I have to disagree Conan, for a few reasons. First, because someone is big and/or strong, does not make them necessarily good at any given athletic activity. Fighting is an athletic activity just like any other sport, which skills are important. Take “Worlds Strongest Bodybuilder” 300-350 lb. Greg Kovacs and put him on a football or rugby field. He’s bigger and maybe stronger than a lot of the players there, but he would get killed. Put him in a streetfight with “little” 215 lb. Mike Tyson and he’d also get killed (though that’d be cool to see). We also see things like this in the UFC with little, highly skilled guys beating bigger guys. Someone who springs to mind right away is Tank Abbott. He’s big and strong and did overpower some guys, but what happened against Maurice Smith, Vitor Belfort, or Pedro Rizzo? Tank got his ass kicked by smaller guys who gould fight well. Also check out UFC2 when 200lb. Keith Hackney beat 618lb. Emanual Yarborough(sp). One of my friends (160 lb. golden gloves boxer) got into it with a pro-football player a few years back and soundly kicked his ass. Though the dude came back with a tire iron so my friend booked. Being big can help, if you know how to use it, but just relying on that can get you into trouble. What if that black belt dude was Frank Shamrock or Tito Ortiz? Probably a different story! Finally, also realize that all black belts/martial artists are not equal. Can you compare a Lions Den fighter to some guy who gets sends away for one of those “Black Belt Home Study Courses”? Of course not. One thing that is bad about martial arts is that they have this aura of mysticism built into them. Like there is some “magic” involved that turns you into a killing machine. Charles Staley talks about people thinking dualistically, which is so true. If this “magic” martial artist loses a fight, it must mean that martial arts suck and don’t work. No, you have good martial artists and bad ones. Perhaps your friend fought a bad one (though maybe not). Either way, being strong won’t make you a great athlete if you have no skills. The opposite of that is great speed/skill will not be maximized if you have little strength. That’s why pretty much ALL good athletes practice both skill and strength work. I’d rather have skill though, than be a skill-less goon. Hehe. Luckily, I am in the middle (powerlifter/martial artist). Well, enough of this rant.
john, very good point. the myth and mystical hollywood aspect of martial arts is what creates the bad or ill-prepared martial artist.to these people martial arts are a comfort zone where in their mind they are learning to protect themselves but also they know it as a safe haven.i train my fighters at a martial arts school that tries to get away from those things. i’ve had many of the ma people ask to come and train with us, but they usually don’t come or they never come back because they get a harsh dose of reality.kickboxing has been connected at the hip with karate and other ma’s here in america and thats one of the reasons kickboxing hasn’t done real well here. we get the martial artist because of the kicks, they are our fan base but we can’t get the average joe or boxing fan because they think kickboxing is karate and they think karate is what their 9 year olds do 2 nights a week or what they see on tv.they don’t take it seriously, but when i show my boxing friends K-1 or muaythai, or guys like ramon dekker and perry ubeda, they’re blown away at how they fight.
Sounds to me like nobody wins, eh?
Size matters if you can get a good line on your opponent. Smaller opponents need more technical ability. But neither really matter. the winner is the one who can control the fight or flight reaction and use the adrenaline without making a mistake, and to be in control enough to capitalize on the other guy’s mistake.
Technique, speed, size, and strength are great, if you can use them for real.
first off, i have watched the UFC many many times, and its seems like the only guys who win, are big huge strong wrestlers. "mark coleman, some other huge ass guy, with huge traps, forget his name though. why do you think they now have weight classes in the UFC, cause small guys are no match for big guys, given the same skill levels. the only time a small guy has beaten big guys, is when his skill level is so superior, he has no choice but to win. i mean how many times did dan severn win the UFC, that guy is 250+ lbs.
my fighting experience, is tons of wrestling experience, starting when i was real young, then martial arts experience, year and years of kickboxing expereince. no i mainly just weightlift, i know how hard i can hit, and how hard it would be, to take me down.
