big diff between pullups and pulldowns…try it…
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
I’m sorry, but lat pull downs are completely inferior to pull-ups and chins; any real strength training coach will tell you that. Peak and mean muscle activation is much higher in pull-ups and chins - Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises
Quit being lazy and do pull ups. Lat pull downs aren’t even the same motion; you are pulling something towards you, rather than pulling yourself towards something. Pull downs don’t even have carry over to pull-up strength… When has a machine cable exercise ever been better than a free weight exercise? This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy?
[/quote]
This MVC stuff is interesting, and yeah we are in the PL forum, but i dont think we can ignore just bow many big BBers prefer pulldowns to chins. What some folks are saying is having a big back as well as a strong back is useful in PL, and i would agree with that.
That said if i was only allowed to do 4 movements it would be the big three and chins.[/quote]
I guess I just look at what’s going to be the best bang for my buck, and pull-ups/chins work a lot more muscle groups, so I think they’re better. BBers also prefer a lot of things in which I don’t really feel is relevant to strength training. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy doesn’t concern me the same way myofibrillar hypertrophy does.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy? [/quote]
Because at some point that size is going to give you a better base from which to move bigger weights from. It ain’t rocket science. Size absolutely matters in this case.
Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger. Rows (bent over and Pendlay style) have done much more for my back than pull ups did. But ymmv.
james
[/quote]
Exactly how does sarcoplasmic hypertrophy have a significant effect on maximal strength in the back? Plenty of athletes have built huge bases off of pull-ups/chins using strength training, not body building moves.
“Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger.”
So… This base that needs to be stronger, won’t be affected by something that worked for you to make your base(back) stronger? I’m really confused by your logic.
Rows are also a completely different move, which I hadn’t commented on whatsoever; they, being free-weights, I am all for, and feel should be a part of any strength athletes routine. Both bilateral and unilateral rows and excellent for building lat, posterior deltoid, traps, etc.
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy doesn’t concern me the same way myofibrillar hypertrophy does. [/quote]
Something tells me you’ve got neither and I’m not simply trying to be a dick. Guys who talk this rarely have any experience at all and say this crap just because it’s what they’ve read somewhere.
I used to think the same way but I realize that I need to put on more size in some areas (like my legs) in order to move bigger weights. That means using rep schemes and exercises that BBers use because they know how to get bigger body parts.
I think I read where you wanted to do your first competition. Do it. Seriously. It gives your training and the methods that you use purpose and you no longer care about much of what you read on the internet and it strictly becomes about results.
james
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy doesn’t concern me the same way myofibrillar hypertrophy does. [/quote]
Something tells me you’ve got neither and I’m not simply trying to be a dick. Guys who talk this rarely have any experience at all and say this crap just because it’s what they’ve read somewhere.
I used to think the same way but I realize that I need to put on more size in some areas (like my legs) in order to move bigger weights. That means using rep schemes and exercises that BBers use because they know how to get bigger body parts.
I think I read where you wanted to do your first competition. Do it. Seriously. It gives your training and the methods that you use purpose and you no longer care about much of what you read on the internet and it strictly becomes about results.
james
[/quote]
You’re not being a dick; you’re being ignorant by generalizing. I must be small because I have accurate information on something… Right, because smart training never got anyone anywhere.
I lifted for a few years with the body builder mindset, and then injured myself. I moved into strength training, and in the last 9 months I’ve made more gains than I did in the years I spent wasting my time on machines. I could do less than 10 pull-ups when I started; now I can do 100 in under 15 minutes, and do 1 rep with 90lbs added at a 200lb body weight. Might not be the strongest person in the world, but it’s a lot of damn progress. Why can’t I add size and strength through weighted and non-weighted? Depending if I want volume(size) or maximal effort(strength)? In the mean time I’m working all the other extra muscles that the lat pull down does not. These aren’t things I’ve just read, it’s a part of my every day life. I don’t base my opinion off articles and books(though they are very useful), I use my experience as a lifter.
