Best Style for Self Defense?

Training
101

[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
yea im doing some muay thai training and i kind of just wanted to see if any of you guys had any tips or anything for mastering the strikes and which ones would be able to be thrown in real life scenario not the gym [/quote]

Sentoguy, Miss Parker, and Blaze have all answered this properly, with varying degrees of tact.

I am going to suggest/plead that you focus on developing decent technique in your chosen art before attempting to modify/add to/pare down the techniques to make them “applicable”/effective. If you are going to obsess about this, than obsess about how to improve your boxing.

I am confused on one point, are you training western boxing or thai boxing? If you are just adding a few thai pad workouts onto your boxing training, you may be better served using those extra workouts to further your boxing training. At least until you get comfortable with one or the other.

Now, purely in the interest of comedy;

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
The problem with that question is that it’s pretty damn impossible for us to answer it given that a real life scenario can have a nearly infinite number of variables which would change the answer.

In a combat sport you pretty much always know

  1. where the fight will take place
  2. who you will fight (and what age, approximate size, and gender they will be)
  3. how many people you will fight
  4. when you will fight
  5. what types of attacks you will face (depending on the rules of the fight)
  6. approximately how long the fight will last
  7. what position(s) the fight will start in
    And a host of other variables/questions

In a real self defense situation though, you don’t know the answers to any of the above questions ahead of time and therefore it’s impossible to say which techniques or tactics are going to be applicable to any given situation.

The only real answer that we can give you is basically what Miss Parker said above; train hard and should an appropriate situation ever come up in a real self defense situation/fight, then you will hopefully be able to execute the desired technique at that time.[/quote]

Which is why it is most important to seize the psycho-tactical advantage!

OP, I am going to share the actual best style/technique with you. People like Sento may know it, but they do not want it to get out on an open message board. I promise you, this is what all the hardcore types do.

When confronted, regardless of the enemy, immediately and suddenly disrobe. This is best accomplished by means of “break away”/quick off clothing, the kind popular with exotic dancers. Sure, it is a hassle to have to by and wear specialized gear, but preparedness is a hallmark of the warrior.

Strip down.

Revealing your naked body.

A body you have painted completely yellow.

Then shout “I AM THE GIANT RAPE BANNANA!”

From this point commence combat from the position of psychological advantage.

I will warn you that many supposedly “Reality Based” schools and styles will balk at you training in your yellow naked glory, but “You have to train as you plan to fight.”

Amiright?

Regards,

Robert A

102

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
yea im doing some muay thai training and i kind of just wanted to see if any of you guys had any tips or anything for mastering the strikes and which ones would be able to be thrown in real life scenario not the gym [/quote]

Sentoguy, Miss Parker, and Blaze have all answered this properly, with varying degrees of tact.

I am going to suggest/plead that you focus on developing decent technique in your chosen art before attempting to modify/add to/pare down the techniques to make them “applicable”/effective. If you are going to obsess about this, than obsess about how to improve your boxing.

I am confused on one point, are you training western boxing or thai boxing? If you are just adding a few thai pad workouts onto your boxing training, you may be better served using those extra workouts to further your boxing training. At least until you get comfortable with one or the other.

Now, purely in the interest of comedy;

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
The problem with that question is that it’s pretty damn impossible for us to answer it given that a real life scenario can have a nearly infinite number of variables which would change the answer.

In a combat sport you pretty much always know

  1. where the fight will take place
  2. who you will fight (and what age, approximate size, and gender they will be)
  3. how many people you will fight
  4. when you will fight
  5. what types of attacks you will face (depending on the rules of the fight)
  6. approximately how long the fight will last
  7. what position(s) the fight will start in
    And a host of other variables/questions

In a real self defense situation though, you don’t know the answers to any of the above questions ahead of time and therefore it’s impossible to say which techniques or tactics are going to be applicable to any given situation.

