Better Than the Best

Off Topic
161

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
We don’t have to look any further than Vic Richards. The guy chose not to lead a life of competitive bodybuilding but was too big not to notice to this very day. If one is truly that great at something, they WILL GET NOTICED. True greatness doesn’t “fall through the cracks”.[/quote]

?

I remember people claiming back in the day that Vic could never be the best because it was never proven on stage. They claimed he never dieted down so we could never know how well he could have done.

But here you are now claiming he could have held up very well with the greats on stage.

You are assuming/speculating. You may be making a very good assumption, but since he never did it, you can’t say for sure. There isn’t ONE pro trophy in his shelf at all. (sound familiar)

He was well known in bodybuilding circles because he made himself well known and people took notice. He didn’t avoid going to shows. He even did guest posings (at the shows other bodybuilders were competing in) and supplement ads for his own company. He was out there in the media (even starting a clothing company) so using him as if someone just randomly found him because he was so huge is false.

That isn’t what happened at all and that isn’t why he is so well known.

162

I think people arguing against MJ GOAT are missing the point.

YES MJ GOAT but why - his desire and focus made him that. But what I see people saying is that his althletic ability is unmatched by any other players. Seriously??? - Even when MJ was playing there was a player by the name of Dominique Wilkins - same if not better athletic talent.

The argument for streetballer is that there are those that posess similar athletic talent - that have the potential to be as good or better than MJ.

163

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
We don’t have to look any further than Vic Richards. The guy chose not to lead a life of competitive bodybuilding but was too big not to notice to this very day. If one is truly that great at something, they WILL GET NOTICED. True greatness doesn’t “fall through the cracks”.[/quote]

?

I remember people claiming back in the day that Vic could never be the best because it was never proven on stage. They claimed he never dieted down so we could never know how well he could have done.

But here you are now claiming he could have held up very well with the greats on stage.

You are assuming/speculating. You may be making a very good assumption, but since he never did it, you can’t say for sure. There isn’t ONE pro trophy in his shelf at all.

He was well known in bodybuilding circles because he made himself well known and people took notice. He didn’t avoid going to shows. He even did guest posings (at the shows other bodybuilders were competing in) and supplement ads for his own company. He was out there in the media (even starting a clothing company) so using him as if someone just randomly found him because he was so huge is false.

That isn’t what happened at all and that isn’t why he is so well known.

[/quote]

I’m not making any assumptions on how well he would have done in pro shows. He may not have done well at all, the point was that when someone is that big, they will be noticed.

Fair point, though, about him “marketing” himself to some extent.

164

[quote]kothreat wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
No matter how good you are, there’s always someone better.

Eventually.[/quote]

They are really arguing against this. Truly ridiculous.[/quote]

Until there is some evidence of some random dude being better than MJ or some other stud anyone opposing the majority view point is arguing in hypothetical situations, when we are arguing with facts. [/quote]

Youtube wasn’t always around. Considering some of you take the word of pro athletes who commented about another player to be false, no one could ever provide proof. Like someone wrote about the Negro League, there is no way in hell we even know about all of the truly best at all sport endeavors throughout even the last 100 years.[/quote]

1 pro athlete said that guy was the goat, how many say the same about MJ? Doesn’t that massive amount of support from not just average joes but nba studs for Jordan to be goat mean something? [/quote]

? Is the issue here that we used Michael’s name at all? The point is that there are people with great potential and great abilities that you may never know about. If you are arguing that, something is wrong with you.

Everyone who has the potential to be great or is great at bench pressing will not automatically end up in strongman contests or on ESPN.

Either way, that will be my last post in this thread. It seems to always be the same guys and if I had to guess, most of T-Nation isn’t proud of it.[/quote]

This isn’t even the argument, way to side step it as usual.

We aren’t arguing against there being randoms with great potential/abilities we don’t know about. We are arguing that A NATURAL LIFTER is not breaking every bench/incline press record KNOWN TO MAN done by assisted lifters. Jesus Christ.