Thanks for all the info guys, as of right now my back exercises look like this ( including sets/reps )
mon- HS rows, 3x12/3x15/4x12/4x15 once a week and the workout is spread over a month
fri. seated cable rows ( V handle and long bar,switch each set) 3x12/4x12/3x15/5x15
lat pull down- 3x12/4x12/3x15/4x15
I’m not a big fan of pull ups my shoulder always feels like shit after them. But with the whole disc thing going on, those are the best ones I know of that puts no pressure on my spine
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
I could do less than 10 pull-ups when I started; now I can do 100 in under 15 minutes, and do 1 rep with 90lbs added at a 200lb body weight. [/quote]
That is great pull up progress. Has it directly impacted your bench press, your deadlift, or your squat? I ask because that’s all that really matters. At least in this sub-forum.
james
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
I could do less than 10 pull-ups when I started; now I can do 100 in under 15 minutes, and do 1 rep with 90lbs added at a 200lb body weight. [/quote]
That is great pull up progress. Has it directly impacted your bench press, your deadlift, or your squat? I ask because that’s all that really matters. At least in this sub-forum.
james
[/quote]
I believe so 100%, allowing me to have more strength in my back has positively impacted all of my lifts, as the back is a huge part of all three lifts. My bench is much higher than it’s ever been, just the same as my squat and deadlift. I can retract my scapula much tighter than ever before, and my lats are much more stable in both pressing and pulling.
I’m still at a loss that I’m being scrutinized for believing that a pull-up is a better movement.
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
I’m still at a loss that I’m being scrutinized for believing that a pull-up is a better movement.
[/quote]
Way too common a thing in internet discussions. Is a pull up a better strength movement? Id say yes. Id wager a lot of people would agree. Is a pulldown a better movement for lat size? Lot of people say it is. Basically splitting hairs about it.
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
I’m still at a loss that I’m being scrutinized for believing that a pull-up is a better movement.
[/quote]
Because it’s not a competitive lift so who cares besides a bunch of crossfitters? The most important thing is what gives you the best results for what you’re looking to do. If it adds to your total then great. If not then find another movement that will. It’s that simple really. And what’s good for you isn’t necessarily good for everyone else.
james
Well I’ll just keep doing pull-ups then.
To the OP, good luck with making your back stronger, regardless of the route you choose.
Lot of advice, not a whole lot of ‘results pics’
I has a sad.
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy? [/quote]
Because at some point that size is going to give you a better base from which to move bigger weights from. It ain’t rocket science. Size absolutely matters in this case.
Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger. Rows (bent over and Pendlay style) have done much more for my back than pull ups did. But ymmv.
james
[/quote]
Exactly how does sarcoplasmic hypertrophy have a significant effect on maximal strength in the back? Plenty of athletes have built huge bases off of pull-ups/chins using strength training, not body building moves.
“Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger.”
So… This base that needs to be stronger, won’t be affected by something that worked for you to make your base(back) stronger? I’m really confused by your logic.
Rows are also a completely different move, which I hadn’t commented on whatsoever; they, being free-weights, I am all for, and feel should be a part of any strength athletes routine. Both bilateral and unilateral rows and excellent for building lat, posterior deltoid, traps, etc.
[/quote]
What are your lifts like?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Lot of advice, not a whole lot of ‘results pics’
I has a sad.[/quote]
Here ya go.
My go tos are dumbbell rows and all manner of chins. Just started some t-bar rows as well. I’ve been going ultra high volume these days.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy? [/quote]
Because at some point that size is going to give you a better base from which to move bigger weights from. It ain’t rocket science. Size absolutely matters in this case.
Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger. Rows (bent over and Pendlay style) have done much more for my back than pull ups did. But ymmv.
james
[/quote]
Exactly how does sarcoplasmic hypertrophy have a significant effect on maximal strength in the back? Plenty of athletes have built huge bases off of pull-ups/chins using strength training, not body building moves.
“Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger.”
So… This base that needs to be stronger, won’t be affected by something that worked for you to make your base(back) stronger? I’m really confused by your logic.
Rows are also a completely different move, which I hadn’t commented on whatsoever; they, being free-weights, I am all for, and feel should be a part of any strength athletes routine. Both bilateral and unilateral rows and excellent for building lat, posterior deltoid, traps, etc.
