Big Challenge (I Think) for the Group

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]speakman wrote:
Scott M wrote:
speakman what is your HRT regiment?

Test Cyp 100 mg 1/week?

And have you since done blood work after getting the treatment to see where it puts you at?

Okay, finally got the answer to this from my doctor (or, more accurately, the cute nurse who gives me the shots)… Looks like I’m getting 200 mg/ml of Testosterone Cypionate each week (good guess!).

Still waiting for the cycle plan from the doctor:

  1. How long should my cycle be? 12 weeks?
  2. How long should I cycle off for? 2 weeks?
  3. Should I take anything during the off time?
  4. Should I take anything else besides the T during the cycle?
  5. Can I go on with this plan (whatever it ends up being) forever?

I’ll let everyone know what the doctor comes up with, and of course would be open to feedback from the group in the meantime. Or is this a question more appropriate for the “Steroids” forum?

Incidentally, I realize that what I’m taking is an anabolic steroid, so it may seem now like I’m “cheating” in terms of trying to add mass and strength with the Rippetoe program. However, I’m not sure this would be the right way to look at it, since my natural T levels were so low. Aren’t I just “leveling the playing field” now in order to give myself a fair chance at success? Curious how everyone else sees this…

[/quote]

IMO that doseage is too small for you to actually be out of the “natural” range. While a drug is a drug, you’d need to be on a lot more then 200mg of test/week. I know but a small amount about roids, so someone else may want to second this.

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He’s not on a cycle, 200 mg of test cyp a week will likely put him right at the top(or maybe slightly over) of the reference range.

Speakman,

HRT is pretty much a lifetime commitment if it’s required. Natural production that is shut down(or under performing) is not going to improve with age. It is also not cheating(unless you are competing in drug tested events… that’s a gray area), it’s like saying a diabetic is “cheating” because he uses insulin. Yes people can abuse it for bodybuilding purposes but with a sane dosage and legitimate reason(being unable to produce enough) there are no moral problems in my mind.

My suggestion as far as your treatment would be too research Dr. John Crisler’s HRT protocol’s which implement HCG and other important things into the mix besides the simple test shots.

Good news is that your dosage and timing(weekly of cyp) are significantly better than most initial treatments. Some doctors try to give patients bi weekly shots without realizing they are setting their patients up for a roller coaster due to fluctuating hormone levels. The gels are not any better as so little of the hormone is absorbed through the skin. 1x weekly test cyp or 2x weekly test enan are best options for steady blood levels.

tribunaldude I care about his HRT, it’s an extremely important thing(well beyond bodybuilding… quality of life and health) that needed to be taken care of.

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Thanks for the quick feedback, guys!

tribunaldude: I don’t know… Am I making progress? Looking at the chart I posted on 10/7, it’s clear that I’ve added weight over the last month to many of my lifts; my overall volume is definitely increasing. Doesn’t this count as progress? I’m not being facetious… Maybe what looks to me like progress looks like something else to the rest of the group. Also, in the past month or so I’ve gone up in weight about eight pounds, and it doesn’t seem to be all fat. Not sure (I don’t trust my Tanita scale!)…

Daily nutrition: 190g protein / 135g carbs / 70g fat (I think; not keeping super close track these days, I admit). Probably somewhere around 2000 cal/day.

Rippetoe program: I have been on this a long time, haven’t I! Over six months… Maybe it is time to move on, not sure… One issue: I just injured something (groin? upper thigh?) last Saturday doing squats and can barely walk at the moment. Seems to be getting better every day, but has probably set me back a little…

Scott M: Thanks for the pass on weekly cyp! :slight_smile: Seriously, makes me feel better to hear that what I’m getting is sane and also effective… Will definitely look up John Crisler’s stuff…

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Just looking out for you man…Some of these guys have a stilted perception of how much size they can EVER hope to add. If youre not pre-pubescent, gaining size NATURALLY (since the T you get only puts you back in a natural range, I assume) is a slow process that drops off a LOT with age as well as training age.
And what do you hope to achieve with 2000 calories a day exactly, if I may ask?

