[quote]krayon wrote:
Isn’t bjj derived from Judo? I heard it orginated from a style (dojo) that specialized in ground fighting. [/quote]
From what I know, the Gracies were taught Jiu Jitsu by a Japanese fighter. Then Helio developed the the style to BJJ.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
I see that many people live in the mythworld of “bjj would work if there were no rules”… ok, how hard is it to gouge the eye of a guy trying to set you in a triangle? how hard is it to fish hook the same guy? elbow-strike the one armbarring you… The “no rules” you are talking about was “gracie rules” that favored the grappler… 
[/quote]
Funny you should say that, because way back in the day of UFC, the only things banned were biting and eye gouging…
and fish hooking and a few other things… 
The groin was free-for-all, but that changed after a grappler lost on groin-strikes… The UFC was a gracie product to forward Gracie interests… How is this hard to understand?
[quote]muller__ wrote:
krayon wrote:
Isn’t bjj derived from Judo? I heard it orginated from a style (dojo) that specialized in ground fighting.
From what I know, the Gracies were taught Jiu Jitsu by a Japanese fighter. Then Helio developed the the style to BJJ.[/quote]
Actually, Maeda taught the Gracies Kosen Judo - a pre-Kodokan version of judo with an emphasis on ground fighting.
Sadly, the judo trend that started in the 60ies (reduction of ne-waza groundfighting) continues even faster today.
Loppar
[quote]F13 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Rulk Gracie wrote:
Okay…well that’s the differnece between Jiu-Jitsu and Sambo.
Dude, are you serious? Have you watched Pride? Have you heard of Fedor? As for your logic: A beats B, than loses to C than C’s style is better than B’s? Actually if you have watched UFC a little more you would use the Renzo Gracie against Taktarov as BJJ vs Sambo, buy you don’t know that fight happened judging by how you had to use Severn…
As for Sambo vs BJJ in more recent history, how about Fedor destroying Big Nog three times in Pride when Nogueira was thought to be unbeatable prior to that subbing everyone with his excellent BJJ ground game?
Oh wait, you probably don’t even know who Nog is… [/quote]
Good post.
I still don’t know people are arguing/discussing which art is best?
You need to be proficient in all areas. Nuff said.
Also, just because X beat y, doesn’t mean that X’s style is better than Y’s style, it just means that X beat Y.
The thing that i find interesting is that when these fighters have a real fight then their style changes. What i mean is that when the bell goes, there is usually some kind of stand off where both are cautious and they size each other up. However when there’s some kind of pre/post fight brawl then it’s all anger and emotion and that seems to alter things slightly. Think about it - if you were angry at someone and wanted to give them a good hiding, you’re not thinking of applying a triangle choke, you just want to give them a good pounding. Just something i’ve noticed a few times.
[quote]F13 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Rulk Gracie wrote:
666Rich wrote:
however fedor doesnt do bjj…but judo and sambo
THat’s because there really isn’t any bjj yet in Russia. I heard someone opened a bjj studio in St Petersburgh however I doubt their instructor would be of world-class leve.
Besides, in regards to submission sambo is pretty good too, plus it has better takedowns than bjj, and combat sambo includes some striking and striking defense.
Remember when Dan Severn a world class wrestler, pounded that Russian Sambo expert Oleg Taktarov into oblivion in UFC 5.?
And do you also remember when that same world class wrestler Dan Severn got tapped out by Royce Gracie (the BJJ expert) in UFC 4?
Okay…well that’s the differnece between Jiu-Jitsu and Sambo.
Dude, are you serious? Have you watched Pride? Have you heard of Fedor? As for your logic: A beats B, than loses to C than C’s style is better than B’s? Actually if you have watched UFC a little more you would use the Renzo Gracie against Taktarov as BJJ vs Sambo, buy you don’t know that fight happened judging by how you had to use Severn…
As for Sambo vs BJJ in more recent history, how about Fedor destroying Big Nog three times in Pride when Nogueira was thought to be unbeatable prior to that subbing everyone with his excellent BJJ ground game?
