Best Squats for Vertical Jump?

Training Powerlifting
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[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
RJ24 and Donut62, are you guys serious? I found this on the first page of a google search and I’m sure there’s plenty more.

“A 15-week study compared football players using a powerlifting program to players using an Olympic weightlifting program to improve athletic performance. After the 15-week study was over, the Olympic weightlifting group showed a significant improvement in the vertical jump and 40 meter sprint over the powerlifting group.”

and here’s the study:

Hoffman, Jr, J Cooper, M Wendell, and J Kang. “Comparison of Olympic Vs. Traditional Power Lifting Training Programs in Football Players.” 18 (2004): 129-135. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18 (2004).
[/quote]

An intereting study, but I don’t think it disproves my point. I said that developing a high degree of maximal strength + the ability to display that strength quickly is what is needed (obviously).

Here we are taking a group of football players who have already been exposed to heavy lifting for many years and already have significant strength levels. The group that trained that already advanced strength only showed little improvment in displaying force rapidly, while the group that performed explosive exercises and trained their rate of force production showed the best increase. I think that result whould be quite easy to hypothesize.

I never said that olympic lifts won’t help your vertical jump, just there other ways to train explosiveness that are a better option for most people. I would like to see a study that compares a group of football players who train olympic lifts versus a group of football players who train with jump squats, box jumps, kneeling jump squats, etc. I am convinced that we wouldn’t see a difference in that case.

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[quote]SquatDr wrote:
good find, and very interesting. however i think what the debate is, is not whether powerlifting is better than oly lifting or the other way around, but that all one needs to do is jump squat to get the same benefit as the oly lifts.

someone suggested just picking up the weight explosively is all you need to do to get the benefit of an oly lift, but i would argue that triple extension is the main purpose of the oly lifts, which most people dont get right off the bat. which is why in many cases the high pulls are very effective alternates to the full oly lifts themselves as long as triple extension is used.

in the end, i think we can mostly agree that a combo of the power lifts, jump squats and or oly lifts, and some jumping would be what you need. you could throw some sprinting in there too if needed.

[/quote]

Thanks for weighing in. I would bet my life that you have the highest vertical on T-Nation so I like to hear your thoughts. The pics in your profile are insane.

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Posting an isolated study that compares a pure Olympic lifting program to a pure Powerlifting program is not what this discussion is about, nor does it support your argument on the merit of Olympic Lifts.

It merely proves that an Olympic lifting program over a short period of time will do more for your vertical jump than a powerlifting program will over a short period of time. In reality, a program geared toward the athlete is required, incorporating the appropriate means and methods for the athlete’s specific sport.

In the case of vertical jump training, neither a pure powerlifting or pure olympic lifting program is ideal. I used to exclusively Olympic Lift, getting up to a 300lb. clean and jerk at 200lb at 6’3. My vertical was 28" at the time. The Olympic lifts teach you to apply just as much force into the ground as needed in order to complete the lift. That is all.

The correlation between elite weightlifters’ olypmic lifts and their vertical jumps is flawed in that it is not their special stength in the O lifts that enable them to make these massive leaps but their general abilty to squat 3-4 times their bodyweight in order to lift these massivee weights.

At the time I was clean and jerking 300lb i only front squatted enough to enable me to do that, which was 305 at the time. Now, after I moved my trainingg to specific jump training by attmepting to get my front squat(front squat, back squat, whatever, merely a high relative squatting weight) up to 350 for a double and incorporating jump squats, depth jumps/shock jumps, and various other voluntary explosive and reactive drills, my vertical got up to 34".

My clean and jerk actually dropped during this time since I dropped the O lifts, which I never do anymore due to impingement of the glenohumeral joint. The point is…my proficiency in the O lifts did not correlate to a stellar vertical, however, the increase of my relative strength along with the incorporation of reactive drills and basic jumps(depth, landings, up and over) had a tremendous impact upon my vertical, even though my O lifts went down.

In short, attaining a high vertical is the cumulative effect of obtaining a high degree if limit strength and then being able to realize that strength potential by applying that force with a time constraint of .2 seconds by incorporating various jumps, throws, and to some degree sprints.

The O lifts are not ideal to help you realize that potential in my opinion. Notice I said not worthless, just not ideal considering the alternatives. The O lifts do not even begin to become effective until you can at least C&J your own BW, and that is because they only teach you to apply enough force to the ground to overcome the barbell.

The act of pulling yourself under the bar is actually counterintuitivee to jumping up as hard as possible, and unless you have dedicated some serious time to OL then you would have no idea what I’m talking about. There are many paths to your destination, and while O lifts can be useful in certain situation, I believe far more efficient methods are available.

Now I would like to add that I love the sport of weightlifting. I just think that training an athlete whose goal is to run faster and jump higher by having them train like olympic lifters is ridiculous.

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I think the main benefits of the olympic lifts are that they provide a structure to a program. I also think that’s why they are favored by many coaches who work in a setting where they work with a large number of athletes.

Then all you have to do is teach the kids proper form and as they progress in the oly lifts, they’ll probably get more explosive and athletic to a certain point. I think the whole, “you have to be explosive to oly lift” argument does have some merit.

Personally, I think it’s more wise to perform various squats and jumps and different loads in order to increase strength at different areas along the force curve, simply because they are easier to master and manipulate and are more versatile.

However, the problem is that when an athlete is performing those exercises without supervision, there is more of a chance of performing them incorrectly unless they have a good grasp of what they are trying to accomplish. Many athletes might not realize they might get more training effect out of a reactive squat or a jump squat by using less load. That is counter-intuitive to many athletes.

Personally, I don’t think that it is such a big hurdle. I just think you have to spend a little time working with it.

Was a good summary of it.