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[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Just looking out for you man…Some of these guys have a stilted perception of how much size they can EVER hope to add. If youre not pre-pubescent, gaining size NATURALLY (since the T you get only puts you back in a natural range, I assume) is a slow process that drops off a LOT with age as well as training age.
And what do you hope to achieve with 2000 calories a day exactly, if I may ask?[/quote]

I appreciate that… At this point, ANY size and strength that I can add will be fantastic, considering the several years and several thousand dollars I’ve spent (on gym membership, protein, supplements, tests, etc.) just trying to START the process of changing my body. If you look back at my very first post that started this thread, you’ll see that it’s all been very frustrating for me, but for the first time ever it seems like I’m making some kind of progress…

Hate that I have to say “seems like”, but, admittedly, everything so far (slight weight gain, slight strength gain, etc.) seems just a little ambiguous right now… My question still stands, though right now it’s probably rhetorical: Am I making progress?? LOL

To answer your question, my goal is pretty simple (in theory!): I’d like to add some muscle mass (10 pounds of added muscle weight would blow my mind!!), add some strength, and minimize any fat gain. Actually, ideally I’d like to lose 10 pounds of fat at the same time that I’m adding muscle, since I still really seem to have “skinny-fat” syndrome (the flab around the middle just won’t leave in spite of years and years of trying!!!). I know losing fat while at the same time adding muscle is generally considered “impossible”, but maybe since I’m still kind of a “newbie” and since I’m finally getting my act together in the area of testosterone, who knows…

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For what it is worth I did not start losing fat until I cut out dairy. Then I ratcheted down my processed grains. It was uncomfortable but I really do not miss them anymore. I have a friend who is a nutritionist and she mentioned that I could have had some mild alergies that I did not know about. Now if I could kick the alcohol I would be set!

Muscle went up, fat went down. I know you are working with a doc for your T but you may want to see if there is a nutritional component you have over looked.

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Okay, so I went off the T for 2 weeks and just started up again last Thursday. Interesting to note: During the entire period when I was getting the shots, my strength seemed to be continually going up on pretty much everything.

(I say “pretty much everything” as opposed to “everything” because about a month ago I decided to injure myself doing squats [groin/thigh/hamstring/knee/who-knows] and am still trying to recover from that…) But during my “off time”, my strength definitely went down on everything! Amazing how quickly my muscles started to turn girly (no offense to the strong girls on T-Nation!!)…

So, now I’m curious how long it’s going to take to turn back around now that I’m back on the T. One week? Maybe two? We’ll see…

Also, I tried to talk my doc into upping me from 200mg/week to 300mg, but he’s not budging… Going in today or tomorrow for a “free testosterone” blood test…

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I just read through this entire thread, and I must say hearing about your progress is just awesome! So happy for you! I actually recently started Rippetoe’s as well (just finished week 3 now) and have been making consistent gains. Great to hear a fellow T-Nation’er having success with it too!

 Also, when you mentioned that your skinny-fat, and then posted the link to the article about a skinny-fat hardgainer, it just hit me:  that's why I've been having so much trouble all along.  Here's my very first introductory post that I made a few weeks back: http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_beginner/not_sure_what_to_do_next

I have very similar problems, of fat just not wanting to go away. I’ve made drastic weight loss (from 210 to 160) much like you (and congratulations for that, I know how much it takes!), but the weight in the stomach just won’t come off. I’m curious, have you measured your weight and your BF% recently? Im just wondering how those numbers have been changed since you started Rippetoe’s. I know the strength gains for us guys are great, but seems like we’re both also interested in some fat loss, hehe. In any case, I too should start making an excel spreadsheet like you did (im just writing numbers down).