[/quote]

Actually we are arguing that there are randos out there with great abilities we don’t know about.

As quoted from the op:

[quote]Background - it seems some members of this site seem to think there are members of society walking around that are better than the best of all time. Regular street ball players that are better than Michael Jordan. Powerlifters (w/o videos) with better lifts than world record holders, etc.

Continue discussion.[/quote]
[/quote]

Dude are you fucking retarded? Seriously.

The OP says “better than the best of all time”.

165

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Last Post:
That ignore feature is fucking awesome.

Suddenly all of the dumb just disappeared.[/quote]

You have got to be the most delusional, condescending and illogical person on this site. You get proven wrong time and again and when making shit up that has nothing to do with what’s going on stops working for you, you just ignore people so you can continue to feel “right”. Good luck with that.[/quote]

I wish we had a facebook type “Like” function.

166

Hai Guyz, steroidz make the muskles look different.

167

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I compare this thread to the recent (and other) “Is there life in the universe other than on Earth?”.

Some have (and will) argue that “the math” says there must be life in the universe. It’s so vast. How can we be so closed minded? How can we possibly know without having combed the entire universe.

Some of those people have posted in this and other threads absolutely convinced that no one (outside of some sanctioned, recorded competition) can press more than current record holders (who by a series of decisions and events have competed in sanctioned, recorded events).

Vast universe and only one planet with life, but there MUST be life elsewhere (even though there is absolutely no evidence or means to explore or even a definite knowledge of how life could be supported)

BUT

6+ BILLION (near 7 BILLION) people on the Earth (currently, not including past) and not one could possibly be stronger or have ever been stronger than the current record holder (even though that feat of strength is only tangentially correlated with another feat of strength- eg. flat bench v. incline bench) anywhere at any time on the face of the planet ever.

[/quote]

Once again, missing the point. Stop generalizing, we are talking specifics.

A natural lifter is claiming to lift the same weight for at least 3x the reps as the strongest DRUG ASSISTED lifters on the face of the earth all the while weighing at least 50 lbs less.

168

The funny thing is that the people who are agreeing with LHW are expanding the argument because they refuse to admit he’s full of shit. This is the equivalent of saying that there is some random natural bodybuilder out there who could not only defeat Ronnie Coleman in his prime for the Olympia title but absolutely crush him.

LOL

169

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

Because if someone has that natural ability they will (most likely) be driven to it.[/quote]

Bullshit. That may happen in many cases, but not all. There will always be that guy with the talent who lacks the desire…or the guy with the talent who chooses another pursuit.

[/quote]

Hence the “(most likely)” still waiting for some proof of these outlandish claims

170

Also, those arguing in favor of there being some random stud out there, your entire argument is based on massive IFS, and I personally, dont see much logic in arguing ifs vs. facts but if yall want to keep going like this I can go all day.

171

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

I never said that their coaching was typical.

Do you think that there were/are other highschool kids out there with just as good and better training than what Kobe and Howard got? Why arent they in the NBA dominating those two? (let me answer my own question here cause its pretty rhetorical… the answer is TALENT)
[/quote]

Question for you, Greg…since you seem to be one of the few who has the ability to discuss this without the crap I am seeing lately with a few others…but why would you even assume that some kid with no ties to the sport (formally) in a small town without the guidance would receive “just as good and better training” as anyone who made it to the NBA?

Isn’t that the point? That some people CAN slip through the cracks? They obviously WOULDN’T get “just as good and better training”. They would possibly get NO training.[/quote]

I believe that people can slip through the cracks… (small town without the guidance type of thing) but I do not believe that someone with the potential to be the greatest of all time would slip through the cracks. That sort of raw talent and athleticism would result in some attention. Maybe it wouldnt be fore basketball but it would be for something else.

172

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
We don’t have to look any further than Vic Richards. The guy chose not to lead a life of competitive bodybuilding but was too big not to notice to this very day. If one is truly that great at something, they WILL GET NOTICED. True greatness doesn’t “fall through the cracks”.[/quote]

I didnt see this post before I responded to X in my last post… but this is what I believe also.

