Ese wey me da hueva.
[quote]Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
lol you are such a weasel.
ok how bout this, I will put it exactly like you did.
“Lots of people WILL grow better with splits than total body training.”
Now if you still think that is the most ridiculous blanket statement you have ever heard, then guess what? Your comment is in the same boat.
Not at all, that’s a perfectly reasonable statement. I suggest you grab a dictionary and look up the difference between “lots” and “most” though, because it seems you’re a little confused on that point.
Professor X wrote:
I bet you actually think this is a good thing. My diet isn’t the exact same as it was even 8 months ago because I carry more muscle on me now and as such, my diet had to be adjusted.
Anyone not doing this has FAILED at one the most basic aspects of bodybuilding to begin with.
I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you and several other successful lifters follow vaguely the same sort of diet I do/did, i.e. making sure I got enough calories to grow and enough protein. I’m sure your “grabbing a big mac on the way home” isn’t exactly nutritionally calculated to the nearest gram of fat, but you’re not an idiot so you know you’re getting what you need to grow. It seems to work for Lee Priest in the off season, no?
BONEZ217 wrote:
The “shit genetics” part was supposed to be tounge in cheek. No one has the same genetics so it’s pointless to debate it. And I believe genetics has less to do with building an impressive physique than most people think (because everyone can make improvements to their own physique, genetics may factor in when making comparisons but that isn’t relevant to this case).
Still, if you gained 14 pounds and more than 15% of it was fat you were not eating properly. Newb gains are generous to EVERYONEE.
Maybe you still don’t know how to eat right, who knows at this point??
Again, why are people talking about this like it’s rocket science? It’s hardly the most difficult thing in the world to make sure your calorie intake is high enough to grow, you’re getting enough protein to grow and you?re making sure to eat enough fat and carbs. I love the way you’re still refusing to accept the possibility I just didn?t respond well to the splits. Yeah, that must have been TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
BONEZ217 wrote:
Since my post didn’t appear yet I can’t edit it.
Your comments about advance vs. beginners are silly. How do you know when someone moves from the beginner to intermediate to advanced stage? You don’t. Because you don’t know someones max potetial right from the start.
Anyone, at any age, can use a split with sucess. Volume should be adjusted according to training age (IMO) but choosing when to train which body parts is irrelevant to age, sex, and experience.
And lots of people can use and have used TBT with success, yet you seem to be ignoring this.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, my bad, LOTS of people will grow better on it… We’ll get to that below.
Oh goody, can’t wait!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
A couple of years or less? If you are still a beginner after a bunch of years of training, then you’ve messed up. No matter what routine you did. It’s likely not even the routine’s fault.
Beginner or intermediate. And don’t forget some people have lives outside of the gym which make it difficult to make optimal progress.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Really. 99 percent of the posts of “ABBH/TBT/whatever results” show people who’ve done these routines for the 3-weeks or however long they’re supposed to be done… And gain practically nothing. Surprise. +5 or +10 lbs on your lifts make jackshit of a difference.
You obviously haven?t read the same threads I have then. And again, why are you twisting what I’ve said? I wouldn’t expect most posters here to gain better from TBT because they’re already more advanced and ready for a more advanced routine. I will say AGAIN go over to MH and you will see something totally different. Why are you insisting on ignoring this very simple point that I am arguing mainly for beginners and early intermediates? Is it just so that you can argue?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, men’s health guys… Wait, isn’t this the bodybuilding forum?
Yes, it is, and therefore it is likely that the majority of routines favoured here will be splits. But not every single poster here is an advanced or even intermediate lifter, so that doesn’t mean an advanced split will always work best, no matter what you might think.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Joe average huh… Do you mean “guys who lack any and all intensity in the gym and look the same year in year out” ?
Who the hell gives a damn about what people with no serious intentions to make progress in the gym do? They can do whatever they want, they make little to no progress past maybe beginner gains anyway.
Or do you mean “most beginners” ?
Bingo!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I used to be joe below-average. Professor X used to be that, too. A ton of others as well. We got strong very fast via splits… May have been able to do it via tbt…
Thank you! Finally! That’s what I was after, just a simple acknowledgement that for some people there MAY be another way that works. Doesn’t it feel good to feel that mind just opening up?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
…but that would have meant more wear and tear on the joints and us being very restricted in our exercise choices…
Why would it mean this considering you can select the exact same exercises/rep and set ranges for a split and a full body but the only difference being how you split them up. If you listed everything you did for both over the course of the week without showing how they were organised they could be identical.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Plus that a 3 days a week full-body approach is generally more recovery intensive than even a 6-way (provided that the 6-way isn’t done with an excessive amount of exercises or with straight sets)…
Perhaps, but as I’ve said, less advanced trainees recover more easily anyway.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Which are totally overblown, or else you’d all gain so much faster than I or many others did during our beginner stages… And besides, OTHER studies have pretty much shown that the hormone response is overrated and generally fairly minimal.
On a split you can do 1-2 big exercises per day, for 6 or even 7 days in a row just fine… So? You’re arguing theory, and that stuff is only useful if it makes you gain strength for moderate-high reps faster without putting you at greater use of overuse injury etc when it comes to bbing…
I don’t agree that overuse injuries are anywhere near that easy to come by, especially considering the amount of people I know who squat and deadlift more often and not a one who has incurred an injury.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Only if that point is when you reach a 225 lb 1RM in the bench and MAYBE a 315 lb 1RM in the squat and deadlift…
And maybe that is the point, who knows?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
They aren’t? Who do you think is the general gym-going populace? The soccer moms? We a ton of kids on here, too… And again, if you simply refer to people who just don’t take training seriously, then why bring them up at all? The problem is not that they don’t train tbt, the problem is that they don’t eat properly, have zero intensity and need to be told to add weight to the bar or else they’ll forget about it completely.