The only real answer that we can give you is basically what Miss Parker said above; train hard and should an appropriate situation ever come up in a real self defense situation/fight, then you will hopefully be able to execute the desired technique at that time.[/quote]

Which is why it is most important to seize the psycho-tactical advantage!

OP, I am going to share the actual best style/technique with you. People like Sento may know it, but they do not want it to get out on an open message board. I promise you, this is what all the hardcore types do.

When confronted, regardless of the enemy, immediately and suddenly disrobe. This is best accomplished by means of “break away”/quick off clothing, the kind popular with exotic dancers. Sure, it is a hassle to have to by and wear specialized gear, but preparedness is a hallmark of the warrior.

Strip down.

Revealing your naked body.

A body you have painted completely yellow.

Then shout “I AM THE GIANT RAPE BANNANA!”

From this point commence combat from the position of psychological advantage.

I will warn you that many supposedly “Reality Based” schools and styles will balk at you training in your yellow naked glory, but “You have to train as you plan to fight.”

Amiright?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Absolutely correct Robert A.

We train this exact tactic at my RMA school with one minor variation. We paint ourselves purple and go with “RAPE EGGPLANT” which most people actually find more alarming and demoralizing due to the greater relative diameter.

Principle stays the same, diverse in application.

103

Lol you guys, just imagine if someone actually took your advice seriously. Talk about deterring your attacker.

104

And if he isn’t deterred you’ve got a whole other problem on your hands.

105

One way or another, you’re going to take a pounding.

106

Damn you, Robert A, for revealing our most sacred street-fighting secret! You have broken the code, sir!

107

[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
come at me brah im just trying to find some tips to help with throwing the thai elbows… i understand it takes time and i have been training was just looking for some other help[/quote]
You can’t convey in text how to do a technique. You need to ask your instructor what you’re doing wrong.

And throwing elbows in a self defense situation is probably going to be a dumb thing to do. Elbows are short range and they are meant for cutting, not trying to knock someone out. At least that’s what I was taught about them.

108

A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.

109

Yoitspmart,

As far as serious answers go; this right here:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]

I am also going to state that what will allow you to use elbows well is your skill in using range, timing, angles, generating momentum, and ability to use momentum to injure the other guy. All of that will be developed through hours and hours of training the fundamentals.

Elbows are absolutely effective, but if you lack superior skill in the basics they are not going to seem all that useful.

I really think you will be much more dangerous throwing elbows 12 months from now if for the next 6 months you use your “extra” or “additional” workouts to review the things your coac(es) showed you in the previous workout. Even if that means doing 40 minutes of moving around with your hands up, or slowly throwing jab-right, step out until you still do it in your dreams.

Now, as for how elbows fit in with boxing: “Accidental” or “incidental” elbows used to be more common in boxing, but the enforcement of rules has sort of limited them a bit. If you watch tape of Hollyfield you can watch him follow through with an elbow after “missing” his left hook or sneaking a short elbow to the body in fairly often though. This is the “other” way of applying elbows. Not as a big discrete strike, but simply as one more thing to hurt/gouge the other guy with. Not “instead of” the technique, but “in addition to”.

Here is a HL video of Holyfield. Note how he uses his head and elbows at close range. Also, try to find the humor in opening and closing the video with Philippians 4:13 “There is nothing I cannot do in the One who strengthens me.” when I am using it as an example of dirty fighting. Oh, and Holyfield did his level best to duck Lewis contrary to the vid’s maker’s opinion.

Here is an example of elbows being thrown for IMPACT. There is a downward elbow early, and a TKO at the end.

Regards,

Robert A

110

come at me,bro!!! :))

111

[quote]yoitspmart wrote:
come at me brah im just trying to find some tips to help with throwing the thai elbows… i understand it takes time and i have been training was just looking for some other help[/quote]
You have a coach, don’t you?
How can we help you with a complicated movement over the innernets?

