Just a reply. One, I hope Natey is not refering to the “Bruce Lee, best of the best?” article? It uses too limited an amount of info and hearsay that I haven’t even heard of to be considered a thorough (sp?) study. One, the weight training program that he refers to is not the only one he’s ever used. To use that is like using someone’s cutting phase weights and rep scheme to determine their 1rm. Second, I don’t believe that because his upper body strength being so high explains his speed, since explosive power movements increase speed, not one’s ability to curl a weight. If I’m wrong on this, please let me know, but I’m sure that Ian King or Charles Poliquin will give you this same info (albeit with a hell of a lot more sciency talk). Third, and my last point on that is when did you need to squat a certain amount of weight to be able to do plyometrics? I don’t see the reasoning behind this despite the footnote in the article. In reference to Kimo losing, yeah he did. I don’t remember anyone saying it was because he had his hair pulled (and I think I’m the only one that mentioned him). If you lose because your hair was pulled, then you lost. Plain and simple. I mentioned him because if he had one more IQ point he would have taken advantage of the situation and pounded the hell out of Gracie. Also, even if this was just about street fighting, I was just showing how it takes a smart fighter to win and utilize all your strengths.
reply to bronx, i dont know about curling, but far as squating and leg power goes, your max power is at the mercy of your maximal strength, especially if you are “weak” (cant lift heavy). Someone with a higher 1RM will not always be more powerful, but if they train for it, they will be.
My two favorite street fighting techniques A) hold the blade between two finger while making a fist B) Mace him, then beat him down.
Lets not compare the octagon or the ring to
street fighting as there aren’t cement floors, cars, walls, windows, small corridors in either
fighting venue.Can you imagine a BJJ’er in
guard on a (cheese grater)cement floor?
There are a lot of good comments in this topic. The thing that strikes me the most is that this guy was supposed to be a black belt and he “walked around like he was tough.” Well, I would have my doubts about the validity of his black belt just based on this statement. One of the above comments mentioned that he knew black belts that weren’t worth a shit, and I gather that this is the case with this guy. If he were in actuality a viable black belt he wouldn’t have this attitude to begin with, not only that, he wouldn’t be out there picking fights with huge guys or anyone else for that matter. And since we’re mentioning specific arts here, I have to mention Bushidokon, an art that was invented by Jim Harrison. Those who know of Mr. Harrison will most likley attest to Bushidokon’s merits. It emphasizes street fighting as well as ground fighting.
I would like to think that this “black belt’s” teacher would be very disapointed with his student if he knew that he was abusing his art. In place of “black belt” insert “punk ass bitch.”
Have a nice day.
From my own personal experience, I’ve seen small guys handle themselves very well in fights. One particular retired Army ROTC instructor of mine had no problems putting very large fellows down when I wrestled and he was about 5’4" and 140lbs wet.
I’ve also seen really big dudes get their ass whacked by small guys in bar fights. My Marine recon brother and his Army recon buddy were both twice my size and, unfortunately, I ended up quite a few fights hanging out with them and have the scars to prove it. I’m pretty sure that I got my ass whupped more than I won but I don’t fight fair either. Why should I? Pull hair, bite, gouge eyes, head butt, hit first and from behind. All fair in street fighting.
Most of the power lifters that I’ve been around aren’t fast enough to get out of their own way. Sure they’re squatting 500 lbs but what good does being strong do ya when ya can’t touch some little guy wailing the hell out of you? I think the crazy Russian ain’t so crazy.
Anyhow, this thread really sounds pretty silly and I wonder about the age range of the majority of the posters here. I feel like I’m five years old again and arguing with the neighbor’s kid over whose daddy would win in a fight. When he gave up the fighting question and moved on to whose daddy could smoke more weed, I had no rebuttal. Shall we begin another thread in that direction?
You’re right about size and strength being a factor, but it’s not everything. First of all, karate isn’t exactly the best of fighting styles to be using if your outmatched in size. Just cause you’re big doesn’t mean you know how to hit either. I would put Tito Ortiz or Frank Shamrock up against anyone, no matter how big they are. What bugs me is bodybuilders who think they’re tough just because they have a lot of muscle mass. I know a lot of so-called little guys who are skilled in grappling and shoot-fighting that could take anyone down, even after they’ve gotten a hold of them.
I’m not trying to join this argument or say that powerlifters could win UFC. But, anyone who squats 500 pounds and is not a woman, a lightweight or a rookie is no powerlifter. Also, powerlifters, like olympic lifters have great vertical jumps and are very fast over a distance of about 10 yards. After 10 yards though, you’ll be in the clear.