Oh wait, you probably don’t even know who Nog is… [/quote]
Hey dude good to hear from you dude…Actually I went back to UFC 4 and 5 as an example.
Those were the days prior to crosstraining. Whatever combat art that you studied that was all you knew. Hence a wrestler was a wrestler. He was not a wrestler who was also good at submissions.
Are you with me dude?
Therefore, when Oleg Taktarov (who came directly from Russia) fought Dan Severn, it was pure wrestling vs sambo.
After several more UFC’s the fighters started to crosstrain in various martial arts. Then after that while someone may have listed their art as “Sambo” or “Karate” or whatever, it was somewhat misleading as they in fact had trained in other disciplines.
Do you get that yet dude?
Oh wait…you probably don’t even remember that far back…
The difference is comparing styles, not athletes. Fedor is a sick athlete who wins with his takedown defense, brutal punches and ability to take a punch and HE’S SUPER QUICK…What if someone is not? Then his system may not work.
It works cause an attribute he has, which he can’t teach everyone, allows it to work. As a system, the approach BJJ uses is very good, and now, very well known and predictable, so yeah, of course it loses.
While sambo, judo, wrestling are all great BJJ is almost always better for a regular guy. They just really know more details of how to get stuff to work for you.
I don’t defend BJJ cause I do it. I do it cause I’ve done a ton of other stuff and it really is well thought out. Fedor is a killer, but he does not win with Sambo alone. Take equals and teach them classic judo, boxing, bjj, sambo, wrestling. BJJ will be more complete as it, in my experience, is taught in a very realistic, systematic approach. All MMA guys know some of it.
Anyway, early fights like severn/gracie or gracie/taktarov make for great comparisons of pure systems, before BJJ was known by everyone. And also,
Many BJJ athletes are sub par and still do very good. Why? Cause of technique. Many super athletes do really well too, why? They are super athletes. What’s important is who can teach you to be like them. Renzo can teach me to be like him. Some good coaches out there can get you quicker, but it usually isn’t the best athletes who can show you this cause they were born that way or at least born with potential to be that way and when they work very hard and a regular guy works just as hard, they just are quicker.
But what is the point of style comparisons anyway as now everyone is doing MMA? if you’re a good athlete, just wresling and boxing will take you far. If you’re not a natural athlete try some bjj.
A big part of the ‘mix’ is and always will be BJJ. Boxing is number one for hands, wrestling great for clinch & takedowns but pure boxing and pure wrestling alone won’t cut it without you being bigger/stronger/faster than the opponent. Just cause I know boxing/wrestling doesn’t mean I’ll be able to do it on your average tough guy who may fight dirty and is a little bigger than me. Boxing can be easy to negate as people just rush in and you’re too close to hit good. Bjj is the only thing I used that let me beat I guy I otherwise shouldn’t have been able to beat.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
F13 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Rulk Gracie wrote:
Okay…well that’s the differnece between Jiu-Jitsu and Sambo.
Dude, are you serious? Have you watched Pride? Have you heard of Fedor? As for your logic: A beats B, than loses to C than C’s style is better than B’s? Actually if you have watched UFC a little more you would use the Renzo Gracie against Taktarov as BJJ vs Sambo, buy you don’t know that fight happened judging by how you had to use Severn…
As for Sambo vs BJJ in more recent history, how about Fedor destroying Big Nog three times in Pride when Nogueira was thought to be unbeatable prior to that subbing everyone with his excellent BJJ ground game?
Oh wait, you probably don’t even know who Nog is…
Good post. [/quote]
I’m still surprised I haven’t seen this addressed in any MMA threads when discussion of early UFC history is held.
Back in the beginning, there was no “MMA” as we use that term now. When we use that term now, we are actually discussing fighters versed in more than one art - oftentimes, jack of many arts, master of none. In the early days, “MMA” really referred to a contest of two fighters whose styles were absolutely different; for instance, the BJJ against a boxer, karate against kung fu, etc. and so forth whereas most contests then were held within a single discipline.