Conan-I agree with you that a good big guy has an advantage over a good little guy. But just because someone is big doesn’t mean they can fight. Severyn was big but a good wrestler. He has also learned submission since then. He couldn’t beat 170lb. Royce Gracie though. Coleman has also learned submissions, and was a good wrestler. But he also got knocked into next week by a round house kick to the face that totally KO’d him. You might be thinking of Tank Abbott as the guy with huge traps. He’s lost more than he has won, like I think I said earlier. Anyway, the guys you mentioned are both big and can fight and they are vrey dangerous. Incidentally, the current, undefeated (6-0) UFC champ is Randy Couture who’s not massive, and 6’1, 220. But he’s no 90 lb. weakling.
Funny thing about facts they vary based on opinion. I am a grappler by training and have learned striking also. I have to say if you are a well rounded fighter (meaning you have actually fought on a regular basis street and competition) your chances against others big or small are far better. First of all the guy you refer to in this story sounds like a fitness martial artist. Meaning has the best (untested)technique around. I have seen this as well in fact I have ripped guys like this new assholes. That is not ability. The fact that he made it known to you he was a black belt says enough. If he was truely confident in his skill level he would not have even discussed it. Size and strenght can be an advantage. They can also be a disadvantage depending on the actual sinereo. Oh BTW you must not have heard of the Gracie clan and how they whooped ass in the UFC back when they didn’t have all the new rules. They were scrawny grapplers that would choke out all their opponents (mostly big guys). This is simply an opinion everyone has them I am of the opinion that all things being equal (meaning fighting ability) the bigger guy will win. However the better fighter will always be victorious regardless of his opponents size. I believe a well rounded fighter is one who posesses striking, grappling and pressure point techniques (and the part that goes without saying is actual experience). Everyone has many bar/high school fight stories how one guy or another got their ass kicked. They do not mean shit. Even the best of fighters has gotten his/her ass handed to them at one point or another pain is a great motivator not to do those things again.
Ah, this thread is killing me. Here I am recovering after two medical procedures and I am reminded of sweet, glorious grappling. I think what we have here, fellow T-freaks, as far as arguments on the subject are concerned, are three major catagories of a fight:
- Who strikes first and how hard
- How prepared (aka Adrenaline rush during) each participant is for/during the fight
- Manipulation
Starting with first strike, if the larger fighter strikes first, and gets a good, quality shot in, he will have a very good chance of winning the fight. Because of that silly little factor called physics (Force, velocity, surface area, ect.) His blows, with adequate execution, shall do damage to anybody however much they are trained. IF our small participant strikes first, and stikes well, he/she has an “opening” in which he/she can cause more damage to the opponent. - Preparation and Adrenaline have been previously discussed on this post by T-bro Whopper. I think much of a fighter’s preparation has to do with TSS )Time Spent Sparring) While no controlled scenario will prepare you for the exact showdown that occurs on the street, in the bar, or with your significant other, sparring will give you a good idea of what happens when you are “faught back against” and energies oppose one another. Knowledge of having to deal with getting hit back may indeed make you more comfortable and realistic in the true fight situation. Needless to say that a rush of adrenaline in a guy already angry and build like a rhino could create considerable peril for little Johnny “The Doe-eyed Dodger” Taekwandoboy.
- Manipulation has to do with the flow of energies during a fight. The important factor is capitolization, and not the investment bank, free market kind. Suppose Rhino boy takes a big drunken swing at you and misses, you, being smaller, have the opportunity to take advantage of the situation due to his poor positioning. If an individual is off-balance, and you smash his/her teeth in with a right hook, or sweep-kick a knee, the damage inflicted will be greater because of the disproportionate balance of control. Being off-balance and attempting to regain homeostasis is not a good recipe for a shock absorber. In grappling, a wrong move easily gets you choked out, or in a position where fists are knocking fragments of your once proudly intact skull into your grey matter. Which brings us to grey matter, the most important tool in a fight, use it. Lata.
"MB Eric: Proving that when done correctly, with supervison, caution, a bit of intelligence and just a minimal amount of care, you're not doing something the wrong way. Since 1888."
-Eric
Well i believe in general most of you are right big guy has some general advantage but it all pertains with skill stamina, adrenaline but one that you all have forgotten and maybe the biggest factor in my mind is who has the heart and the cojones!!! Ive seen small guys beat big guys and vice versa!! My momma always said he who lands the first good punch USually wins!!! By the way im 6’3 330 lbs and used to box and do judo many years ago. grappling in street fighting is also much difrent than the ring. There are no ring parameters and EVERYTHING GOES including eye gaughing , biting, head butting, pulling out weopons etc. And now a days its usually acompanies a couple of his buddys. Hey its the heart and cojones that matter.