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Sentoguy, Miss Parker, and Blaze have all answered this properly, with varying degrees of tact.
[/quote]

:smiley:

112

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]
Possibly but how often do we see it in fights. Fact is you’ll have to be pretty much be clinching with someone to throw an elbow to their jaw or temple. If you’re clinching you’re likely going to want to use knees to the stomach or push their head down since they will be untrained and knee them to the head. I’m just not certain a elbow to the side of the head will hurt more than a hook.

I think a one-two will put most guys down who don’t train. As long as they aren’t 30-50 pounds bigger than you.

113

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]
Possibly but how often do we see it in fights. Fact is you’ll have to be pretty much be clinching with someone to throw an elbow to their jaw or temple. If you’re clinching you’re likely going to want to use knees to the stomach or push their head down since they will be untrained and knee them to the head. I’m just not certain a elbow to the side of the head will hurt more than a hook.

I think a one-two will put most guys down who don’t train. As long as they aren’t 30-50 pounds bigger than you. [/quote]

The main advantage of elbows over fists (especially if they are more of a forearm smash) is their durability. The limitation is their range, but it’s certainly a possibility that you will end up in clinch range in a self defense situation, especially if you develop your entering skills sufficiently.

114

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]
Possibly but how often do we see it in fights. Fact is you’ll have to be pretty much be clinching with someone to throw an elbow to their jaw or temple. If you’re clinching you’re likely going to want to use knees to the stomach or push their head down since they will be untrained and knee them to the head. I’m just not certain a elbow to the side of the head will hurt more than a hook.

I think a one-two will put most guys down who don’t train. As long as they aren’t 30-50 pounds bigger than you. [/quote]

So you assume you will only fight untrained people or those not stronger than you?

Well,too bad youre likely to use self-defence against agressive people who think are stronger than you either cause they can fight or are 30-50 pounds bigger than you…or you ll be outnumbered or he ll use weapons.

115

Personally I know I can throw an elbow with much more force than any of my punches. The problem is getting into position to use them. Most street fights I have encountered the other guy tries to swing wildly and keep lots of distance or grab you and pull you down.

If you can survive the clinch maybe you can land an elbow if you are looking for it, if the guys stays out of range…well then he is out of range. I have had someone swing on me and I ducked the punch and landed a solid right elbow to his face. It was game over for him, bleeding from the face and asleep on the floor and unable to do anything about it.

116

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]
Possibly but how often do we see it in fights. Fact is you’ll have to be pretty much be clinching with someone to throw an elbow to their jaw or temple. If you’re clinching you’re likely going to want to use knees to the stomach or push their head down since they will be untrained and knee them to the head. I’m just not certain a elbow to the side of the head will hurt more than a hook.

I think a one-two will put most guys down who don’t train. As long as they aren’t 30-50 pounds bigger than you. [/quote]

A good 1-2 will drop most people, I agree, but oftentimes shit starts in a range that’s not conducive to lining up a good rear straight punch.

And knees are good but like everything else they’re situational. An elbow can do a lot of damage, especially if you pin a dude’s head against the wall or the bar and go to town.

117

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]
Possibly but how often do we see it in fights. Fact is you’ll have to be pretty much be clinching with someone to throw an elbow to their jaw or temple. If you’re clinching you’re likely going to want to use knees to the stomach or push their head down since they will be untrained and knee them to the head. I’m just not certain a elbow to the side of the head will hurt more than a hook.

I think a one-two will put most guys down who don’t train. As long as they aren’t 30-50 pounds bigger than you. [/quote]

Either you have steel in your hands, or you’ve never thrown a hook to the head. The potential for fucking up your hands is huge. Believe me, I’m a pure boxer and elbows, knees, headbutts are not my bread and butter. But in the days when this was more of a reality for me, my absolute priority was not busting my hand, firstly cos you’ll lose the fight as a result, and secondly because I had to compete, so elbows were preferable to fists when it came to brawling.