The kids and the footie mums, yeah, both of those. Why bring them up? Maybe because the guy asking fits into the average kid category (or might)?
As for the food/intensity/progression thing, that can be a problem as well, but (as I have already said several times now and I am almost crying at having to repeat myself yet again), providing those things are in order, why would you not want to try several routines to find out what one works best for you?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Because most of them have tried several programs off this site, usually also multiple tbt approaches before and are… Surprise… Still beginners by the time they come to me.
Besides, I generally start them off with a 4-way or so because that is middle-of-the-road… They can generally decide for themselves whether they want to decrease volume or increase it and split things up more or less.
If I can have them gain strength as fast or faster on more exercises at the same time than practically all the tbt guys on here with significantly less wear and tear on the joints etc… Why not?
Edit: I’ve also used tbt with many beginners locally here in Germany. Various incarnations of it, so I have a decent idea of how people respond to it… And usually, it was way too limiting.
That’s fair enough, but all I can say is that I’ve seen the exact opposite of you.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
There isn’t a single split routine available in the articles here that I’d consider doing myself… Ever.
People can hate me for that statement all they want, but I really haven’t seen one on here that I think is great to use continually (or even short term… No sense doing random shit short term if you can do something else and keep progressing long-term) for anyone with average genetics who is looking to get as big as he can as fast as possible naturally.
Again, don’t you see what you’re doing here? You’re taking a ‘my way or the highway’ approach and refusing to acknowledge that other ways may work for different people.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Yeah, I’m sure that like all complete beginners you actually knew perfectly what effort and eating big meant. Certainly you got your 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in and were as intense as can be, didn’t party/drink all the time etc.
Care to show us what that bouncer-split looked like in detail?
As the others have said… Gaining 16 lbs in 8 months on any routine as a beginner is pathetic, so yeah, chances are you actually messed up somewhere.
I have always been quite certain to get enough protein in actually, and believe me, you’re speaking to someone who used to smoke a LOT of weed in his late teens. I know more about eating big than most people will ever dream of. I used to eat two bags of shopping in one evening when I was stoned. I’ll be happy to list the sort of binge I used to have if you want.
If I messed up, perhaps you can tell me where? I followed a split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder, and whilst I can’t prove my diet was OK, I would hope you would believe me when I tell you I was getting enough protein and calories in. As for the partying thing, I got most of that out of the way before I started training. I’ve been drinking for about 12 years now so partying/clubbing was no new thrill to me when I started training. I could give you a rough outline of what the split was like if you really wanted but it was a pretty standard moderate volume 8-15 rep per set multiple exercise four way split. I’m sure you could imagine it.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And what does that one look like + your diet?
I’ve gone for German Volume Training for a few reasons. It’s not the sort of thing I would normally do, but as I said, I’ve fractured my ankle and so I’m very limited in what I can do. I can’t do anything from a standing position obviously, and getting heavy dumbbells into position is impossible so I need to work with lighter weight, for the time being at least. Also safety is a concern, it’s a bit worrying for me working with heavier weight when I’m so unbalanced.
Anyway, at the moment I am signed off work so all I really have to do is sit at home with my foot up eating, so training more often breaks up the monotony a little.
I will list the routine and then explain my reasoning for certain exercise choices in case you?re curious. I’m doing an A routine and a B routine.
Chest/back A/B
Flat dumbbell press/Incline bottom position wide grip barbell press
Chins/Incline bench rows
Legs/shoulders A/B
Leg extension
Leg curl
Lateral raises/Rear raises
Arms A/B
Incline barbell overhead extension/Close grip bench press
Incline dumbbell curls/Preacher curls
It will be Chest&back/legs&shoulders/arms/rest. I could probably do with an extra rest day in there but it’s so boring being sat here on my arse I have to do something.
Anyway, exercise choices you might be curious about… the obvious ones are my legs. I am in a carbon fibre cast at the moment and even when I’m out, squatting and deadlifting are not going to be options for a long time due to the weakness from the fracture and the weak ligaments which are still incredibly badly torn and swollen. Curls and extensions are literally the only things I can do for my legs. I am only doing raises for my shoulders because too much overhead pressing hurts them. Any more questions then ask away.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Like anyone here says “don’t ever try anything else.”
I don’t understand why the debate then. All I’m saying is TRY and know for sure. What’s so unreasonable or hard to understand about that?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And come on. A clueless beginner doesn’t manage to gain much. How rare. He ultimately learns more about how to do his exercises, probably gets a little more intense in the gym, maybe starts eating better or not… And suddenly gains better. Oh surprise.
I don’t think that’s a fair comment given how much I read before I actually started lifting. I always put balls to the wall effort in from the very start as well. Ultimately nobody will ever know though.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
What? You dare flee an e-debate? 
Yes, I’ve spent about an hour this morning writing this reply so far and I didn?t want to stay up even later. Sorry!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I don’t know if this has been addressed before in the thread but:
Stop using the general gym population as a source for TBT’s superiority
I wasn’t, I was saying different people respond to different things. Must I keep repeating myself?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
For the OP:
All of this is bullshit, you should train daily every bodypart, if you can train for 24 fucking hours that’s the best motherfucking way, any other split comes from
1)morons who don’t want to get big because they’ll lose their hawt abz and a 35 dumbbell will spoil their manicure or
2) a weak bodybuilder who does only partial reps and is really pussywilled and doesn’t have the balls to change sissy split training for TBT.
How about debating like an adult?
Professor X wrote:
What would be the point of that?
