Big Challenge (I Think) for the Group

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]speakman wrote:
challer1 wrote:
Step 2 would be to stop squatting and deadlifting all the damn time. Honestly, the over 35 lifter forums exist because over 35 lifting should not train like a 20 yr old (i.e. most of this site’s population). There’s no reason you can’t pull off significant physique changes, but use your head. If you keep hurting yourself doing the same exercises, then why do you keep doing them? Because some anons on a forum are telling you to? One of these times that “pop” isn’t going to be just a strain, and no amount of test is going to get you in the mood for humpin’.

Interesting… All I read everywhere on this site (forums and articles), in Rippetoe’s book, etc., is that the two most important exercises are the squat and the deadlift. I’ll be interested to hear what the other guys say about this, though I’m definitely conscientious about the age-gap issue here on T-Nation… That said, I’ve come to really like squats and deads and suspect that I just need to tighten up my approach. Again, though, interested to hear from the other guys… I like a good war… LOL[/quote]

The big problem with consistently relying on the programs outlined by the authors is that it becomes tougher to think for yourself and gauge what YOU need at a certain point in time–all you’ve ever done is follow a template. And while squats and deads are terrific exercise IMO and the opinion of many others, incredible bodies have been built without them, or with variations of them that may have been viewed as safer by a particular trainee (ex. substituting front squats/goblet squats/hack squats, etc for back squats; trap bar DLs for Olympic bar DLs…) because of how he is built, because of previous injuries, or both.

For quick reference, can you post your current stats, workout, diet and what your goals are. I read your thread a while back and from what I remember you were doing “Starting Strength” and have been on HRT for a while. Just give us a quick update of your status so we don’t have to hunt for it.

And in the future don’t jump into your heaviest weight!!! C’mon, that’s just common friggin’ sense for anyone, much less an over 35 yo lifter with a history of back issues.

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[quote]speakman wrote:
challer1 wrote:
Step 2 would be to stop squatting and deadlifting all the damn time. Honestly, the over 35 lifter forums exist because over 35 lifting should not train like a 20 yr old (i.e. most of this site’s population). There’s no reason you can’t pull off significant physique changes, but use your head. If you keep hurting yourself doing the same exercises, then why do you keep doing them? Because some anons on a forum are telling you to? One of these times that “pop” isn’t going to be just a strain, and no amount of test is going to get you in the mood for humpin’.

Interesting… All I read everywhere on this site (forums and articles), in Rippetoe’s book, etc., is that the two most important exercises are the squat and the deadlift. I’ll be interested to hear what the other guys say about this, though I’m definitely conscientious about the age-gap issue here on T-Nation… That said, I’ve come to really like squats and deads and suspect that I just need to tighten up my approach. Again, though, interested to hear from the other guys… I like a good war… LOL[/quote]

They are great exercises, but any lifter has to make not exceeding their capacity to recover, at least in the long term, a top priority.

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Okay, here’s my latest chart.

Again, with the recurrence of my lower back sprain (though, again, doesn’t seem to be nearly as severe as last time), I’ll be backing down on some of these numbers (deadlift, and probably squat and bent-over rows) on my return to the gym (next Monday; I’ll be kayaking on Catalina Island the rest of this week)… Bummer about backing down on my recent gains, but what choice do I have?

That said, hopefully the group can see the effort I’ve been making… Quite a few of you really got on me about not pushing myself hard enough with the weights, so (with the help of my testosterone and HGH shots, no doubt about it!!!) I have in fact pushed to new thresholds.

Obviously, I got a little too anxious to cross the 200 line on my deadlifts, but no big deal. My plan is to continue doing these, but maybe I’ll just have to stick with the high sets/reps scheme more than trying to get to 300 on the weight (feedback on this plan??)…

As for my current diet, I’m also taking recent advice and eating more than I have since I was a fatty (many years ago). I’m in the range of 2500 to 3000 calories a day; 200 grams protein; easy on the carbs; virtually no wheat or dairy. Shockingly, I’m not packing on the flab like I feared. I have to credit my T and HGH shots here again, but I also have to credit the wisdom and experience of the guys who have convinced me that I need to EAT!! Oh, also running 4 miles, 3 days per week (shouldn’t be afraid of a little cardio, right?)…

I’ve minimized my supplements quite a bit. I’m down to Metabolic Drive (including peri-workout; I swear Surge was contributing to my flabby gut); BCAA’s; and Creatine (only in my peri-workout drink).

So, how am I doing? :slight_smile:

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Looks like you got a bit of a kick in the ass for the last couple weeks. Do not stop. Remember, if your reps/weight aren’t getting progressively better every passing week (at this stage at least) you basically wasted an entire week. Always strive to better yourself every workout. Don’t be static.

