BJJ was actually superior to Royce’s in that fight!

Ok, that’s not technically true, but at the least, you need to be familiar with it to defend against it.

[ZEB]

[quote]virid wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

Plenty martial art styles train for fighting multiple opponents. Fighting multiple opponents is a requirement for getting black-belts in many systems.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware that they “train” for such an event. But what does that really mean?

Does it mean that if they get jumped by three street toughs that they are going to be able to subdue them like in a Kung-Fu movie?

NOT HARDLY!

But they do delude themselves with this type of training…And that’s worth something.

[ZEB]

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
ZEB wrote:
virid wrote:
When attempting to compare fighting styles through contests like UFC or Pride, no one ever discusses the fact that these are all one-on-one fights. If you’re wondering about the real world application of fighting skills you would have to consider that in a bar fight, mugging, etc., there is a strong possibility that you would be squaring-off against multiple opponents.

Not to take away from UFC or Pride, they’re both great, but it’s simply not a definitive test of fighting style superiority. Picture a BJJ fighter trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

Um…picture anyone trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.

The only thing that will help you under these conditions (other than a weapon of course) is something called knock out power. You tag someone once and they don’t get up.

There are people out there who have this kind of punching power. But most people regardless of their martial art are going to lose in a 2 or 3 on 1 situation.

I agree generally with your insights, in spite of some minor disagreements. I have to take somewhat exception to this post and please don’t take this as “I’m a bad ass” kinda thing - its not, it is what it is. I fought 5 and “won”. I didn’t knock out any of them. While we may be arguing semantics, I think what matters most in fighting multiple attackers (yes, I said “fighting” - not “defending”…you cannot “defend” in that situation except to escape and evade)is the ability to “disable” and opponent however temporary (or permanent lol).

The tally when I was done was one with a broken wrist, one knocked dizzy and down (but not out) from a strike to the temple, one leg kick that put one guy down and the other two ran. Yes, I chased them. My result? Scratches and bruises and probably a perforated eardrum (never diagnosed but I could for months feel/hear air coming thru my inner ear when I breathed a certain way). I also lost a $1000 necklace and tore a pretty expensive sweater.

And I have no one to blame but myself - I started it. Some little “wigger” wannabe was running his mouth and I just couldn’t control myself LOL. But I digress - its the ability to disable, not necessarily knock out. At 6.1 and 275 PL, I have knockout power, but a knockout blow is usually a well placed one and when you’re fighting more than one guy, your chances at being real accurate go down considerably.

Anyway, I wouldn’t recommend it unless you had no choice - escape and evade and come back later with your friends or pick them off one by one later I could have easily been stabbed or worse. You WILL get hit when you’re fighting multiple attackers - most here know enough that it’s not like the movies LOL. You won’t be arm locking and swinging some guy into another guy a la Seagal LOL…you’ll be getting hit and (hopefully) doing some hitting of your own.

[/quote]

I don’t disagree with you.

As I said there are people out there who can do exactly what you claim to have done.

With each (one or two) punch or kick delivered you harmed your opponents. And that is what you have to be able to do in order to win against multiple attackers.

You are 6’ 1" 275lbs. and you have been training for 20 years.

I would have to assume that you are able to do as you say.

My argument is that the typical martial artist who is
“trained” to fight multiple attackers would get his butt handed to him.

You are in a very small minority my friend.

[Body_Hammer]

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
and fish hooking and a few other things… The groin was free-for-all, but that changed after a grappler lost on groin-strikes… The UFC was a gracie product to forward Gracie interests… How is this hard to understand? [/quote]

Which grappler? What other things?

I know that the Gracies (especially Rorion) were a driving force in creating the original UFC, and you could probably quite legitimately argue that this was to forward their interests - the UFC helped expose their art to the world and no doubt was a big benefit to them financially. But you seem to be calling an almost complete lack of ‘rules’ to somehow be skewing the contest in favour of grapplers, and specifically those who practice BJJ. Doesn’t this seem just a little flawed to you?

I understand that the UFC of today has a much greater amount of rules, and that’s pretty reasonable - they have an interest in making the bouts more crowd pleasing, as well as trying to reduce the number of injuries the combatants receive. Fair enough - they’re a commercial entity and have commercial interests to protect. But that also means, as other posters have stated, that fighters who favour striking have a distinct advantage compared to the old days, with the gloves and with the refs standing up fighters when there is a lack of action on the ground.

To be fair, I agree with your post when you say that ‘not all grappling is BJJ’ - techniques like the straight armbar and rear naked choke have been around for a long time, and no one art can really claim ownership of them. However, I think that BJJ still plays a huge part in the modern MMA scene - you’ve gotta admit a huge number of fighters practice it to some extent, even predominantly standup fighters. It’s just that fighters these days are a lot more well rounded, and they tend to crosstrain a lot more in other disciplines as well.

[ZEB]

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The thing is… do you really want to get down on the ground in a bar fight? NO! Do you want to start grappling someone that may bite, headbut, eye-gouge you…? NO! This isn’t hard folks…[/quote]

Gee…what if you don’t have a choice?

Do you think because someone studies a striking art they then automatically have a choice whether or not the attacker will tackle them to the ground?

[ZEB]

[quote]Res Judicata wrote:

Against multiples the name of the game is stay on your feet and move, don’t get surrounded – line your attackers up if you can. And look for a way OUT. [/quote]

Yes…all you have to do is line them up …the way Chuch Norris does. Then all you have to do is side kick them into oblivion.

I love the make believe world of martial arts.

Do you think that some of these “deadly” Black Belt instructors would make any money if they ever told their gullible students the truth?

Ha I love…

[ZEB]

[quote]Cluster wrote:
facko wrote:
lol…how doesnt BJJ rule in mma? It is basically required to know in order to be successful in MMA. It rules mma because its the standard. The thing is everyone trains at it so hard…fighters have like equal ground skills.

Finally. I hope everyone reads this and understands it.

Here’s something interesting. Watch Hughes v. Gracie again. It’s classic BJJ: takedown to guardpass/sidemount, rearmount (well, rear control) to finishing from the back.

Hughes’ BJJ was actually superior to Royce’s in that fight!

Ok, that’s not technically true, but at the least, you need to be familiar with it to defend against it.[/quote]

You are 100% correct.

[Res_Judicata]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Res Judicata wrote:

Against multiples the name of the game is stay on your feet and move, don’t get surrounded – line your attackers up if you can. And look for a way OUT.

Yes…all you have to do is line them up …the way Chuch Norris does. Then all you have to do is side kick them into oblivion.

I love the make believe world of martial arts.

Do you think that some of these “deadly” Black Belt instructors would make any money if they ever told their gullible students the truth?

Ha I love… :)[/quote]

What I mean is (try) to move around so that you don’t get surrounded and gang-tackled, etc. You “line them up” by moving past/between/around them if you can. Say, if there are two to your right-front and one to your left-front, move left and give the left guy a good shove or punch and try to get to his right side or behind him. No, no Chuck Norris nonsense. The main purpose is to try to make space to get out. Anyone deliberately trying to fight 3 guys is nuts, (although I’ve known crazy people who have).

At the least, it’s a better plan than “pull guard” or shoot the double-leg. Getting surrounded = certain ass kicking. Most people don’t have one hit knockout power – I certainly don’t – and I’d rather run away that slug it out.