It’s not that BJJ “doesn’t rule or dominate” any longer - BJJ is still a necessary skill. It’s that when discussing present day “MMA”, we are now talking fighters that they themselves are “mixed martial arists” - instead of the contest itself being a mixed fight. So now, when we consider a fighter, BJJ is but one weapon in his “mixed” martial art arsenal, along with striking, kicking, etc.
The problem with the Gracies, in my opinion, is that they basically ignored developing other skills (relatively) in favor of propogating BJJ and its superiority. And yes, it IS superior - on the ground. And it was, and still is therefore, a necessary skill in a true “MMA” fighter’s skill set.
Why did Gracie dominate in the early days? As discussed here, “no one knew what it was or trained it”. But more specifically, he was fighting single discipline guys for the most part (not true “MMA” guys as we know the term today) - especially in UFC 1 etc. Why is it still important? Because fights still go to the ground. Why is it now but one piece to being a well rounded fighter? Because now “MMA” fighters can defend it and sometimes, fights don’t go to the ground
Just a slightly different slant on what I think we all agree on…and my honest opinion.
Steve
Great post Scrappy. It’s good to hear a comparison from someone who’s tried different styles.
It’s a good point about Fedor’s abilities.
Maybe it’s a little like bodybuilding, if your genetically gifted enough, you don’t have to use the best of techniques to be the best.
Are there some MMA fighters on site? Do you use BJJ? If you do how is that working out for you in the fights?
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I’m still surprised I haven’t seen this addressed in any MMA threads when discussion of early UFC history is held.
Back in the beginning, there was no “MMA” as we use that term now. When we use that term now, we are actually discussing fighters versed in more than one art - oftentimes, jack of many arts, master of none. In the early days, “MMA” really referred to a contest of two fighters whose styles were absolutely different; for instance, the BJJ against a boxer, karate against kung fu, etc. and so forth whereas most contests then were held within a single discipline.
It’s not that BJJ “doesn’t rule or dominate” any longer - BJJ is still a necessary skill. It’s that when discussing present day “MMA”, we are now talking fighters that they themselves are “mixed martial arists” - instead of the contest itself being a mixed fight. So now, when we consider a fighter, BJJ is but one weapon in his “mixed” martial art arsenal, along with striking, kicking, etc.
The problem with the Gracies, in my opinion, is that they basically ignored developing other skills (relatively) in favor of propogating BJJ and its superiority. And yes, it IS superior - on the ground. And it was, and still is therefore, a necessary skill in a true “MMA” fighter’s skill set.
Why did Gracie dominate in the early days? As discussed here, “no one knew what it was or trained it”. But more specifically, he was fighting single discipline guys for the most part (not true “MMA” guys as we know the term today) - especially in UFC 1 etc. Why is it still important? Because fights still go to the ground. Why is it now but one piece to being a well rounded fighter? Because now “MMA” fighters can defend it and sometimes, fights don’t go to the ground
Just a slightly different slant on what I think we all agree on…and my honest opinion.
Steve[/quote]
Thanks Steve, good summary of BJJ’s role before and today, and the explanation.
BJJ skills are very important in the real world and very useful in MMA.
However the BJJ tactics you saw in the old days of MMA are NOT good tactics in the real world - it is NOT a good idea to put yourself on the ground locked up around your opponent when there no doubt are several other opponents standing around ready to kill you.
However in the past that was a great idea in the ring.
I am not positive but I believe some of the rules were changed allowing ground striking that made this tactic not as … appealling. I am not sure of these rule changes though, just something I heard somewhere.
Again, in the real world, if you are going to do that, you have to be ready to face (and inflict) terrible real-world responses such as head butts, gouges, biting and every other horrific counter.
It’s a bit different in the ring when all you face is a bit of groin sniffing.
Note I have nothing against BJJ and realise that those tactics are not the only things they do - I just think it was a bit unbalanced back then, also, too many fanboys were created who thought it was the be-all-end-all … and the ones I have had to deal with in the real world were terribly bothersome.
I love the early Pride fights which were thirty minute hug-festivals with Bas commentating about how boring it was and how the audience was going to sleep!
YES!
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I’m still surprised I haven’t seen this addressed in any MMA threads when discussion of early UFC history is held.