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[quote]Kaizen08 wrote:
I have very similar problems, of fat just not wanting to go away. I’ve made drastic weight loss (from 210 to 160) much like you (and congratulations for that, I know how much it takes!), but the weight in the stomach just won’t come off. I’m curious, have you measured your weight and your BF% recently? Im just wondering how those numbers have been changed since you started Rippetoe’s. I know the strength gains for us guys are great, but seems like we’re both also interested in some fat loss, hehe. In any case, I too should start making an excel spreadsheet like you did (im just writing numbers down). [/quote]

Congrats on your progress, especially the major fat loss! I just read through your thread, and looks like you’ve already gotten some excellent advice on diet and nutrition, etc. To answer your question, I haven’t measured my BF% or even weight recently, as I’m just not sure about the numbers I’m seeing when I do… Say I go up 2 pounds: Is that 2 pounds of fat, 2 pounds of muscle, or 1 pound of each? So, taking the advice of someone on my thread, I just go by the mirror and by my wife’s feedback these days!

That said, I’m still not at all happy with the flabby stuff that’s around my middle, though it does seem to be a lot better than before I got on the right track with diet, workout, etc. As I mentioned earlier in my thread, I’ve been told by three different doctors (real ones) that the only way to eliminate my flab entirely is with liposuction, and my wife could think of a LOT of other things besides that to spend our money on! So, might be stuck with it, though, like you, I refuse to have a defeatist attitude about it! Instead, I’ll keep doing what I’ve been doing for about three straight years now: Just keep working on it! And the progress I’ve made this year is very encouraging…

Finally, the thing that is clearly making the biggest difference for me is the testosterone shots I’m now getting every week. Even with these, my progress is probably pretty unimpressive compared with most of the guys (and probably girls, too) on T-Nation. But if one of my goals in life is to have the best body that I can, I guess I just need to be happy with any progress at all! Silly to mention, but I’m genetically gifted in the area of the brain, but not so in the area of the male physique. Bummer I can’t be one of those people who have both!! LOL…

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I’m with tribunal on this one. . . I think you are stuck in paranoid state about fat gain and are severely limiting your overall progress. 2000 calories a day?? Fuck man, my breakfast is 1300 calories and I still have a 6 pack.

Its all about intensity, timing your meals correctly, and eating ENOUGH to fuel the progress you want. If you are putting fat on at 2000 cals, you aren’t doing something right, sorry.

You might be saying to yourself that I’m young and can get away with this, but you are on HRT and your test levels are probably the exact same as mine. Please up the cals by about 1000 and keep busting your ass in the gym, and continue some cardio if you feel you need to. I just think you are holding yourself back, sorry if I sounded harsh. (btw I have a 1100 calorie smoothie in my hand as I am typing this, and I’m not worried about it at all!)

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waylander…i wish me and speakman could feel the same way about in taking large amounts of calories as you do, but I completely know how he feels. I’ve dealt with this problem of abdominal fat ever since puberty, and since speak is older than me (im 22), I can only imagine how he feels about it.

It’s almost as if I have a fear of taking too many calories. My weight problem affects (and has affected in the past) every single aspect of my social life. I thought losing 50 pounds would be the answer for sure, but then when your face looks anorexic and you still have the big belly, then you feel so disheartened (more details on that story in the link provided in my previous post).

To speakman: Thats a great goal to have, its very similar to mine actually. I mentioned that regardless of what genetics has in store for me, I’m gonna keep working on the goals that I have, but lately I’m starting to believe the former more and more. So 3 doctors have told you the only way to rid of it is by liposuction? They’ve always just told me “keep working at it and exercise and eat healthy,” which is the most unhelpful information i could have recieved.

But the idea of the 8 billion fat cells that are still there makes sense, and I have the feeling I’d have a similar fate. But don’t let my negativity get to you lol, you’ve come a very long way. PS…I know what you mean about being gifted in both, I wish I was one of them too LOL

I recently started to incorporate 30 min of HIIT on my off days from SS (30 run/60 walk intervals); I’ll probably let you know how that turns out.

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I used to be chubby too. I didn’t like it so I did something about it. Having a defeatist attitude won’t help lose the fat. Cardio wasn’t even my ticket out, it was weight training 6-7 days a week for 4 years. Sometimes you just have to turn up the intensity knob to 11.