Eat clean, but do not worry too much about flab at the moment. Worry about getting stronger. Eat to get stronger, that’s all you have to do right now. Don’t really know why you’re running 4 miles though, that’s alot of cardio. If it’s hurting your lifting days, then you have to stop, unless your goal is to be a long distance runner. There are more intellegent ways to stay in good cardiovascular shape/get lean.

Personally I’d be knocking back Flameouts/Fish Oils before BCAAs. Everything else looks alright, Surge isn’t going to make or break you.

You’re doing okay.

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[quote]speakman wrote:

That said, hopefully the group can see the effort I’ve been making… [/quote]

No. I can’t. A grown man struggling to move 200 pounds off the fucking floor . lack of testosterone is not the problem here.

Nope. The weights do not go up magically…YOU HAVE TO INCREASE THEM EVERY SESSION!!!

3000 calories a day sounds good.

Who the fuck gave you this advice? you’re going to need to feed your body carbs and protein in the PWO window.

Please read Berardi’s “solving the post workout puzzle”. you need a TIMED carb diet not a keto or anabolic diet or whatever. Limit your starchy or non-green carbs to the 2 hours post LIFTING and possibly breakfast. Read whatever Lonnie Lowery says about nutrition.

[b]

gee

  • 3000 cals a day
  • running 4 miles a day
  • lifting without intensity
  • no carbs post workout.

oh yea,… there’s a recipe for sure fire muscle gain RIGHT THERE.[/b]

[quote]
I swear Surge was contributing to my flabby gut)[/quote]

No. you were lifting with NO intensity and that was contributing to your flabby gut. Lift with intensity and you earn that load of carbs…

lifti without intensity AND avoid PWO carbs = (SEE MY LAST PARAGRAPH)

So, how am I doing? :)[/quote]

you’re wasting your time. find a new hobby or keep writing long effeminate replies peppered liberally with "LOL"s and ":)"s for the next 2 years. No training advice will do you any good till you start behaving like a man, as sappy as that sounds.

Vaya con dios.

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[quote]speakman wrote:
Okay, here’s my latest chart.

Again, with the recurrence of my lower back sprain (though, again, doesn’t seem to be nearly as severe as last time), I’ll be backing down on some of these numbers (deadlift, and probably squat and bent-over rows) on my return to the gym (next Monday; I’ll be kayaking on Catalina Island the rest of this week)… Bummer about backing down on my recent gains, but what choice do I have?

That said, hopefully the group can see the effort I’ve been making… Quite a few of you really got on me about not pushing myself hard enough with the weights, so (with the help of my testosterone and HGH shots, no doubt about it!!!) I have in fact pushed to new thresholds.

Obviously, I got a little too anxious to cross the 200 line on my deadlifts, but no big deal. My plan is to continue doing these, but maybe I’ll just have to stick with the high sets/reps scheme more than trying to get to 300 on the weight (feedback on this plan??)…

As for my current diet, I’m also taking recent advice and eating more than I have since I was a fatty (many years ago). I’m in the range of 2500 to 3000 calories a day; 200 grams protein; easy on the carbs; virtually no wheat or dairy. Shockingly, I’m not packing on the flab like I feared. I have to credit my T and HGH shots here again, but I also have to credit the wisdom and experience of the guys who have convinced me that I need to EAT!! Oh, also running 4 miles, 3 days per week (shouldn’t be afraid of a little cardio, right?)…

I’ve minimized my supplements quite a bit. I’m down to Metabolic Drive (including peri-workout; I swear Surge was contributing to my flabby gut); BCAA’s; and Creatine (only in my peri-workout drink).

So, how am I doing? :)[/quote]

You’ve given us a ton of information but you fail to mention what you’re trying to accomplish and where you are now in terms of your bodyweight and bodyfat. How can we weigh in on how you’re doing if we don’t know what you’re goals are and where you currently are?

And for the record, I don’t think you got over anxious on increasing the deadlift weight. You’re trying to lift your heaviest weight without warming up.

I also think Tribunaldude is spot on–pay attention to that post.

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No offense… but I am pretty sure women can make faster progress without testosterone and HGH…

I don’t think that’s your problem…

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[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
gee

  • 3000 cals a day
  • running 4 miles a day
  • lifting without intensity
  • no carbs post workout.

oh yea,… there’s a recipe for sure fire muscle gain RIGHT THERE.[/quote]

  • Is 3000 calories a day not enough? That’s about 1000 calories a day more than I was getting a couple of months ago, until a poster (thought it was you) told me to eat more. 3000 still not enough? Then how many?