One note on Bruce Lee, there is absulutely no way in hell that he could hold a 150-200 loaded barbell out in front of him for 1 minute. Here’s why, it’s impossible. Ok, that’s not a good enough reason. But this is: The 1999 AFSA International Strongman Competition used a similar test (static front raise for time) with 55 lbs. as an event. Magnus Ver Magnusson, winner of several World’s Strongest Man competitions got 56.41 seconds. No way someone could, at 1/2 Magnus’ bodyweight, use 3-4 times as much as one of the strongest men in the world. I’m not trying to flame you or anything. But I can’t believe it.
Its funny, some people just don’t want to beleive the truth. They argue and argue, saying oh, i’ve seen this 140lb guy beat up a 245lb monster. Ya right, sure you have dude. That simply is not the law of the jungle. You can take a big huge strong guy, and put him in with a much lighter guy who has lots of fighting experience, and the smaller guy may still lose. Size and strength are so important in fighting its not funny. this reminds me of a show that was on last night, called “politically incorrect”. there subject was AIDS
most people in this country don’t want to face the facts that aids is primarily a gay disease(this is not my opinion) but rather is based on the most up to date statistics on aids. because of the mainstream brainswashing that has taken place, saying that aids is an equal opportunity killer, which it simply isn’t. even though gays only make up 2% of society, they make up over 60% of the aids population. the others are made up of iv drug users. and some, i repeat some are normal hetero sexuals. but very few.
Conan, while I agree with you on the bullshit about AIDS being an equal opportunity killer (where so fucking politically correct in this country it’s pathetic) - I don’t agree with the little guy vs big guy theory. When I was in college I would guess I beat the shit out of maybe 14 big guys (me being about 190 / 5’9 - they about 6’5" 270). There are alot of factors that go into a fight, 40% mental, 40% skill, maybe 20% size & strength. Also, I was stronger than most of those clowns anyway - at least I could out bench & squat them in the weight room! Like I said earlier in this long torrid post, my only real ass kickings came when I faced a guy smaller than myself!
we can dissagree platehead, i just don’t think you fought really strong weightlifters. Fighting big fat guys, doesn’t mean fighting big, as in brutally strong. But at the same time, i remember back, when i was like 145lbs, and i used to wrestle guys all the time, who were huge and strong as hell. i was just so much better a wrestler, i would always win. But if i ever wrestled a big guy that knew even a little about wrestling, i would have been toast. you say, size and strength doesn’t matter. well, a bigger guy is going to be able to hit alot harder, for the most part. hes going to be alot harder to move or get off his feet, cause of his weight. let me ask you a question, could felix trinidad beat up mike tyson in a boxing match. of course not. it would be a slaughter. size does matter. its seems that only those who don’t have it, make excuses as to why small guys can win. sometimes, sure, they can win, if they have excellent fighting ability, and the big guy is just a big fat slob, then of course the little guy will win. but on the other hand, if you have an extremely strong guy, that has some fighting ability also, no little guy will stand a chance in hell of winning. just like in nature, the bigger the hunter, like a grizzly bear, or lion, the bigger animal will always win, just nature, the way things are.
Actually size and strength has a huge advantage in grappling.A big strong guy with no skill will lose against the smaller skilled fighter. I’m not saying size and strength alone will win you the fight, but I am saying that the big strong guy can have less skill than a small guy and still win the fight. All of the UFC fighters will say the same. Don’t rely on the old UFC’s, they are coming up to UFC 32 right now. All those fights people here are using as examples are obsolete. Why do you think there are weight classes now? Because the smaller fighter can not compete with the heavier fighters. The skill levels are too high now.
Hey man, I know I can beat the crap out of any 120# black belt in the gym. I can, I can, I can. And if you don’t believe me, send over all the 12 year old girls you can find and I’ll kick their asses too. I can’t believe this affront to my hugeness. BTW, my dick is way bigger than any 12 year old girl’s too.
I work with a guy who isn’t much to look at, but he’s mean and he’s beat up big guys before. He said it was because they were either big chickens who didn’t know how to use their muscle or they were tall & skinny or fat slobs. He said if they even sort knew how to handle themselves, he’d have to eat through a straw. There’s an interview with Andrei Chemerkin (from the last post) on the IWF site, he said he tapped a guy as lightly as he could and knocked him flat on his ass. Just imagine what he would do to somebody if he got really mad and socked someone as hard as he could. Who could take it?? Anybody?? Also, why is everybody comparing UFC & Pride to streetfighting? In the street, there’s no time limit, no rounds, judges decision, weight classes, rules, etc. I’ll say it again, Conan’s right, my money’s on the big freaky kind-of-skilled monster.