The point? If none of you can easily find SEVERAL huge bodybuilders who got that way using TBT who started out skinny, then what relevance does TBT really have to those of us who do plan on standing out?
This is a bodybuilding forum. The ONLY thing that matters is RESULTS. All of this theory can kiss my ass if it isn’t working like that in the real world.
There is nothing funnier than reading threads where little people are giving other little people advice on how to get big…advice that no really big person would give all because they are regurgitating what they read somewhere.
That doesn’t mean TBT can’t build muscle, but it DOES mean that if most of the really big bodies on the planet were built using splits, then the LOGICAL course of action is NOT to do something completely different.
Also, if most of the split routines on this site would be avoided by the really big lifters here, then maybe some of you are getting your info from the wrong source.
You have completely ignored pretty near all of my last response to you which responded to this point you have just made. Why do you do this? I have noticed you do it to other people too. You completely ignore parts of their posts which inconvenience you and which address points you have to make.
In this recent post you said this:
“If none of you can easily find SEVERAL huge bodybuilders who got that way using TBT who started out skinny, then what relevance does TBT really have to those of us who do plan on standing out?”
I will now post my response to you which you completely ignored and which addresses your latest post:
"What would be the point of that? I have said repeatedly now (I don’t know why you people keep ignoring such massive parts of my posts!) that it gets to a certain point where splits become more effective than TBT, and obviously as a result huge guys will pretty much universally use splits. I am not trying to debate the merits of TBT over splits for guys who are already advanced.
Seriously, I have said it repeatedly so why are you ignoring it? I am saying I think for many people at an earlier stage of development that TBT will give better gains. I am not saying that Ronnie Coleman and his close personal friends all do TBT. I really, honestly cannot understand why people can’t seem to understand what I’m saying."
Maybe you will read and respond to it this time. If you don’t then I don’t really see why I should put the effort in responding to all of your posts if you won’t extend to me the same courtesy.
I will also re-post another reply to you and your ‘do what the big boys do and don’t try anything else’ mentality:
“OK, let’s use me as an example. I started off at 144lbs (5’10”) training with a 4 day split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder/bouncer. I gained quite poorly on ot despite busting my ass really hard and eating like mad. I then followed a routine I read on T-Nation. Can’t remember what one, but it was a split routine.
In 8 months I went up to a whopping 160. Going by your logic I shouldn’t have tried anything else because I was doing what the big boys do, I was putting in the effort in, eating enough calories (because I was gaining fat as well), yet my gains were sub-optimal. But according to you I should’ve kept at it because it’s the thing all the big boys do.
Soon as I started messing about with TBT and two way split I went up to 210 in less than a couple of years without gaining any more fat and I started gaining strength at a far greater rate, and I noticed in the mirror myself getting bigger.
Going by your logic I would’ve continued growing at a poor rate because I would never have tried anything else. No thanks.
Anyway, I’ve been out of training for 15 months and am getting back to where I was before now (albeit with a fractured ankle so no squatting and deadlifting for a long time), but as always I like to keep an open mind (and am currently doing a three way split in fact! Shock horror!) and will continue to look at what everybody else does and keep the stuff that works and discontinue the stuff that doesn’t.
You feel free to keep living in your little bubble though. I know you’re a huge guy, but you know what? You don’t absolutely know for sure you wouldn’t have got bigger, faster if you’d tried something else, you just THINK you wouldn’t have. Surely you must be willing to acknowledge you don’t know for sure, at least?"
Again, I will ask: are you saying that you do not think it’s a good idea to try different routines and find one that works optimally for you, particularly if your current one isn’t doing the business? If so, then what is your objection to me suggesting that someone TRIES both splits and TBT so they KNOW what works best for them?
OK, that post took me ages to write and I’m not too keen on doing another one so if people could keep their replies to me small it would be appreciated. Thanks!
[/quote]
Holy shit.
If the TBT vs. Split threads were banned on T-Nation I bet we’d lose half the people who post on here. It’s like guilty pleasure for everyone 
Relating to the topic: I don’t understand how people still think anything less than a 3 or 4 way split is just useless for bodybuilding. Why do people do their best to ignore DC training and its success?
The DC guys train for 3-4 hours a week/3 days a week + simple cardio. They use a 2 way split, which has them pairing big muscle groups like chest and back. They might hit a muscle group with 15 REPS TOTAL (sometimes) + warmups once in a 5 day period - nothing else for that muscle group (well, plus the stretch).
And they make bodybuilders.
What I’ve written above almost sounds like a joke compared to traditional bodybuilding. It works like a charm though.
I type that not to start any arguments but so that people acknowledge that you can train 6 days a week with a 6way split or 3 hours a week with a 2way split and still become a big bodybuilder. If anybody tells you the classical 5way split is the normal/only way to train to get big or you need at the very least 6 sets a week to grow then you can show them real world examples and tell them they’re wrong.
So, to the OP, there is no best split. You really need to try stuff out and see for yourself. Pick a starting point but don’t be scared to experiment.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
When did I ever use the word “most”?
All I said was “coughbullshitcough” in response to your statement “Lots of people WILL grow better with total body training then splits” and you freaked out.
Then I used your own words, but switched the two “Lots of people WILL grow better with splits than total body training.”
And you had no issue.
I never even used the word “most” in any of my posts.
Interesting. [/quote]
When did I say you ever used the word most? I never said that. What I said was a ridiculous blanket statement was refuting that lots of people will grow better with TBT than with splits. If that is bullshit then by definition you were implying that most will grow better with splits, since the implication is that virtually nobody will grow well with TBT if it is bullshit that lots of people grow better with it. Hopefully you understand the logic of this.
