Better Than the Best

Off Topic
141

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]kothreat wrote:
Actually we are arguing that there are randos out there with great abilities we don’t know about.

As quoted from the op:

[quote]Background - it seems some members of this site seem to think there are members of society walking around that are better than the best of all time. Regular street ball players that are better than Michael Jordan. Powerlifters (w/o videos) with better lifts than world record holders, etc.

Continue discussion.[/quote]
[/quote]

How are you so great at Trivial Pursuit? Does someone else read you the questions because it seems like your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

NO ONE has denied that there are “randos” (<–is this kinda like a plural version of Rambo… like multiple Rambo? Rambos) that have great abilities that we dont know of.

what has been said OVER AND OVER is that there aren’t (as in are not) randoms (or randos as you call them) that are “better than the best” of all time. (like the thread is titled)

what is so hard about that?[/quote]

Can you prove this statement?

Can you without a doubt prove that there has been no one on the planet since Michael first got into the NBA who could match his talent if they were trained to do so?
[/quote]

The burden of proof falls on those making ridiculous claims, not those sticking with truths instead of hypothetical situation.[/quote]

Wrong answer. We might as well be debating whether God exists.

If you can not prove it, then the possibility remains that yes, someone could have been alive within the last 30 years who could have matched his talent with the right training.

[/quote]

For the last time, for those of us who are more thick headed than most.

There is a big difference between saying there are people out there with the POTENTIAL of being something, and saying there are currently people out there that are flat out better than the GOAT.

You. Are. Dense.[/quote]

? I do believe everyone here debating you has discussed the potential and that there is a possibility. You seem to be the only one acting like the use of Michael as the GOAT means there can be no one with that potential out there.

[/quote]

Well then it’s unfortunate people are trying to change the debate. You made claims in no uncertain terms and now are back pedaling into “potential”.

142

[quote]gregron wrote:
Give me all the training and coaching in the world and I would never get 1 minute of playing time in the NBA.[/quote]

EXACTLY!!! I could work out with the best nba trainers in the world, for a year, and go to an nba tryout and they would fucking laugh at me.

143

Not you X. That was a joke for the above post but it came in late.

I’d never put someone on ignore because I couldn’t handle/win a discussion/argument.

144

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
Give me all the training and coaching in the world and I would never get 1 minute of playing time in the NBA.[/quote]

EXACTLY!!! I could work out with the best nba trainers in the world, for a year, and go to an nba tryout and they would fucking laugh at me.[/quote]

probably a bad example though… we’re both white and not 6’2"+ (i dont know of any white guys under 6’2" in the NBA?)

lol

145

[quote]gregron wrote:

PART of what makes them so good is their training and coaching… but MOST of what makes them great is their skill and God given physical talent/abilities. [/quote]

OK, and what was actually stated (because this went into two different threads LWH’s and the NBA thread) is that statistically, there would have to be other humans with similar physical characteristics but without the environmental and mental factors, they would come up short…but if they could be given those, they could match the talent.

You see, the people you are speaking to aren’t clueless about sports. No one has denied that those other factors (like determination, motivation) are what provides the largest contribution towards making a great athlete.

We were saying that there are too many humans on the planet for there not to be others with the TALENT portion even if they come up short mentally or are in a completely different environment that does not nurture it.

You can not claim this is IMPOSSIBLE. To say that is to be blind to what science is.

The POSSIBILITY is there…regardless of how “improbable” it may be.

146

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

Because if someone has that natural ability they will (most likely) be driven to it.[/quote]

Bullshit. That may happen in many cases, but not all. There will always be that guy with the talent who lacks the desire…or the guy with the talent who chooses another pursuit.

147

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Not you X. That was a joke for the above post but it came in late.

I’d never put someone on ignore because I couldn’t handle/win a discussion/argument. [/quote]

LOL. If I put people on ignore (like I have done with Headhunter) it is because they are acting like a troll. No one is afraid of you or anyone else…but when all real discussion ends because some of you want to call people out in every thread, you meet the criteria.

Sorry.

LOL at thinking it is about “handling” someone.

148

I didn’t read every post in this thread (i intend to because its a good debate, but in a rush right now).

But my question is What if YOU were the strongest man on the planet and proved to the world on the record that you were and some no name GOAT was always placed above you when talking about the strongest man to ever live?

I mean theres no way to prove that you’re better than the no name GOAT because he never gave you the chance to beat him…you know cause he never ACTUALLY competed on the record.

149

[quote]Professor X wrote:
OK, and what was actually stated (because this went into two different threads LWH’s and the NBA thread) is that statistically, there would have to be other humans with similar physical characteristics but without the environmental and mental factors, they would come up short…but if they could be given those, they could match the talent.[/quote]

why would there “have to be other humans with similar physical characteristics”?
(their physical characteristics would actually have to be better than MJ’s if they were going to be better than him right? not similar to, but better)

The “mental factors” aren’t something that is taught/coached. That drive, focus and determination to be the best is something people either have or they don’t (as i’m sure you would agree. this goes for sports and life as well) so it cant really be given to them.