I can’t believe I am adding to this thread again because I think all this talk of who can beat up who in the UFC is stupid, but I will give you boys some straight up facts. Talking about endurance is SILLY. The average street fight lasts 20 seconds…not 3 minutes, not 2 minutes…20 seconds. Endurance isnt needed. Secondly, mindset is critical. If you cannot commit to a streetfight 100% DONT get into one. You have to go in knowing that all is fair…gouging, biting, testicle crushing…etc. Now as many of you know, I compete in the MA…but that has RULES. A streetfight has NO rules. You have to strike hard, and strike fast…anywhere you can cause damage. Too many of us MA forget that. If this little black belt had punched down on the back of this big guys neck as he was bent over to pick him up by the legs…or raked his eyes out…this fight could have turned out differently. Unfortunatly he was “conditioned” into what is fair and what is not…and probably played by those rules, getting his ass kicked in the process. In a streetfight…you have to have what is called “overwhelming violence of action” in other words…just hit to destroy. If your 250 pound big guy doesnt have it…but the 180 pounder does…sorry, the 250 pounder is gonna lose. I understand that a lot of you…for all the talk, have never been in a street fight…until you have experienced one, you will probably never understand what “overwhelming violence of action” is…until you snap and do it…or it is done to you. My advice boys…there is ALWAYS someone out there badder than you…avoid fights. Take it from a man who still has scars on his hand and arms from playing with someone who had a knife. Fortunatly for me…that day…I was the one who had the killer instinct…or I might not be here posting. PS also got to keep my wallet…lol!
how about some reality for the little guys out there!!! I have never lost a street fight, a bar fight, or any other kind of fight(well one time 4 little college kids jumped me and one of them broke a 2x4 over my head, but they ran away after I clocked one of them, so that can’t count as a loss). the reality is if your under about 175# I don’t think you could hurt me(I was dazed ONCE in sparring at Costello’s boxing gym in n.j.)now anyone that brings up leg kicks is correct, they are great for takeing out a larger man, but have you ever tried to land one? i doubt it. if the persons knee is not locked out or atleast almost locked out you just put yourself in a VERRY BAD position(ie. about to get stomped)if their knee is not locked you will do little or no harm. Doesn’t anyone realize why there are wt. classes in boxing? In a fight I’m getting the first punch in(which means the fight is over) if you make the first move I’m takeing you down and you are going to sleep. As far as M.A.'s go the only time to EVER attempt a kick is if it is a clear shot at a knee or if its more than one person and you need to create distance(ie. rear leg front kick done more to push than injure).granted a 150#er can beat a 165#er, and a 220# can beat a 260#er but a 150#er can not beat a 260#er(unless he has glass in his jaw or is REALY drunk. remember if you want to get big lift big, if you want to learn how to fight than fight!( or atleast spar full contact, everything goes)
Fighting in a controlled setting I’d say if the fighters skills are the same, the big guy will win most of the time. But on the street, if you are a big guy a lot of people won’t bother with a fair fight. Its kinda hard to open that can of whoop-ass if somebody just sprayed OC gas in your face or used another equalizer like a gun or a knife. So while a big guy can win a fair fight he’s more likely to end up in a dirty one, and the winner is the one who’s willing to get the most dirty. outlaw.
conan, your argument about mike tyson and trinidad makes no sense.
your argument started out being about big strong unskilled guys beating smaller skilled guys. you are comparing a small skilled guy to a big skilled guy.we’ve already said all things equal strength will tip the scales.
and then you said big strong guys that had any idea about fighting. which is it?we have seen big strong guys get beat by smaller guys, it happens, get over it. hell i remember this guy in school who could pick me straight up (at the time i weighed about 200lbs.)by grabbing me on both sides of my torso. hurt like hell. he was a strong kid. i heard he was fighting this wrestler named tony (who was about the same size and probably strong too)and i knew in my heart with robs freaky strength he would kill tony. well tony destroyed rob.now i know they were about the same size and maybe strength, but strength isn’t the deciding factor. i’ve seen big strong football players come and try to box but couldn’t hit as hard as me or lighter guys. i’ve seen big strong guys who couldn’t take a punch either. but i’ve seen the opposite too.remeber this also, it’s not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.
Ok T-fellas, let’s put a rest to the fussin’ and the feudin’. I’m thinkin’ all-out NHB T-forum mixed-technique Fight Club Tournament 2001…with no weight classes. Well?
"MB Eric: Pain hurts,tap out. Since 1962."
-Eric