  • I didn’t say I run 4 miles a day. I said I run 4 miles, three days a week (my non-lifting days). I’d cut out cardio for awhile, but started to get fat pretty fast. Then a couple of months ago I read an article on this site (I think by Poliquin) that said that lifters should still get cardio. Even with the cardio my strength has been increasing over the last couple of months, but without the flab. What are you recommending? That I drop the cardio completely again?

  • Have no idea what you mean by “lifting without intensity”. A couple of months ago, you nailed me for not lifting with enough intensity, so I immediately increased my sets from 3 to 6 and have SERIOUSLY worked to add pounds to my lifts. My latest chart clearly shows that I’ve been getting stronger, at least on my squat and deadlift. What’s with the “lifting without intensity” comment? Trying to follow your advice, but now I’m confused.

  • I never said I don’t get carbs PWO. I’ll probably get flamed for this, but for the last couple of months I’ve actually been grabbing a double hamburger (no cheese, no sauce except mustard) on the way to the gym; drinking a Metabolic Drive shake w/creatine peri-workout; then grabbing a full meal (protein [maybe an 8-ounce steak], vegetables, starchy carbs) within an hour or two after lifting. Not perfect, I’m sure, but definitely lots of protein, carbs, fats and calories.

The advice from you guys has been great, and I THOUGHT it was starting to pay off… A 20-25% improvement in my squat and deadlift in one month seemed encouraging to me…

249

Lower back “injury” wasn’t so bad after all, it seems. I’m back at 205 on deadlift, doing 205 on squat, and ready to push these and a couple of other lifts up this week. Starting with warm-up sets now, of course.

3000 calories/day, and don’t seem to be adding to flab around the middle at all…

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Good job on adding weight to the bar. Just remember to keep doing so! And ALWAYS warm up. If you don’t have time to warm up, you don’t have time to lift heavy (especially with your injuries!). Have you added any muscle in the last month?

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[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
No offense… but I am pretty sure women can make faster progress without testosterone and HGH…

I don’t think that’s your problem…[/quote]

weeeeeeeeee

have a winner.

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[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
krazykoukides wrote:
No offense… but I am pretty sure women can make faster progress without testosterone and HGH…

I don’t think that’s your problem…

weeeeeeeeee

have a winner.[/quote]

Nathan: You harped for months that my “problem” was that I was following Stronghold’s advice and that I was following Rippetoe’s program. Everybody flamed you pretty good for that!! And now you want to jump on the “you’re just a loser and should quit” bandwagon? Thanks for the laugh.

Seriously, your advice to me previously was to forget the 3x5 routine from Rippetoe and follow your 3x12 routine (am I remembering this correctly?). Well, Rippetoe’s program got me a long way (I’m lifting considerably more now than I was then), and I actually moved on from his program months ago. I’m now doing more like 6x8 or 6x10 on everything, and I’ve changed up the exercises somewhat. Still making progress, if slow…

Also, it occurs to me that you, like a lot of the guys passing around the insults recently, are probably just in your 20’s. I’m in my 40’s. Maybe it’s a different ballgame for me entirely. I appreciate the advice and help here a lot, but, really, sometimes it’s hard to take all of you guys seriously… Most of the guys on T-Nation, but not all of you!!

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No offense, that probably makes you f*cking stupid.

254

Speakman, it is good that you have made a little progress and have at least stuck with it. But fear of injuries and fear of flab are really holding you back. You will have to conquer those intelligently if you want to make significant progress.

Fear of injury is a terrible handicap, and here’s why. If you set up to squat but subconsciously fear getting injured, you won’t go all out in your set, so you won’t make much if any progress in your strength or physique. Yet by squatting AT ALL, you certainly risk more injury than if you had never stepped foot in the gym. So you really get the worst of both worlds – increased risk of injury, yet little to no strength or physique improvement to show for it.

The solution to this is to FIX the problems that are making you weak and susceptible to injury in the first place. Some things are weak, some are tight, some are inhibited, some are overactive, etc. And your core strength and stability probably suck and limit all your lifts.

You’re over 40 and have a real job (I presume), so why mess around? Time is more valuable than money now. Start directing your research to finding a good trainer who will do a functional movement screen, direct you to the movements and stretches that will fix you up, and teach you the right technique on your lifts. Look at LondonRunner’s thread about his trip to see Bushidobadboy as an example of what to look for. And get some competent soft-tissue work done. I tell you, when you’re over 40, have a history of injuries, and sit in front of a computer for hours, it’s a no-brainer that stretching, soft tissue work, mobility work, proper warming up, and good form (that lowers risk of injury) are critical.

Meanwhile, learn as much as you can so that you will be able to distinguish the few good trainers from the many idiot ones. Pick up Stuart McGill’s Ultimate Back Fitness, Cressey and Robertson’s Maximum Mobility, read all the articles by Cressey, find the good threads on back injuries, and study all the articles on squat and deadlift form. Video your own form and compare.