Had you taken a more moderate and open minded approach immediately and said “Yes, lots of people will grow better with TBT but lots of people will also grow better with splits” then I never would have taken issue.
[quote]Itchy wrote:
Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
lol you are such a weasel.
ok how bout this, I will put it exactly like you did.
“Lots of people WILL grow better with splits than total body training.”
Now if you still think that is the most ridiculous blanket statement you have ever heard, then guess what? Your comment is in the same boat.
Not at all, that’s a perfectly reasonable statement. I suggest you grab a dictionary and look up the difference between “lots” and “most” though, because it seems you’re a little confused on that point.
Professor X wrote:
I bet you actually think this is a good thing. My diet isn’t the exact same as it was even 8 months ago because I carry more muscle on me now and as such, my diet had to be adjusted.
Anyone not doing this has FAILED at one the most basic aspects of bodybuilding to begin with.
I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you and several other successful lifters follow vaguely the same sort of diet I do/did, i.e. making sure I got enough calories to grow and enough protein. I’m sure your “grabbing a big mac on the way home” isn’t exactly nutritionally calculated to the nearest gram of fat, but you’re not an idiot so you know you’re getting what you need to grow. It seems to work for Lee Priest in the off season, no?
BONEZ217 wrote:
The “shit genetics” part was supposed to be tounge in cheek. No one has the same genetics so it’s pointless to debate it. And I believe genetics has less to do with building an impressive physique than most people think (because everyone can make improvements to their own physique, genetics may factor in when making comparisons but that isn’t relevant to this case).
Still, if you gained 14 pounds and more than 15% of it was fat you were not eating properly. Newb gains are generous to EVERYONEE.
Maybe you still don’t know how to eat right, who knows at this point??
Again, why are people talking about this like it’s rocket science? It’s hardly the most difficult thing in the world to make sure your calorie intake is high enough to grow, you’re getting enough protein to grow and you?re making sure to eat enough fat and carbs. I love the way you’re still refusing to accept the possibility I just didn?t respond well to the splits. Yeah, that must have been TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
BONEZ217 wrote:
Since my post didn’t appear yet I can’t edit it.
Your comments about advance vs. beginners are silly. How do you know when someone moves from the beginner to intermediate to advanced stage? You don’t. Because you don’t know someones max potetial right from the start.
Anyone, at any age, can use a split with sucess. Volume should be adjusted according to training age (IMO) but choosing when to train which body parts is irrelevant to age, sex, and experience.
And lots of people can use and have used TBT with success, yet you seem to be ignoring this.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, my bad, LOTS of people will grow better on it… We’ll get to that below.
Oh goody, can’t wait!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
A couple of years or less? If you are still a beginner after a bunch of years of training, then you’ve messed up. No matter what routine you did. It’s likely not even the routine’s fault.
Beginner or intermediate. And don’t forget some people have lives outside of the gym which make it difficult to make optimal progress.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Really. 99 percent of the posts of “ABBH/TBT/whatever results” show people who’ve done these routines for the 3-weeks or however long they’re supposed to be done… And gain practically nothing. Surprise. +5 or +10 lbs on your lifts make jackshit of a difference.
You obviously haven?t read the same threads I have then. And again, why are you twisting what I’ve said? I wouldn’t expect most posters here to gain better from TBT because they’re already more advanced and ready for a more advanced routine. I will say AGAIN go over to MH and you will see something totally different. Why are you insisting on ignoring this very simple point that I am arguing mainly for beginners and early intermediates? Is it just so that you can argue?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, men’s health guys… Wait, isn’t this the bodybuilding forum?
Yes, it is, and therefore it is likely that the majority of routines favoured here will be splits. But not every single poster here is an advanced or even intermediate lifter, so that doesn’t mean an advanced split will always work best, no matter what you might think.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Joe average huh… Do you mean “guys who lack any and all intensity in the gym and look the same year in year out” ?
Who the hell gives a damn about what people with no serious intentions to make progress in the gym do? They can do whatever they want, they make little to no progress past maybe beginner gains anyway.
Or do you mean “most beginners” ?
Bingo!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I used to be joe below-average. Professor X used to be that, too. A ton of others as well. We got strong very fast via splits… May have been able to do it via tbt…
Thank you! Finally! That’s what I was after, just a simple acknowledgement that for some people there MAY be another way that works. Doesn’t it feel good to feel that mind just opening up?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
…but that would have meant more wear and tear on the joints and us being very restricted in our exercise choices…
Why would it mean this considering you can select the exact same exercises/rep and set ranges for a split and a full body but the only difference being how you split them up. If you listed everything you did for both over the course of the week without showing how they were organised they could be identical.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Plus that a 3 days a week full-body approach is generally more recovery intensive than even a 6-way (provided that the 6-way isn’t done with an excessive amount of exercises or with straight sets)…
Perhaps, but as I’ve said, less advanced trainees recover more easily anyway.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Which are totally overblown, or else you’d all gain so much faster than I or many others did during our beginner stages… And besides, OTHER studies have pretty much shown that the hormone response is overrated and generally fairly minimal.
On a split you can do 1-2 big exercises per day, for 6 or even 7 days in a row just fine… So? You’re arguing theory, and that stuff is only useful if it makes you gain strength for moderate-high reps faster without putting you at greater use of overuse injury etc when it comes to bbing…
I don’t agree that overuse injuries are anywhere near that easy to come by, especially considering the amount of people I know who squat and deadlift more often and not a one who has incurred an injury.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Only if that point is when you reach a 225 lb 1RM in the bench and MAYBE a 315 lb 1RM in the squat and deadlift…
And maybe that is the point, who knows?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
They aren’t? Who do you think is the general gym-going populace? The soccer moms? We a ton of kids on here, too… And again, if you simply refer to people who just don’t take training seriously, then why bring them up at all? The problem is not that they don’t train tbt, the problem is that they don’t eat properly, have zero intensity and need to be told to add weight to the bar or else they’ll forget about it completely.