Remember Bruce Lee guys??
of course strenght is a BIG plus, but I wouldnt try to beat a shaolin monk even if I weighted 250 pounds.
I heard that all things being equal, a big guy will always take a little guy. That’s the whole idea behind martial arts, to give the little guys a chance. If the big guy doesn’t train in any was or doesn’t know what to do, he’ll be sore the next day. If the big guy knows how to use his muscle though, it doesn’t matter how the little guy fights.
Larry-I actually met two of the Shaolin Monks through a seminar7"exchange" with my school. They were small, but their power was literally scary. As I stated earlier, I’m not big on the mysticism aspect associated with martial arts, but these guys were unreal
The Gracie’s were fighting mostly untrained people who were picked off the street. The ufc would give them some martial arts title and bs the public. Look at the Gracie’s now. They are getting their asses handed to them in every fight. Bigger, stronger fighters have a huge advantage. I’ve heard 160lbs grapplers talking about how they have trouble with big less skilled opponents. Of course skill level is important but so is size and strength. Also Tank Abbott sucks. He hasn’t beaten any good fighters.
first off, if bodysize and weight didn’t matter in fighting, then why does boxing have weight classes. The reason is very simple, cause even 20lbs of solid muscle can make a difference in power and overall strength. You take a guy like Felix Trinidad, the best fighter in the world right now, nobody can beat him. But he ever said “hey, i think i’ll fight a heavyweight, like a Lenox Lewis, or a Mike Tyson”. What do u think would happen. Total destruction, thats what. Not only does size make a difference in strength and over all power, but also a difference in the kind of punishment you can take. The same for olympic wrestling, why are there weight classes, cause there has to be, you can’t possibly expect a little middleweight to beat a big heavyweight. Thats why they have weight classes. Even a bum of a heavyweight would destroy the best of the best lightweight champion. cause is just to much power and overall strength. Some say, what does a big bench have to do with fighting. when u start to grapple with one of those guys, then you will know why it helps. Oh, one more thing, dan severn absolutely killed Joyce gracie in their fight, but severn got careless and over eager, and got caught in a submission, but up till then severn was on top of him the whole entire match. just like Ken shamrock did to him, totally wiped him out. never once, did joyce have the advantage against shamrock. now i’m talking the superfight here. One more example, lol, lets look at animals for a second, lets take the cheetah, very fast, like lightning, but could a cheetah beat a male lion. of course not, why, cause the lion, though he may be slower, he has far more power and strength and would slaughter the cheetah in seconds. They are both very good hunters. this just proves over and over again, if both are of equal skill, the big animal or person can be of less skill and still win. cause of his size and strength.
Conan-you’re a big guy right? But, littler guys allways kick your steroidal ass.
I’d have to agree with Conan. Many things come in to play in a street fight though, not the least of which is handling the adrenaline rush which was mentioned before but you never really think about until you are in the situation. The reason I agree with Conan is that I was a grappling student about 10 years ago. I was a meek 145 pounds sopping wet. We trained in all the submission holds, pressure points, etc. There was a guy in the class who was probably a buck eighty five but fairly strong and none of the smaller guys could even apply an arm bar to him because of the strength difference, and that was in practice so I imagine in a real fight by the time I would have figured that out my head would have been mush. Now I know in a real street fight it doesn’t take all that much strength to gouge out eyeballs, but that assumes the smaller guy has control of his arms and hands after he just got hit or tackled hard, probably with double or triple the force he has become accustomed to in sparring. And good luck trying to apply the arm bar the trained and aggravated 200+ pounder who is highly intent on tackling you and bashing your head in. And I haven’t even broached on the subject of greater strength/force application from the bigger guy having longer limbs (in general). I’m definitely not trying to put down the martial arts as I believe they are highly effective, it’s just that they are much more so when combined with strength and/or size which many martial artists ignore in the pursuit of technique. One last thing, in mentioning the UFC, look at the Kimo vs. Gracie match. Kimo lost the match by having his pony tail pulled on, but not after nearly crippling Gracie with tournament ending injuries for him because of the insurmountable strength difference. I can’t even imagine what would have become of Gracie if Kimo was bald.