It’s also a huge mistake to avoid the Over 35 forum here. Your two biggest issues are injuries and HRT, and there are experts in both regularly helping people out there. You’ll also find that the regularly-updated threads (logs) are from people who are serious about lifting heavy. One I can think of off the top of my head is rehabbing significant injuries (JoeGood). Maraudermeat has a thread where you can post a video of your lifts, and he’ll advise you on your form. KSman helps guys like you get their TRT dialed in, which is no simple task.

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[quote]andersons wrote:
Speakman, it is good that you have made a little progress and have at least stuck with it. But fear of injuries and fear of flab are really holding you back. You will have to conquer those intelligently if you want to make significant progress.[/quote]

Thanks for offering some very useful feedback! Thanks to the advice of tribunaldude and others on here, I’ve finally gotten it through my head that I need to EAT and I need to add weight to the bar!

I’m now eating more food than I have in many years (2500+ calories/day, fairly clean). I’m also really working hard to push past my mental barriers and add weight and intensity to my lifts. (Details later…)

As for your specific suggestions, I’m digesting those right now. Admittedly, I’ve been avoiding the “Over 35 Lifter” forum because I’ve been concerned that I might be encouraged to “take it easy” which will just reinforce everything that’s been holding me back. Maybe not… After I post this, I’ll head over there to take a look around…

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[quote]speakman wrote:
Invictica, this gets me to your point… I don’t think I can reasonably deny what you’re saying. Of course, I FEEL like I’m working out intensely: I always seem to go to “failure” on every exercise (maybe even every set); short of sickness or injury, I never miss a workout; and by the end of every workout I’m panting and sweating like I just ran a marathon. That said, I am 41 years old, have had enough little injuries to make me at least subconsciously cautious while I’m lifting, and have also had two major inguinal hernia operations (one at 17 years old, the other just a few years ago). So, maybe I haven’t been giving it 100% in the gym…

[/quote]

Been off the forums for a long time, but the above seems to be your issue. If you are going to “failure” almost every set, that means you do not know what intensity is relative to lifting weights. How many sets and how many exercises are you doing in a workout? Sounds like you need some rack pulls and bench pressing off of pins. You need to feel “heavy” weight in your hands. There is no reason that a grown man who has been lifting for more then a few months can’t deadlift at least 200 pounds.

You may want to even try only doing one excercise a workout. Do 2 or three increasin warmup sets and then 1 all out set in the 6-8 range. Some people leave too much in the tank if they know that they are going onto another excercise.

Hope that helps a little

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[quote]BookerT wrote:
Been off the forums for a long time, but the above seems to be your issue. If you are going to “failure” almost every set, that means you do not know what intensity is relative to lifting weights. How many sets and how many exercises are you doing in a workout? Sounds like you need some rack pulls and bench pressing off of pins. You need to feel “heavy” weight in your hands. There is no reason that a grown man who has been lifting for more then a few months can’t deadlift at least 200 pounds.[/quote]

I was doing Rippetoe’s program for a long time (almost a year, starting in April of last year), which meant five exercises per workout; 3 sets of 5 reps each. A few months ago, based on feedback from the group here, I increased everything to 6 sets with variable reps (8 to 10 reps for warm-up sets, up to 2 or 3 reps for the heaviest sets). For the record, I’m now up to 215 on my deadlift and 225 on squats. Seem to be moving in the right direction…

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Never heard of it until this thread. I still think your problem is that you don’t know what heavy weight is and you don’t know what real intensity means. Not trying to bash you, just being honest. The rackpull and bench pressing from pins suggestion is to force you to lift heavier weights. If you can deadlift 215 from the floor, you should easily be able to rack pull 325 from your knees.

Do a few set’s of those. After a few workouts, the 215 from the floor will feel light. The same principle will work with the press from the pins. You need to learn what “heavy” feels like. As long as you limit yourself to the weights you are using now, you will never progress.

I’m not saying that the process above will work forever, but it should help a beginner to understand that you can do a lot more then you think.

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[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Yes, get your squat and DL up to about 315, whatever time it takes. Your bench is too high, or the others are too low.[/quote]

Up to 225 on both the deadlift and squat now… 315 doesn’t look as unattainable as it did when you said I should aim for this… Maybe I just needed a specific number to shoot for!

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[quote]speakman wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
Yes, get your squat and DL up to about 315, whatever time it takes. Your bench is too high, or the others are too low.

Up to 225 on both the deadlift and squat now… 315 doesn’t look as unattainable as it did when you said I should aim for this… Maybe I just needed a specific number to shoot for![/quote]

Good job man, keep on trucking. Gradual, consistent progress adds up to big time gains in the long run!