The kids and the footie mums, yeah, both of those. Why bring them up? Maybe because the guy asking fits into the average kid category (or might)?
As for the food/intensity/progression thing, that can be a problem as well, but (as I have already said several times now and I am almost crying at having to repeat myself yet again), providing those things are in order, why would you not want to try several routines to find out what one works best for you?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Because most of them have tried several programs off this site, usually also multiple tbt approaches before and are… Surprise… Still beginners by the time they come to me.
Besides, I generally start them off with a 4-way or so because that is middle-of-the-road… They can generally decide for themselves whether they want to decrease volume or increase it and split things up more or less.
If I can have them gain strength as fast or faster on more exercises at the same time than practically all the tbt guys on here with significantly less wear and tear on the joints etc… Why not?
Edit: I’ve also used tbt with many beginners locally here in Germany. Various incarnations of it, so I have a decent idea of how people respond to it… And usually, it was way too limiting.
That’s fair enough, but all I can say is that I’ve seen the exact opposite of you.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
There isn’t a single split routine available in the articles here that I’d consider doing myself… Ever.
People can hate me for that statement all they want, but I really haven’t seen one on here that I think is great to use continually (or even short term… No sense doing random shit short term if you can do something else and keep progressing long-term) for anyone with average genetics who is looking to get as big as he can as fast as possible naturally.
Again, don’t you see what you’re doing here? You’re taking a ‘my way or the highway’ approach and refusing to acknowledge that other ways may work for different people.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Yeah, I’m sure that like all complete beginners you actually knew perfectly what effort and eating big meant. Certainly you got your 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in and were as intense as can be, didn’t party/drink all the time etc.
Care to show us what that bouncer-split looked like in detail?
As the others have said… Gaining 16 lbs in 8 months on any routine as a beginner is pathetic, so yeah, chances are you actually messed up somewhere.
I have always been quite certain to get enough protein in actually, and believe me, you’re speaking to someone who used to smoke a LOT of weed in his late teens. I know more about eating big than most people will ever dream of. I used to eat two bags of shopping in one evening when I was stoned. I’ll be happy to list the sort of binge I used to have if you want.
If I messed up, perhaps you can tell me where? I followed a split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder, and whilst I can’t prove my diet was OK, I would hope you would believe me when I tell you I was getting enough protein and calories in. As for the partying thing, I got most of that out of the way before I started training. I’ve been drinking for about 12 years now so partying/clubbing was no new thrill to me when I started training. I could give you a rough outline of what the split was like if you really wanted but it was a pretty standard moderate volume 8-15 rep per set multiple exercise four way split. I’m sure you could imagine it.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And what does that one look like + your diet?
I’ve gone for German Volume Training for a few reasons. It’s not the sort of thing I would normally do, but as I said, I’ve fractured my ankle and so I’m very limited in what I can do. I can’t do anything from a standing position obviously, and getting heavy dumbbells into position is impossible so I need to work with lighter weight, for the time being at least. Also safety is a concern, it’s a bit worrying for me working with heavier weight when I’m so unbalanced.
Anyway, at the moment I am signed off work so all I really have to do is sit at home with my foot up eating, so training more often breaks up the monotony a little.
I will list the routine and then explain my reasoning for certain exercise choices in case you?re curious. I’m doing an A routine and a B routine.
Chest/back A/B
Flat dumbbell press/Incline bottom position wide grip barbell press
Chins/Incline bench rows
Legs/shoulders A/B
Leg extension
Leg curl
Lateral raises/Rear raises
Arms A/B
Incline barbell overhead extension/Close grip bench press
Incline dumbbell curls/Preacher curls
It will be Chest&back/legs&shoulders/arms/rest. I could probably do with an extra rest day in there but it’s so boring being sat here on my arse I have to do something.
Anyway, exercise choices you might be curious about… the obvious ones are my legs. I am in a carbon fibre cast at the moment and even when I’m out, squatting and deadlifting are not going to be options for a long time due to the weakness from the fracture and the weak ligaments which are still incredibly badly torn and swollen. Curls and extensions are literally the only things I can do for my legs. I am only doing raises for my shoulders because too much overhead pressing hurts them. Any more questions then ask away.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Like anyone here says “don’t ever try anything else.”
I don’t understand why the debate then. All I’m saying is TRY and know for sure. What’s so unreasonable or hard to understand about that?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And come on. A clueless beginner doesn’t manage to gain much. How rare. He ultimately learns more about how to do his exercises, probably gets a little more intense in the gym, maybe starts eating better or not… And suddenly gains better. Oh surprise.
I don’t think that’s a fair comment given how much I read before I actually started lifting. I always put balls to the wall effort in from the very start as well. Ultimately nobody will ever know though.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
What? You dare flee an e-debate?
Yes, I’ve spent about an hour this morning writing this reply so far and I didn?t want to stay up even later. Sorry!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I don’t know if this has been addressed before in the thread but:
Stop using the general gym population as a source for TBT’s superiority
I wasn’t, I was saying different people respond to different things. Must I keep repeating myself?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
For the OP:
All of this is bullshit, you should train daily every bodypart, if you can train for 24 fucking hours that’s the best motherfucking way, any other split comes from
1)morons who don’t want to get big because they’ll lose their hawt abz and a 35 dumbbell will spoil their manicure or
2) a weak bodybuilder who does only partial reps and is really pussywilled and doesn’t have the balls to change sissy split training for TBT.
How about debating like an adult?