True greatness (not just “good enough” but GREAT/best of all time) wont slip through the cracks because the lack of coaching at a younger age IMO

173

OK BUT IN ALL SERIOUSNESS:

No one commented on my clam picture/post? Or the one about superman wanting to challenge kothreat in a game of Trivial Pursuit? weeeeak

that shit was funny

174

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

Because if someone has that natural ability they will (most likely) be driven to it.[/quote]

Bullshit. That may happen in many cases, but not all. There will always be that guy with the talent who lacks the desire…or the guy with the talent who chooses another pursuit.

[/quote]

Hence the “(most likely)” still waiting for some proof of these outlandish claims[/quote]

Outlandish claims? Like “it is possible for someone to exist with great talent and NOT be thrown into pro sports”? Claims like that?

Yeah, I can see how outlandish that is.

175

[quote]gregron wrote:
OK BUT IN ALL SERIOUSNESS:

No one commented on my clam picture/post? Or the one about superman wanting to challenge kothreat in a game of Trivial Pursuit? weeeeak

that shit was funny[/quote]

Greg have you missed what this thread is really about? While on the surface you may think this is a fun discussion it is not.

176

neelydan left for a few months and came back to see the professor the the bouncer at odds with each other?

SAME TEAM SAME DREAM GUYS COME ON, HEADS IN THE GAME

177

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
LWH - sorry for moving away from your thread but some of this stuff is just BS.

2 points and I’m out.

Most of you are fairly young and live in an age where you think everything is Youtube and media ready and so you use that as a point of reference for reality. Not everyone that is big and strong has a desire to lift competitively. Some people actually just like to lift and its recreational.

That said, just because someone in a competitition is listed as the best doesn’t mean there isn’t someone out there better. I incline 315 8-12 reps and honestly- it doesnt hit my pecs because I’m shoulder dominant in all my pressing excercises. Its not difficult for me to believe that a man bigger than me can move a couple more hundy.

As for the PRO sports references - most of those comments are just crazy. I grew up in Chicago and watched MJ play every chance I got. He’s not doing anything more phenominal than any other NBA player today. He was just ahead of his time. Have any of you seen the AND 1 mixtapes - those dudes are sick - and there are sicker ones in the street.

Talent alone doesn’t get you to the pro level. Pro players develop under skilled systems and coaches. Flaws are worked out. They understand playbooks and team concepts. They get vouched for. - Truely, is this any different than a corporate job? I know we all want to believe that if we work hard and are the brightest than you will get rewarded but who you know plays a very imporatant part.[/quote]

This is easily one of the dumbest things ever written.[/quote]

X1000.

And1 players compared to NBA players is like comparing a fire cracker to a hand grenade. One is all flash, and the other is fucking for real.

As for the last paragraph: unless you think “skilled systems and coaches” exist at the high school level, please explain to me Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc etc etc. Not one played college basketball, where they would have had access to elite-level programs and coaches.

And guess what? Every inner-city baller in Harlem or wherever else can go to high school, just like these guys did. And yet I don’t see all these streetballers, who do play in high school, even get recruited by colleges. Hell, if you’ve ever seen any of the Rucker Park videos, there’s guys there that star on the playgrounds that WERE former college players. I remember one in particular that was a 2-year starter on a full ride at Iona. Obviously a very good player, but a 2-year starter at a mid-major is light years away from an NBA player. Light years.

If there are any NBA-talent-level streetballers, we’ve heard of them. Earl the Goat. Fly Williams. Pee Wee Kirkland (who was drafted). Rafer Alston.

Some of you have no concept just how fucking good an NBA player is.

178

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
The funny thing is that the people who are agreeing with LHW are expanding the argument because they refuse to admit he’s full of shit. This is the equivalent of saying that there is some random natural bodybuilder out there who could not only defeat Ronnie Coleman in his prime for the Olympia title but absolutely crush him.