Also, a 1-2 will put a guy 50lbs or more heavier than you down if you get your distance and timing right. Where the head goes, the body will follow. The issue is hitting someone cleanly, not the force of your punches, when you’re bare knuckled. A mate of mine with a good chin was nearly put on his arse by a girl who was messing about and got over enthusiastic throwing punches, because he wasnt really expecting it.

Really, if you find yourself being clinched from the front, you’ve done something pretty wrong. Control the distance, keep people away, at least til you can step inside a punch if needs be and crack them over the top.

118

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
A well thrown elbow to the jaw or temple, if you have been naive enough to let someone close the distance on you that much, will put someone much bigger than you down long enough for you to run like greased weasel shit.[/quote]
Possibly but how often do we see it in fights. Fact is you’ll have to be pretty much be clinching with someone to throw an elbow to their jaw or temple. If you’re clinching you’re likely going to want to use knees to the stomach or push their head down since they will be untrained and knee them to the head. I’m just not certain a elbow to the side of the head will hurt more than a hook.

I think a one-two will put most guys down who don’t train. As long as they aren’t 30-50 pounds bigger than you. [/quote]

A good 1-2 will drop most people, I agree, but oftentimes shit starts in a range that’s not conducive to lining up a good rear straight punch.

And knees are good but like everything else they’re situational. An elbow can do a lot of damage, especially if you pin a dude’s head against the wall or the bar and go to town.[/quote]

Word, mofo, you sound like a bad bastard there mate. I still feel that with experience it is possible to control the distance to play to your strengths, but you’ve got to make the mistakes I guess to reach that point. When you are on the floor with someone bigger than you squashing your head and twisting your ear off and dribbling on you at the same time, you do tend to reach a state of enlightenment, and resolve to do things like less of a plonker in future

119

You have to understand this is in response to the guy who was asking about throwing elbows first in a fight. Elbows shouldn’t be your first go to move when you’re defending yourself. He was talking about it like it was.

Yeah you can hurt your hands on someone’s head. You can also hurt your elbows too.

Obviously I think you should keep your distance and use punches. My point was you’d have to be basically be clinching with someone to hit the side of their head with your elbow. It’s just not practical. It would be much easier to use a hook and you could be a lot more accurate with a hook. And in the clinch knees are going to be a lot better than elbows.

120

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
You have to understand this is in response to the guy who was asking about throwing elbows first in a fight. Elbows shouldn’t be your first go to move when you’re defending yourself. He was talking about it like it was.

[quote]

Your first go to move will be largely determined by your starting range, position, and skill set. If you are close enough to throw an elbow and the opportunity presents itself, go ahead and throw it. Don’t pass up a perfectly good elbow just because you think it “shouldn’t be your first choice”.

Sure, any part of your body can potentially be hurt if it hits something hard enough, but some parts of your body can take more abuse than others. Elbows/forearm strikes can withstand much more impact and are much more resistant to damage than punches.

[quote]
Obviously I think you should keep your distance and use punches. My point was you’d have to be basically be clinching with someone to hit the side of their head with your elbow. It’s just not practical. It would be much easier to use a hook and you could be a lot more accurate with a hook. And in the clinch knees are going to be a lot better than elbows.[/quote]

In an ideal world sure, keep your distance and use punches. But you are looking at this from a very narrow perspective. First, you never know when or how you are going to be attacked, yes things like awareness, avoidance, and just plain common sense will go a long way, but anyone can be surprised.

Also, what if the person has a significant reach advantage over you? You still think it’s wise to try to keep distance and use punches? Have you ever sparred or fought someone with a significant reach advantage before? If you have you’ll know that’s a terrible strategy in such situations. What you need to do is close the distance and get in close where your superior speed and (usually) leverage will give you the advantage and their reach will no longer help them. In a close situation like that, elbows, knees, and headbutts (along with biting, grappling, and other close range techniques) are great tools.