Professor X wrote:
What would be the point of that?
The point? If none of you can easily find SEVERAL huge bodybuilders who got that way using TBT who started out skinny, then what relevance does TBT really have to those of us who do plan on standing out?
This is a bodybuilding forum. The ONLY thing that matters is RESULTS. All of this theory can kiss my ass if it isn’t working like that in the real world.
There is nothing funnier than reading threads where little people are giving other little people advice on how to get big…advice that no really big person would give all because they are regurgitating what they read somewhere.
That doesn’t mean TBT can’t build muscle, but it DOES mean that if most of the really big bodies on the planet were built using splits, then the LOGICAL course of action is NOT to do something completely different.
Also, if most of the split routines on this site would be avoided by the really big lifters here, then maybe some of you are getting your info from the wrong source.
You have completely ignored pretty near all of my last response to you which responded to this point you have just made. Why do you do this? I have noticed you do it to other people too. You completely ignore parts of their posts which inconvenience you and which address points you have to make.
In this recent post you said this:
“If none of you can easily find SEVERAL huge bodybuilders who got that way using TBT who started out skinny, then what relevance does TBT really have to those of us who do plan on standing out?”
I will now post my response to you which you completely ignored and which addresses your latest post:
"What would be the point of that? I have said repeatedly now (I don’t know why you people keep ignoring such massive parts of my posts!) that it gets to a certain point where splits become more effective than TBT, and obviously as a result huge guys will pretty much universally use splits. I am not trying to debate the merits of TBT over splits for guys who are already advanced.
Seriously, I have said it repeatedly so why are you ignoring it? I am saying I think for many people at an earlier stage of development that TBT will give better gains. I am not saying that Ronnie Coleman and his close personal friends all do TBT. I really, honestly cannot understand why people can’t seem to understand what I’m saying."
Maybe you will read and respond to it this time. If you don’t then I don’t really see why I should put the effort in responding to all of your posts if you won’t extend to me the same courtesy.
I will also re-post another reply to you and your ‘do what the big boys do and don’t try anything else’ mentality:
“OK, let’s use me as an example. I started off at 144lbs (5’10”) training with a 4 day split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder/bouncer. I gained quite poorly on ot despite busting my ass really hard and eating like mad. I then followed a routine I read on T-Nation. Can’t remember what one, but it was a split routine.
In 8 months I went up to a whopping 160. Going by your logic I shouldn’t have tried anything else because I was doing what the big boys do, I was putting in the effort in, eating enough calories (because I was gaining fat as well), yet my gains were sub-optimal. But according to you I should’ve kept at it because it’s the thing all the big boys do.
Soon as I started messing about with TBT and two way split I went up to 210 in less than a couple of years without gaining any more fat and I started gaining strength at a far greater rate, and I noticed in the mirror myself getting bigger.
Going by your logic I would’ve continued growing at a poor rate because I would never have tried anything else. No thanks.
Anyway, I’ve been out of training for 15 months and am getting back to where I was before now (albeit with a fractured ankle so no squatting and deadlifting for a long time), but as always I like to keep an open mind (and am currently doing a three way split in fact! Shock horror!) and will continue to look at what everybody else does and keep the stuff that works and discontinue the stuff that doesn’t.
You feel free to keep living in your little bubble though. I know you’re a huge guy, but you know what? You don’t absolutely know for sure you wouldn’t have got bigger, faster if you’d tried something else, you just THINK you wouldn’t have. Surely you must be willing to acknowledge you don’t know for sure, at least?"
Again, I will ask: are you saying that you do not think it’s a good idea to try different routines and find one that works optimally for you, particularly if your current one isn’t doing the business? If so, then what is your objection to me suggesting that someone TRIES both splits and TBT so they KNOW what works best for them?
OK, that post took me ages to write and I’m not too keen on doing another one so if people could keep their replies to me small it would be appreciated. Thanks!
Holy shit.
[/quote]
I wonder how many meals he missed with that.
[quote]theceka wrote:
If the TBT vs. Split threads were banned on T-Nation I bet we’d lose half the people who post on here. It’s like guilty pleasure for everyone
Relating to the topic: I don’t understand how people still think anything less than a 3 or 4 way split is just useless for bodybuilding. Why do people do their best to ignore DC training and its success?
The DC guys train for 3-4 hours a week/3 days a week + simple cardio. They use a 2 way split, which has them pairing big muscle groups like chest and back. They might hit a muscle group with 15 REPS TOTAL (sometimes) + warmups once in a 5 day period - nothing else for that muscle group (well, plus the stretch).
And they make bodybuilders.
What I’ve written above almost sounds like a joke compared to traditional bodybuilding. It works like a charm though.
I type that not to start any arguments but so that people acknowledge that you can train 6 days a week with a 6way split or 3 hours a week with a 2way split and still become a big bodybuilder. If anybody tells you the classical 5way split is the normal/only way to train to get big or you need at the very least 6 sets a week to grow then you can show them real world examples and tell them they’re wrong.
So, to the OP, there is no best split. You really need to try stuff out and see for yourself. Pick a starting point but don’t be scared to experiment.[/quote]
What the hell are you talking about? Most people today will relate this to total training time in a week and are NOT running around telling people they need a certain number in terms of days on a split unless discussing BEGINNERS.
The average person working out less than 4 hours a week will look nothing like a BODYBUILDER.
Whether you flip that into 3,4,5 or 6 days is almost irrelevant as long as all bases are covered.
However, the average newbie does not need to be avoiding the gym 4 fucking days a week and comparing their recovery time to that of a professional bodybuilder who is lifting 4 times what they are is ridiculous.