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[quote]Kaizen08 wrote:
I just read through this entire thread, and I must say hearing about your progress is just awesome! So happy for you! I actually recently started Rippetoe’s as well (just finished week 3 now) and have been making consistent gains. Great to hear a fellow T-Nation’er having success with it too!

 Also, when you mentioned that your skinny-fat, and then posted the link to the article about a skinny-fat hardgainer, it just hit me:  that's why I've been having so much trouble all along.  Here's my very first introductory post that I made a few weeks back: http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_beginner/not_sure_what_to_do_next

I have very similar problems, of fat just not wanting to go away. I’ve made drastic weight loss (from 210 to 160) much like you (and congratulations for that, I know how much it takes!), but the weight in the stomach just won’t come off. I’m curious, have you measured your weight and your BF% recently? Im just wondering how those numbers have been changed since you started Rippetoe’s. I know the strength gains for us guys are great, but seems like we’re both also interested in some fat loss, hehe. In any case, I too should start making an excel spreadsheet like you did (im just writing numbers down). [/quote]

The reason why that ‘fat just won’t go away’ is because you are 160 pounds. You need more muscle in order to boost your metabolism. Keep lifting and eating lots of clean food with cardio thrown in. Build up momentum now so that in a few years you have a lot more muscle and then you can diet down and that fat will come off a lot easier.

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Kaizen08 what are your long term goals?

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My long-term goal for now is: http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808476050/photo/970416674 + 6 pack abs and bigger arms. I figured that’s a great goal to work up to.

Der Candy: Yea, I definitely thought about that, which is why I decided to start to focus on gaining mass. went from 165 start of this summer to ~179 now. That’s why I’m doing Rippetoe’s. I figured that would be the best way to gain overall strength.

But that reminds me of a few question I had: does an increase in strength also mean an increase in size? Can you have one without the other? Should I focus on a size gaining workout rather than a strength gaining?

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[quote]speakman wrote:
However, still struggling with body fat sticking around AND little actual muscle mass gain. To put it simply, my weight and BF% are inexplicably pretty close to what they were when I started all of this many, many months ago.

[/quote]

Speakman,
You seem overly concerned about body fat. You have to get past that one point if you want to make progress. Your first post said you weighed 165. What do you weigh now? You should weigh at least 10 - 15 lb.s more than you did when you started. It has been 7 months since your first post. If you haven’t put on any weight, WTF?!?!?!?

 You are not going to change your body by starving yourself and working out more.  Your progress is going to stall and you are going to start getting injured.  It sounds like that is already happening to you.  Is it?  A lot of your initial gains are from learning to do the exercises correctly and improving your CNS.  But you are not going to gain muscle unless you eat more.  I am not telling you to go get fat.

Try to gain at least 1 - 2 lb.s per month at the start to see how you respond. If you don’t try this, you will NEVER know what you are capable of. You need to do this for at least 6 months or a year. Stop looking in the mirror so much. Go look up dysmorphia. Everyone has some form of it. Constantly trying to judge yourself is stupid. Take a picture and look at it in 6 months if you want to see a difference. I ask my wife if my arms look any bigger and she looks at me like I am stupid and says she can’t tell a difference. But the measuring tape does not lie.

Liposuction? WTF?!?!?! Spend the next year packing on some muscle and see how you like it. If you do, the fat you have around your middle will not seem so important.

I am not trying to bash you or be negative. Like I said in previous posts, I am 42 and did the exact same thing you seem to be doing and wasted a lot of time. If you really want to change your body, you are going to have to put in a couple of years of hard work. Good luck.

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[quote]Kaizen08 wrote:
My long-term goal for now is: http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808476050/photo/970416674 + 6 pack abs and bigger arms. I figured that’s a great goal to work up to.

Der Candy: Yea, I definitely thought about that, which is why I decided to start to focus on gaining mass. went from 165 start of this summer to ~179 now. That’s why I’m doing Rippetoe’s. I figured that would be the best way to gain overall strength.

But that reminds me of a few question I had: does an increase in strength also mean an increase in size? Can you have one without the other? Should I focus on a size gaining workout rather than a strength gaining?[/quote]

Gaining strength in the moderate rep ranges (5-10) is THE way to train for hypertrophy. Forget about those ‘hypertrohpy’ programs that have you doing a million sets with the same, tiny weight. At this stage, gaining strength and hyperotrophy are one and the same game.