Conan, I think that is what everyone is saying all things equal (fighting skill wise) The bigger guy will win. If not don’t put your money on size.
Um, just because so few people are really answering this thread appropriately (I may not either) with the exception of a few, I thought I’d throw in my opinion. One, for the many people that are saying they are both weight trainers and martial artists, I’m sure the majority of you have heard that with all things being equal (skill, speed, technique, etc) the stronger person has an advantage. Now, also remember, which doesn’t seem to be showing in people’s responses, there are more variables in winning a fight than people can imagine. Everyone keeps saying “yeah, if he’s a small karate guy, he’ll get fucked up, but against a submission fighter (and for some reason, people are excluding wrestling) he’ll lose”. Now, people are quoting the UFC and the Gracies but seem to not be watching what I’m watching. In 3, Royce went up against Kimo, the epitome of this thread. Royce, being 175 at best and Kimo being 6’5" and 250. Yes, Royce won, but he had to bow out because Kimo put a hurting on him. Now, if you watch the fight, you can conclude a few things. Maybe if Kimo was a better trained striker, he would have won (he didn’t take advantage of having Gracie on the floor). Maybe he was nervous. In any case, a striker hurt, and arguably beat a grappler. Also, the martial arts has been raped by more tricksters than even bodybuilding. Remeber karate kid, Ninja turtles, and any other big martial arts movie of the 80’s and early 90’s? Any two bit blue belt (which varies, or doesn’t even exist, from style to style) would go out, open a school and call himself a master. What you get is watered down martial artists who couldn’t defend themselves from dust. So, before people knock an art, or anything, they should know about the art (isn’t that how you buy your supplements, by research?). And yes, a well-rounded martial artist (which to most people means just striking/kicking and grappling) is better off than just one style. Lastly, about Bruce Lee, no he wasn’t a big guy (155lbs at his biggest), but he was a POWERFUL guy!!! I can not stress that enough. He was ahead of his time in terms of bodybuilding and strength training (although not always with a good program) He kicked 400lbs heavy bags and made them swing! The average heavy bag is 70-85lbs. He could hold 150-200lbs on a loaded weight bar in front of him for a full minute. I have no idea how many people can do that, if any. So, to sum up my response (which is scattered everywhere) is that people that are martial artists should strength train (duh), train in more than one style, train under a qualified teacher, and remember the number one rule, never underestimate the opponent in front of you. Also, I like to use () a whole lot (could you tell?).
Bronx Bomber hasn’t read that Bruce Lee article on the Myodynamics site yet. Yeah, Conan’s right. I’d like to see some little dude take a poke at someone like Andrei Chemerkin. He’s an Oly. champ (1996) heavyweight weightlifter, he wanted to weigh 400lbs for sydney and almost clean & jerked 600lbs in the sydney olympics. He’s also a cop so he must also know something about defending himself. Somebody PLEASE tell me who could put up a fight against someone like that!! He might be as skilled as someone who’s been studying martial arts for years on end, but his speed & strength would more than make up for that, wouldn’t it?
Didn’t anyone read my post?? They keep stealing the things I said! Hehe. I’m in agreement that a big, skilled guy definately has an advantage. What I disagree on is that because you’re a big, strong dude you have an advantage. I say you have more leeway if you’re strong (glancing blows can still do damage, ability to take punishment), but fighting is a still a skill. Someone brought up Kimo and a few people said that Gracie won cause he pulled his hair. Guess what-this thread is about street fighting! If a little guy pulled the big guys hair in the street, would it not “count”? Of course it would! Granted, I am not denying that Kimo did well pretty much solely because of size and strength, but he lost still. So, what’s the lesson of this whole little debate? Practice fighting AND practice strength training for athletics and you’ll have you best chance of not getting smooshed in the street.
Everytime I see one of these idiotic “who could beat up who” threads it just makes me cringe. Why do you care? Tough, strong, smart people will always be dangerous, whether they are power lifters, judoka, or ballet dancers. Weak, stupid, or cowardly people will always get stepped on, whether they are powerlifters, judoka, or ballet dancers. Training does make a difference, but as Mark Twain said “You cannot educate iron ore into gold.”