You are not David Henry. When you lift what David Henry does and are carrying his level of mass, maybe you both will share similar recovery issues.
[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
I wonder how many meals he missed with that.[/quote]
Ha ha, took me about an hour and a half with my foot up whilst drinking a shake and eating a bowl of oats.
Believe me, I wouldn’t be posting anywhere near this much if I wasn’t off work stuck at home with my foot up with my fracture.
[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
I wonder how many meals he missed with that.[/quote]
Don’t care. I’m not reading through all of that shit though.
For other posters, unless your writing is jawdroppingly fascinating, quit with the 500 line novel posts. No one is going to read all of that because we have shit to do today.
Well, it appears that post was a colossal waste of time. Much like when I watched Home Alone 3 with that new kid that wasn’t Macaulay Culkin, that’s an hour and a half of my life I’ll never get back.
Fabulous.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? Most people today will relate this to total training time in a week and are NOT running around telling people they need a certain number in terms of days on a split unless discussing BEGINNERS.
The average person working out less than 4 hours a week will look nothing like a BODYBUILDER.[/quote]
Well, I don’t really know what you mean by average (genetics, training age?) but there are intermediate bodybuilders who do make it to advanced level with DC (yes, 3-4 hours of training a week). If you mean beginners when you say average, I agree.
[quote]Whether you flip that into 3,4,5 or 6 days is almost irrelevant as long as all bases are covered.
However, the average newbie does not need to be avoiding the gym 4 fucking days a week and comparing their recovery time to that of a professional bodybuilder who is lifting 4 times what they are is ridiculous.[/quote]
OK, I see what you’re saying and I’ll make sure that there’s no confusion for others reading this: My post wasn’t aimed at newbies/beginners. DC is not for beginners. I was talking about intermediate lifters and above - people who have put on good mass since they began resistance training.
You’re simply wrong here. David Henry is the biggest guy doing DC - everybody else who does the program has shittier genetics than him and that’s a lot of people.
DC training is not just for the Advanced Probodybuilder like you say here - it’s for the intermediate guy who has had maybe 3 good training years under him and put on mass while learning to push himself. You don’t have to be an incredible human specimen to do the program. I don’t know why you assume that.
The only reason I said what I said was because people (big guys, too) were claiming anything less than a 4 way split is not optimal (i’m not going to quote people, they’re in this thread somewhere). I just wanted to point out that that’s not necessarily true… for the non-beginner bodybuilder.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
I wonder how many meals he missed with that.
Don’t care. I’m not reading through all of that shit though.
For other posters, unless your writing is jawdroppingly fascinating, quit with the 500 line novel posts. No one is going to read all of that because we have shit to do today.[/quote]
Didn’t read either. I think that whether you’re from a pro bodybuilder posting on this site to a fucking troll posts should be kept brief, they are not articles.
[quote]theceka wrote:
You’re simply wrong here. David Henry is the biggest guy doing DC - everybody else who does the program has shittier genetics than him and that’s a lot of people.
DC training is not just for the Advanced Probodybuilder like you say here - it’s for the intermediate guy who has had maybe 3 good training years under him and put on mass while learning to push himself. You don’t have to be an incredible human specimen to do the program. I don’t know why you assume that.
The only reason I said what I said was because people (big guys, too) were claiming anything less than a 4 way split is not optimal (i’m not going to quote people, they’re in this thread somewhere). I just wanted to point out that that’s not necessarily true… for the non-beginner bodybuilder.[/quote]
DC is an entire training program. It is NOT simply about how many days you are training. It is HOW you do some of the exercises which includes extreme stretching which most people discussing basic split routines are NOT doing (this would also affect recovery time).
You say I’m wrong about David Henry and then go to prove my point that there are very few people anywhere near his size on that program. There are, however, literally thousands who understand how to put a simple split routine together who have gotten to his relative size. Mind you, I believe DC is a credible routine that obviously works, but that doesn’t mean you use an exception to prove a rule in terms of training frequency while ignoring that HOW the exercises are done is a huge issue.
I never even wrote that DC is only for advanced lifters. I wrote it is NOT for beginners and, frankly, if someone has proven they have the genetics to train less often yet still build more muscle than 99% of the human population on the planet, they can do whatever the hell they want.
Someone lifting what David Henry does will likely need more recovery time than someone who is even an intermediate lifter. If you add stretching into it like DC does, that adds even more to it.
Why would you even compare that to a split routine as if to prove that everyone can get away with training less often yet look like Henry?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
DC is an entire training program. It is NOT simply about how many days you are training. It is HOW you do some of the exercises which includes extreme stretching which most people discussing basic split routines are NOT doing (this would also affect recovery time).[/quote]
Well, I did write “15 reps total + stretches” - I wasn’t trying to ignore anything or just talk about frequency. I kinda assumed that people here know that when I say DC, I’m not just talking about any 2way split. I mean, it is the bodybuilding forum after all.
[quote]You say I’m wrong about David Henry and then go to prove my point that there are very few people anywhere near his size on that program. There are, however, literally thousands who understand how to put a simple split routine together who have gotten to his relative size. Mind you, I believe DC is a credible routine that obviously works, but that doesn’t mean you use an exception to prove a rule in terms if training frequency while ignoring that HOW the exercises are done is a huge issue.
I never even wrote that DC is only for advanced lifters. I wrote it is NOT for beginners and, frankly, if someone has proven they have the genetics to train less often yet still build more muscle than 99% of the human population on the planet, they can do whatever the hell they want.
[/quote]
Well, if you’re referring to people who succeed on DC training when you say “if someone has proven they have the genetics to train less often yet still build more muscle than 99% of the human population on the planet” then I think you’re wrong. So many guys were average genetics before and after they did DC, yet had some incredible results relative to where they started. Some of them probably didn’t even think it was possible. There are a lot of guys who compete at state/national level and they’re not pros but it’s obvious DC made them better.