[/quote]
What are your lifts like?
[/quote]
squat - 365
deadlift - 465
bench - 285
@198lbs
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy? [/quote]
Because at some point that size is going to give you a better base from which to move bigger weights from. It ain’t rocket science. Size absolutely matters in this case.
Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger. Rows (bent over and Pendlay style) have done much more for my back than pull ups did. But ymmv.
james
[/quote]
Exactly how does sarcoplasmic hypertrophy have a significant effect on maximal strength in the back? Plenty of athletes have built huge bases off of pull-ups/chins using strength training, not body building moves.
“Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger.”
So… This base that needs to be stronger, won’t be affected by something that worked for you to make your base(back) stronger? I’m really confused by your logic.
Rows are also a completely different move, which I hadn’t commented on whatsoever; they, being free-weights, I am all for, and feel should be a part of any strength athletes routine. Both bilateral and unilateral rows and excellent for building lat, posterior deltoid, traps, etc.
[/quote]
What are your lifts like?
[/quote]
squat - 365
deadlift - 465
bench - 285
@198lbs[/quote]
At this point, I don’t think you should have anything decided. Try out a lot more stuff and see what it will do for you. Getting stuck in your ways now is just going to hinder you.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]ImaMonsta wrote:
This is the powerlifting section, right? Isn’t strength more relevant than size? Who cares if you’ve got more hypertrophy? [/quote]
Because at some point that size is going to give you a better base from which to move bigger weights from. It ain’t rocket science. Size absolutely matters in this case.
Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger. Rows (bent over and Pendlay style) have done much more for my back than pull ups did. But ymmv.
james
[/quote]
Exactly how does sarcoplasmic hypertrophy have a significant effect on maximal strength in the back? Plenty of athletes have built huge bases off of pull-ups/chins using strength training, not body building moves.
“Pull ups (even weighted ones where I got to BW +100lbs) never really did much for my back besides make it stronger.”
So… This base that needs to be stronger, won’t be affected by something that worked for you to make your base(back) stronger? I’m really confused by your logic.
Rows are also a completely different move, which I hadn’t commented on whatsoever; they, being free-weights, I am all for, and feel should be a part of any strength athletes routine. Both bilateral and unilateral rows and excellent for building lat, posterior deltoid, traps, etc.
[/quote]
What are your lifts like?
[/quote]
squat - 365
deadlift - 465
bench - 285
@198lbs[/quote]
At this point, I don’t think you should have anything decided. Try out a lot more stuff and see what it will do for you. Getting stuck in your ways now is just going to hinder you.[/quote]
I agree. You have some solid numbers but I think if you play around with other exercises, you will only see your numbers increase. You can do a lot of pull-ups, I’ll give you that, but if you backed off of those for a bit and focused in some more rowing, all three lifts would increase. Just my opinion though
^^^^^
Agreed. Rows build a really good back for powerlifting. Thats why even tho I am capable of a significant amount of pull-ups, I usually end up doing lat pulldowns… I am already really tired from the rowing volume.
Besides which, some people find that chins/pull ups hurt their elbows when battling tendonitis. I certainly find this. Therefore they become less than optimal because they hinder my ability to put a lot of volume down, and/or bench heavy. Same reason I don’t do skullcrushers often…great movement, IF it doesnt aggravate you.
And to the poster going on about sarcoplasmic vs. myofibrillar hypertrophy, I think you would be well served by looking into some of the research. It is not the situation you seem to have been misinformed about. Much less clear cut, and in fact I tend to believe while the theory of pure sarcoplasmic hypertrophy might be attractive to some, it is really only a nice theory at this point.
I do rows… Bent-over rows, Pendlay rows, single arm rows, inverted rows, seated cable rows, face pulls, band pull aparts, etc. I don’t do Yates rows, nor do I do Kroc rows.
Both vertical and horizontal pulls are trained virtually equally. I am stronger in a vertical pull than horizontal though.
I appreciate the support and the notion to keep my mind open in training. I’ll probably continue to do pull-ups instead, and the occasional pull down after some heavy pull/chin ups to further tax the lats.