If you are doing Rippetoes and are managing to progress regularly then stick to it. I would recommend you eat lots of clean food and don’t even count calories for now. Eat lots of protein in each meal, and try and fill out the rest with vegetables, and some good carbs. No carbs after 6 o clock (keep it protein, vegetables and some healthy fat). 6 meals a day, you know the drill. Keep it BASIC.

The worst thing you could do now is agonize over your fat and restrist calories and end up making no progress in the gym and looking exactly the same as now (or worse) 5 months down the line.

Look at it this way. Your goal is to look fairly muscular. That will require large numbers in the gym to make your body put on that muscle, and those strength gains are going to require food. You don’t need to become a fatass in order to do this. If fat gain does become an issue, start doing low intensity cardio after your workouts, 15-20 minutes each time. If it is still and issue start adding some on off days as well, or cutting off carbs earlier in the day, etc. But you don’t need to worry about that now. It’s all about making small changes and monitoring how things go.

Look at this as eating enough food to fuel those strength gains and add muscle in the mirror, while eating properly enough and doing cardio to keep your bf from getting too high. Don’t think of this as ‘bulking’ and ‘cutting’ right now, it’ll only confuse you, slow down your progress and stop you from seeing the bigger picture.

This post has turned out to be longer than I expected but I hope I can steer you in the right direction. I was in the same predicament as you and really all that needs to be done here is eating well and lifting hard.

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Ok der candy, thank you for that information, I think its exactly what I needed to hear lol. Some great advice, and you caught me in thinking it being either a cutting or bulking stage. I’ll see on a week by week basis if I need to eat more, or if I’m in need of some cardio. And speakman, sorry for hijacking your thread buddy lol, its just that me and you have similar problems and goals.

 I'm gonna take the G-flux philosophy and apply it consistently, it makes alot of sense.  I also just ordered Surge, I've been seeing it recommended way too many times to not try it.
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Hi, guys… Sorry for the long period of silence… For some reason, the Web site has stopped e-mailing me notifications when someone posts on this thread, so I wasn’t aware of all the great feedback.

Also, I’d been posting my progress weekly before (so I would have caught all the comments sooner), but I’ve held back for the last month because there’s been no progress to post. Specifically, ampleforth mentioned that if I start cutting back on my food intake (which I did) I’ll probably start getting injured (which I also did).

I majorly messed up my groin muscle on my left leg doing squats and have barely been able to walk for the last two months. Crazy!! It was starting to get better, so I started squatting again, and then it really got bad! So, I’m off any kind of leg exercise for the rest of the year (my own decision; maybe not the right one?). The good news is that my leg is finally starting to feel a LOT better… (I’m continuing with my full upper body workout in the meantime, of course…)

I’ve also taken some other advice posted here recently, and that’s to start going easier on carbs. Actually, a couple of you mentioned this, and – who knows – this may be the key for me being able to seriously up my calorie intake (I know you guys are right about this!!) without a psychologically-devastating impact to my belly size… I’ve been doing this for just a week or so now, and already my belly fat SEEMS to be receding slightly. Also, I SEEM to be inching back toward some strength gains in the gym…

Wow, my story has really become a major soap opera, huh!! I really do appreciate all the great feedback; I really am taking it all to heart; and there’s no way on earth I’m even THINKING about backing off on the effort. Progress has been made, and more is coming, I have no doubt…

P.S. Doesn’t help that everyone is throwing fudge and cookies at me for Christmas!!! LOL…

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[quote]speakman wrote:

P.S. Doesn’t help that everyone is throwing fudge and cookies at me for Christmas!!! LOL…[/quote]

AS with all things in life, if you make a goal it helps to let those close to you know you have a goal you are trying to achieve. This will get you the emotional support you need to acheive that goal. For some reason when it comes to fitness people tend to not make their goals as known to those around them so you end up in situations where people tend to hurt your progress.