There have been quite a few great players who went straight from highschool to the NBA. They didnt have all the opportunities and coaching that other kids did but they made it big time.

150

I compare this thread to the recent (and other) “Is there life in the universe other than on Earth?”.

Some have (and will) argue that “the math” says there must be life in the universe. It’s so vast. How can we be so closed minded? How can we possibly know without having combed the entire universe.

Some of those people have posted in this and other threads absolutely convinced that no one (outside of some sanctioned, recorded competition) can press more than current record holders (who by a series of decisions and events have competed in sanctioned, recorded events).

Vast universe and only one planet with life, but there MUST be life elsewhere (even though there is absolutely no evidence or means to explore or even a definite knowledge of how life could be supported)

BUT

6+ BILLION (near 7 BILLION) people on the Earth (currently, not including past) and not one could possibly be stronger or have ever been stronger than the current record holder (even though that feat of strength is only tangentially correlated with another feat of strength- eg. flat bench v. incline bench) anywhere at any time on the face of the planet ever.

151

[quote]gregron wrote:

why would there “have to be other humans with similar physical characteristics”? [/quote]

Because we have not even finished reaching our own collective potential as a species.

[quote]

The “mental factors” aren’t something that is taught/coached. That drive, focus and determination to be the best is something people either have or they don’t (as i’m sure you would agree. this goes for sports and life as well) so it cant really be given to them.[/quote]

Actually, your environment has more to do with that than you seem to realize. That is why there are so few black hockey players…not because no black person can play hockey. (and yes, I know there actually are a couple)

Uh, huh…and there are tons of poor kids in small towns, tons of people in countries you haven’t heard of who have even less opportunities.

152

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I compare this thread to the recent (and other) “Is there life in the universe other than on Earth?”.

Some have (and will) argue that “the math” says there must be life in the universe. It’s so vast. How can we be so closed minded? How can we possibly know without having combed the entire universe.

Some of those people have posted in this and other threads absolutely convinced that no one (outside of some sanctioned, recorded competition) can press more than current record holders (who by a series of decisions and events have competed in sanctioned, recorded events).

Vast universe and only one planet with life, but there MUST be life elsewhere (even though there is absolutely no evidence or means to explore or even a definite knowledge of how life could be supported)

BUT

6+ BILLION (near 7 BILLION) people on the Earth (currently, not including past) and not one could possibly be stronger or have ever been stronger than the current record holder (even though that feat of strength is only tangentially correlated with another feat of strength- eg. flat bench v. incline bench) anywhere at any time on the face of the planet ever.

[/quote]

LOL. Like I said, they left out the logic.

They are just screaming atheists.

153

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I am sure there a tremendous athletes who chose a different path, I however do not for a second believe that someone who could beat MJ is not in the NBA/hall of fame. [/quote]

Why do you believe this? Why would you believe that everyone with that ability would even go into basketball at all? Part of what makes these athletes that good is their training and coaching…and we keep saying over and over that the debate is the existence of someone who WITH THE RIGHT TRAINING could do so.

You are claiming this is impossible…that no one could ever be good at it and not go into basketball.[/quote]

PART of what makes them so good is their training and coaching… but MOST of what makes them great is their skill and God given physical talent/abilities. Look at three of the best players in the NBA right now (KOBE, LBJ and Dwight Howard)

All three of those players went to the NBA straight from highschool! They werent getting the best coaching/training as highschool kids and they were still great enough to go to the NBA and tear shit up.

Coaching and training are important but they arent going to turn joe schmo into an all star. Give me all the training and coaching in the world and I would never get 1 minute of playing time in the NBA.[/quote]

Kobe Bryant’s dad was a pro player and Dwight’s dad was the athletic director of ones of the best basketball program’s in the US. Dwight’s mom also played college ball.

I would say their coaching growing up was anything but typical and contributed a LOT to their success.

154

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I am sure there a tremendous athletes who chose a different path, I however do not for a second believe that someone who could beat MJ is not in the NBA/hall of fame. [/quote]

Why do you believe this? Why would you believe that everyone with that ability would even go into basketball at all? Part of what makes these athletes that good is their training and coaching…and we keep saying over and over that the debate is the existence of someone who WITH THE RIGHT TRAINING could do so.

You are claiming this is impossible…that no one could ever be good at it and not go into basketball.[/quote]

PART of what makes them so good is their training and coaching… but MOST of what makes them great is their skill and God given physical talent/abilities. Look at three of the best players in the NBA right now (KOBE, LBJ and Dwight Howard)

All three of those players went to the NBA straight from highschool! They werent getting the best coaching/training as highschool kids and they were still great enough to go to the NBA and tear shit up.

Coaching and training are important but they arent going to turn joe schmo into an all star. Give me all the training and coaching in the world and I would never get 1 minute of playing time in the NBA.[/quote]

Kobe Bryant’s dad was a pro player and Dwight’s dad was the athletic director of ones of the best basketball program’s in the US. Dwight’s mom also played college ball.

I would say their coaching growing up was anything but typical and contributed a LOT to their success.

[/quote]

I never said that their coaching was typical.