LOL[/quote]

Still waiting for one of the proponents of this nonsense to tell me that the above scenario could/would happen.

179

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]kothreat wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
No matter how good you are, there’s always someone better.

Eventually.[/quote]

They are really arguing against this. Truly ridiculous.[/quote]

Until there is some evidence of some random dude being better than MJ or some other stud anyone opposing the majority view point is arguing in hypothetical situations, when we are arguing with facts. [/quote]

Youtube wasn’t always around. Considering some of you take the word of pro athletes who commented about another player to be false, no one could ever provide proof. Like someone wrote about the Negro League, there is no way in hell we even know about all of the truly best at all sport endeavors throughout even the last 100 years.[/quote]

1 pro athlete said that guy was the goat, how many say the same about MJ? Doesn’t that massive amount of support from not just average joes but nba studs for Jordan to be goat mean something? [/quote]

? Is the issue here that we used Michael’s name at all? The point is that there are people with great potential and great abilities that you may never know about. If you are arguing that, something is wrong with you.

Everyone who has the potential to be great or is great at bench pressing will not automatically end up in strongman contests or on ESPN.

Either way, that will be my last post in this thread. It seems to always be the same guys and if I had to guess, most of T-Nation isn’t proud of it.[/quote]

This isn’t even the argument, way to side step it as usual.

We aren’t arguing against there being randoms with great potential/abilities we don’t know about. We are arguing that A NATURAL LIFTER is not breaking every bench/incline press record KNOWN TO MAN done by assisted lifters. Jesus Christ.

[/quote]

Actually we are arguing that there are randos out there with great abilities we don’t know about.

As quoted from the op:

[quote]Background - it seems some members of this site seem to think there are members of society walking around that are better than the best of all time. Regular street ball players that are better than Michael Jordan. Powerlifters (w/o videos) with better lifts than world record holders, etc.

Continue discussion.[/quote]
[/quote]

Dude are you fucking retarded? Seriously.

The OP says “better than the best of all time”. [/quote]

Yeah, and if you would actually read anything I’ve written then you wouldn’t have to resort to name calling. Fucking steroid monkey. Yeah, I went there. Don’t resort to names cunt puncher. Fucking now, that’s juvenile, and if you want to get juvenile I can do it with the best. Not once did I resort to such douchebaggery. You can go fuck yourself if that’s what you feel you need to resort to. Prick. I may respect you in the lifting game, but you can get fucked asshole.

180

I came late to this thread but I think it’s utterly ridiculous to suggest some streetballer could have haad the potential to be greater than MJ if he was “discovered”.

What people fail to realize is even if you had some guy who’s supremely gifted athletically can just go into the NBA and dominate the league like MJ is smoking something. People overlook the mental aspects of this argument. To have the drive, fortitude, obsession, dedication to spend every waking hour honing your craft; studying tape; having an overwhelming will to crush opponents, spend hours upon hours going through each move, shot, dribbling exercise, etc.

The best analogy I can come up with is Tracy McGrady. This guy did make it into the NBA and has had a pretty good career. The reason I bring him up, however, is that anyone who knows him, scouts, coaches, etc says that he has the most natural talent and perfect physical attributes of a basketball player that they have ever seen. Many agree he could have been one of the greatest. So it begs the question; why wasn’t he? Why didn’t he reach that potential to take MJ’s throne or knock Kobe Bryant off his perch?

They all say the same thing. He was so damn talented that he took his gifts for granted and never really had the maniacal drive to really work at his craft. He rode on his talents. And now he’s an afterthought in the NBA playing on the Pistons with a career that could have been so much more.

It is an extremely rare individual to have the physical gifts and the mental makeup of an MJ. It’s much easier to find someone that has these awesome physical gifts that lit up for years in a random New York basketball court and became a local legend in the process. It’s a whole different scenario to find that same dude that has the mental capacity to achieve success at the highest levels in life.