Back in the beginning, there was no “MMA” as we use that term now. When we use that term now, we are actually discussing fighters versed in more than one art - oftentimes, jack of many arts, master of none. In the early days, “MMA” really referred to a contest of two fighters whose styles were absolutely different; for instance, the BJJ against a boxer, karate against kung fu, etc. and so forth whereas most contests then were held within a single discipline.
It’s not that BJJ “doesn’t rule or dominate” any longer - BJJ is still a necessary skill. It’s that when discussing present day “MMA”, we are now talking fighters that they themselves are “mixed martial arists” - instead of the contest itself being a mixed fight. So now, when we consider a fighter, BJJ is but one weapon in his “mixed” martial art arsenal, along with striking, kicking, etc.
The problem with the Gracies, in my opinion, is that they basically ignored developing other skills (relatively) in favor of propogating BJJ and its superiority. And yes, it IS superior - on the ground. And it was, and still is therefore, a necessary skill in a true “MMA” fighter’s skill set.
Why did Gracie dominate in the early days? As discussed here, “no one knew what it was or trained it”. But more specifically, he was fighting single discipline guys for the most part (not true “MMA” guys as we know the term today) - especially in UFC 1 etc. Why is it still important? Because fights still go to the ground. Why is it now but one piece to being a well rounded fighter? Because now “MMA” fighters can defend it and sometimes, fights don’t go to the ground
Just a slightly different slant on what I think we all agree on…and my honest opinion.
Steve[/quote]
Obviously no single art can dominate a sport after the world has been exposed to its potential and its shortcomings. But BJJ masters are still the last person (aside from maybe a great wrestler with Sub defense) any fighter wants to face.
I mean look at Big Nog while he is an olypmic level boxer he is still relying on BJJ alone 75% of the time and his record speaks for itself, man is second only to Fedor.
And then there is his teammate who gave Fedor the run of his life, Arona. He like his other teammate Filho is the absolute worst matchup for anyone in their weight divisions. People dont want to fight these guys, due to their ground control.
I would agree that BJJ is no longer the dominant art in MMA. I am an aspiring fighter who trains in wrestling, muay Thai and jiu-jitsu. I perfer wrestling and as Sakuraba, Fedor, Imanari, Couture, Hendo, Barnett, Lindland etc have proven…you don’t really need a strong BJJ game if you’re great at something else.
With all that said, you still do need BJJ. It helps you avoid a serious ass-kicking most of the time, provided you know what you’re doing. You don’t need to be Nogueira, but you should still know a few things even if you’re a Cro Cop-esque striker or a Hughes-like ground and pound machine.
I mean, look at Henderson. I don’t see the guy submitting guys left and right exactly but he uses some defensive BJJ to get off the bottom after surviving there. He does get caught swinging at times and opens himself for the TD but he is confident enough in his defense that he doesn’t care.
Personally, I like BJJ from a defensive aspect in terms of dodging submission attempts and for the positonal control aspects, especially from the top.
When attempting to compare fighting styles through contests like UFC or Pride, no one ever discusses the fact that these are all one-on-one fights. If you’re wondering about the real world application of fighting skills you would have to consider that in a bar fight, mugging, etc., there is a strong possibility that you would be squaring-off against multiple opponents.
Not to take away from UFC or Pride, they’re both great, but it’s simply not a definitive test of fighting style superiority. Picture a BJJ fighter trying to fight two or three guys at once and imagine the outcome.
I don’t see how BJJ is superior to Combat Sambo/Sambo in any rational way really, not the way they both are thaught today.
[quote]ytbones wrote:
BJJ still rules in mma.
There isnt a top ten fighter who doesnt study BJJ to learn how to use and/or defend subs. Everyone has to know the guard and the other BJJ positions in the sport.
Mixed Martial Arts is just that, mixed. You have to study more than one style so no longer is one style going to rule over all others.
BUT if youre looking for evidence of how strong BJJ still is in MMA look no further than the #2 heavyweight in the world, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. The only man to survive his guard is Fedor, nuff said.[/quote]
Dan Henderson survived Nogueira in RINGS, and won a decision(controversial). RINGS doesn’t allow strikes to the head no the ground, so it must have been tough.