Do you think that there were/are other highschool kids out there with just as good and better training than what Kobe and Howard got? Why arent they in the NBA dominating those two? (let me answer my own question here cause its pretty rhetorical… the answer is TALENT)

155

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I compare this thread to the recent (and other) “Is there life in the universe other than on Earth?”.

Some have (and will) argue that “the math” says there must be life in the universe. It’s so vast. How can we be so closed minded? How can we possibly know without having combed the entire universe.

Some of those people have posted in this and other threads absolutely convinced that no one (outside of some sanctioned, recorded competition) can press more than current record holders (who by a series of decisions and events have competed in sanctioned, recorded events).

Vast universe and only one planet with life, but there MUST be life elsewhere (even though there is absolutely no evidence or means to explore or even a definite knowledge of how life could be supported)

BUT

6+ BILLION (near 7 BILLION) people on the Earth (currently, not including past) and not one could possibly be stronger or have ever been stronger than the current record holder (even though that feat of strength is only tangentially correlated with another feat of strength- eg. flat bench v. incline bench) anywhere at any time on the face of the planet ever.

[/quote]

LOL. Like I said, they left out the logic.

They are just screaming atheists.[/quote]
if we’re talking about just our world then obviously there were people stronger than current world record holders… Samson… duh! (pre haircut obviously)

if we’re talking about life on other planets… then again… duh… Superman.

(post is meant to show how stupid this “woulda coulda shoulda” argument is. what if what if what if)

156

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

why would there “have to be other humans with similar physical characteristics”? [/quote]

Because we have not even finished reaching our own collective potential as a species.

[quote]

The “mental factors” aren’t something that is taught/coached. That drive, focus and determination to be the best is something people either have or they don’t (as i’m sure you would agree. this goes for sports and life as well) so it cant really be given to them.[/quote]

Actually, your environment has more to do with that than you seem to realize. That is why there are so few black hockey players…not because no black person can play hockey. (and yes, I know there actually are a couple)

Uh, huh…and there are tons of poor kids in small towns, tons of people in countries you haven’t heard of who have even less opportunities.[/quote]

I know environment has a lot to do with a lot of factors… do you think that “killer instinct” that the greats in every sport have is something they’re born with? Dont you think that they are just insanely competitive people that wont accept anything but winning?

157

[quote]gregron wrote:

I never said that their coaching was typical.

Do you think that there were/are other highschool kids out there with just as good and better training than what Kobe and Howard got? Why arent they in the NBA dominating those two? (let me answer my own question here cause its pretty rhetorical… the answer is TALENT)
[/quote]

Question for you, Greg…since you seem to be one of the few who has the ability to discuss this without the crap I am seeing lately with a few others…but why would you even assume that some kid with no ties to the sport (formally) in a small town without the guidance would receive “just as good and better training” as anyone who made it to the NBA?

Isn’t that the point? That some people CAN slip through the cracks? They obviously WOULDN’T get “just as good and better training”. They would possibly get NO training.

158

[quote]gregron wrote:

I know environment has a lot to do with a lot of factors… do you think that “killer instinct” that the greats in every sport have is something they’re born with? Dont you think that they are just insanely competitive people that wont accept anything but winning?[/quote]

That “killer instinct” doesn’t end with basketball. I played sports early on, and yes, if I had stuck with it, I might not be sitting here now. I do believe Bodyguard on this site made a similar claim in that he almost went into pro sports but made a dumb decision. Some of you are now claiming this is impossible and can’t happen.

I have that “killer instinct” now as far as my career and finances. I keep it in the gym as well because I have other goals.

The point, again, is that you won’t know one way or the other…so assuming every guy with great talent will even end up playing the sport they are talented in is to completely dismiss the human factor in that equation.

159

We don’t have to look any further than Vic Richards. The guy chose not to lead a life of competitive bodybuilding but was too big not to notice to this very day. If one is truly that great at something, they WILL GET NOTICED. True greatness doesn’t “fall through the cracks”.

160

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I compare this thread to the recent (and other) “Is there life in the universe other than on Earth?”.

Some have (and will) argue that “the math” says there must be life in the universe. It’s so vast. How can we be so closed minded? How can we possibly know without having combed the entire universe.

Some of those people have posted in this and other threads absolutely convinced that no one (outside of some sanctioned, recorded competition) can press more than current record holders (who by a series of decisions and events have competed in sanctioned, recorded events).

Vast universe and only one planet with life, but there MUST be life elsewhere (even though there is absolutely no evidence or means to explore or even a definite knowledge of how life could be supported)

BUT

6+ BILLION (near 7 BILLION) people on the Earth (currently, not including past) and not one could possibly be stronger or have ever been stronger than the current record holder (even though that feat of strength is only tangentially correlated with another feat of strength- eg. flat bench v. incline bench) anywhere at any time on the face of the planet ever.

[/quote]

I actually see the logic in this post, but you’re missing something. 7 billion may seem like a lot, but you can multiply that number by any number you want and will still not come close to infinity. The universe is never ending. Try putting a number on it and your brain will explode.