[quote]Scrappy wrote:
The difference is comparing styles, not athletes. Fedor is a sick athlete who wins with his takedown defense, brutal punches and ability to take a punch and HE’S SUPER QUICK…What if someone is not? Then his system may not work.
It works cause an attribute he has, which he can’t teach everyone, allows it to work. As a system, the approach BJJ uses is very good, and now, very well known and predictable, so yeah, of course it loses.
While sambo, judo, wrestling are all great BJJ is almost always better for a regular guy. They just really know more details of how to get stuff to work for you.
I don’t defend BJJ cause I do it. I do it cause I’ve done a ton of other stuff and it really is well thought out. Fedor is a killer, but he does not win with Sambo alone. Take equals and teach them classic judo, boxing, bjj, sambo, wrestling. BJJ will be more complete as it, in my experience, is taught in a very realistic, systematic approach. All MMA guys know some of it.
Anyway, early fights like severn/gracie or gracie/taktarov make for great comparisons of pure systems, before BJJ was known by everyone. And also,
Many BJJ athletes are sub par and still do very good. Why? Cause of technique. Many super athletes do really well too, why? They are super athletes. What’s important is who can teach you to be like them. Renzo can teach me to be like him. Some good coaches out there can get you quicker, but it usually isn’t the best athletes who can show you this cause they were born that way or at least born with potential to be that way and when they work very hard and a regular guy works just as hard, they just are quicker.
But what is the point of style comparisons anyway as now everyone is doing MMA? if you’re a good athlete, just wresling and boxing will take you far. If you’re not a natural athlete try some bjj.
A big part of the ‘mix’ is and always will be BJJ. Boxing is number one for hands, wrestling great for clinch & takedowns but pure boxing and pure wrestling alone won’t cut it without you being bigger/stronger/faster than the opponent. Just cause I know boxing/wrestling doesn’t mean I’ll be able to do it on your average tough guy who may fight dirty and is a little bigger than me. Boxing can be easy to negate as people just rush in and you’re too close to hit good. Bjj is the only thing I used that let me beat I guy I otherwise shouldn’t have been able to beat.[/quote]
Actually Sambo is very good. Fedor does Combat Sambo. It really isn’t Fedor’s takedown defence, which is good. He usually, clinches and throws the guy, kind of like greco-roman. He did that alot to Nog.
I don’t want to compare styles because ultimately it is the individual.
Over here in Japan, there is alot of BJJ, also Sambo. And then just MMA, like Grabaka, and U-File. But if you have submissions and submission defence taught by pros nobody really mentions anymore what is what, this is BJJ triangle and this is a Sambo leglock.
But I understand what you said, you have a good point.
The early UFC’s were basically a set-up by Rorion Gracie as part of a very clever marketing campaign. They were very selective about who they let into the tournament, and while there were a few good grapplers there were basically no submission grapplers. They also set the rules to favor their stalling strategy – no time limits, no stand-ups. (Good strategy in that circumstance. Idiotic in real life). Notice that there were no good judoka or other submission experts in the early tournaments.
BJJ has a more refined version of judo ground work (ne waza) with crappy throws. Their ground techniques sets are essentially identical. Helio (and Carlos) Gracie modified some of the strategy and techniques from the judo Maeda taught Carlos, but there’s nothing really ground-breaking there. The triangle choke (sankaku-jime), for example, is a Judo technique that a student of Roll’s Gracie “invented” in the 70’s – by reading it in a Judo book.
BJJ looks a lot like the kosen style of Judo. Don’t forget that Kimura basicalliy destroyed Helio Gracie on the ground. And, for that matter, Yoshida beat Royce pretty soundly in their grappling match (regardless of whether Royce was out, Yoshida had mounted him and was applying a damn good choke).
Sadly, the judo ground really went downhill when they changed the rules to disfavor ne waza. Some good judo players have done reasonably well in MMA, though (Fedor, Karo, Yoshida)