That’s more my opinion than fact, though, so take it for what it’s worth.
[quote]Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
When did I ever use the word “most”?
All I said was “coughbullshitcough” in response to your statement “Lots of people WILL grow better with total body training then splits” and you freaked out.
Then I used your own words, but switched the two “Lots of people WILL grow better with splits than total body training.”
And you had no issue.
I never even used the word “most” in any of my posts.
Interesting.
When did I say you ever used the word most? I never said that. What I said was a ridiculous blanket statement was refuting that lots of people will grow better with TBT than with splits. If that is bullshit then by definition you were implying that most will grow better with splits, since the implication is that virtually nobody will grow well with TBT if it is bullshit that lots of people grow better with it. Hopefully you understand the logic of this.
Had you taken a more moderate and open minded approach immediately and said “Yes, lots of people will grow better with TBT but lots of people will also grow better with splits” then I never would have taken issue.[/quote]
Apology accepted.
[quote]theceka wrote:
Well, if you’re referring to people who succeed on DC training when you say “if someone has proven they have the genetics to train less often yet still build more muscle than 99% of the human population on the planet” then I think you’re wrong. So many guys were average genetics before and after they did DC, yet had some incredible results relative to where they started. Some of them probably didn’t even think it was possible. There are a lot of guys who compete at state/national level and they’re not pros but it’s obvious DC made them better.
That’s more my opinion than fact, though, so take it for what it’s worth.[/quote]
Dude, if someone makes progress that impressive, just how “average” do you think their genetics are? There are too many variables to factor into this to even attempt to make things that simple. I don’t know if people would label me as “average” in terms of genetics but I do know I didn’t grow much at all until I had access to significantly more food everyday. I blew up after that. If you blamed the training program for my progress you would be dead wrong.
The point was, if someone has shown they have the genetics to train less often yet still look like a bodybuilder, then they need to train accordingly. However, outside of DC training, there are very few people training only 2 or 3 days a week who would make people say, “DAMN” if they were seen in a tank top.
That is the point. DC should never be used as an example of simply training less often because the intensity forces the need of longer rest periods.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Apology accepted.[/quote]
Apologise for what?! You’re the one who’s making up stuff I never even said!
I expect an erotic photo of your testicles in my inbox as a way of making amends immediately.
[quote]Squelchy wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Apology accepted.
Apologise for what?! You’re the one who’s making up stuff I never even said!
I expect an erotic photo of your testicles in my inbox as a way of making amends immediately.[/quote]
Right back at you on the making stuff up!!!
LOL how do I take an erotic picture of my testicles? Throw some lipstick and blush on? hahahaha
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Right back at you on the making stuff up!!!
LOL how do I take an erotic picture of my testicles? Throw some lipstick and blush on? hahahaha[/quote]
What have I supposedly made up? I can quite clearly provide an explicit example of what you have made up, so please do so for what I have made up.
[quote]Squelchy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
A couple of years or less? If you are still a beginner after a bunch of years of training, then you’ve messed up. No matter what routine you did. It’s likely not even the routine’s fault.
Beginner or intermediate. And don’t forget some people have lives outside of the gym which make it difficult to make optimal progress.
[/quote] Eh? We have everyone from doctors and trauma nurses to soldiers in Iraq on here who all seem to manage fine despite the circumstances.
We’re all regular people… We all have jobs (some of us more than one).
Come on now, that excuse doesn’t wash. Even Ronnie used to be an accountant and then full time police officer for a big part of his career…
[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Really. 99 percent of the posts of “ABBH/TBT/whatever results” show people who’ve done these routines for the 3-weeks or however long they’re supposed to be done… And gain practically nothing. Surprise. +5 or +10 lbs on your lifts make jackshit of a difference.
You obviously haven?t read the same threads I have then. And again, why are you twisting what I’ve said? I wouldn’t expect most posters here to gain better from TBT because they’re already more advanced and ready for a more advanced routine. I will say AGAIN go over to MH and you will see something totally different. Why are you insisting on ignoring this very simple point that I am arguing mainly for beginners and early intermediates? Is it just so that you can argue?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, men’s health guys… Wait, isn’t this the bodybuilding forum?
Yes, it is, and therefore it is likely that the majority of routines favoured here will be splits.[/quote] Well, we had a big tbt surge due to Chad etc… That’s been a while ago, and we’re not seeing many impressive guys around here who used his approach… [quote] But not every single poster here is an advanced or even intermediate lifter[/quote]Again, that has so absolutely nothing to do with it… You can get a beginner strong fast even on a 6-way if you put it together the right way and he gets the food in at all times… [quote], so that doesn’t mean an advanced split will always work best, no matter what you might think.
[/quote] Advanced split? Where did I say that one uses and “advanced” split with beginners? [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Joe average huh… Do you mean “guys who lack any and all intensity in the gym and look the same year in year out” ?
Who the hell gives a damn about what people with no serious intentions to make progress in the gym do? They can do whatever they want, they make little to no progress past maybe beginner gains anyway.
Or do you mean “most beginners” ?
Bingo!
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I used to be joe below-average. Professor X used to be that, too. A ton of others as well. We got strong very fast via splits… May have been able to do it via tbt…
Thank you! Finally! That’s what I was after, just a simple acknowledgement that for some people there MAY be another way that works. Doesn’t it feel good to feel that mind just opening up?
[/quote] You really think we never tried any full-body training and dismissed it for good reasons, do you. [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
…but that would have meant more wear and tear on the joints and us being very restricted in our exercise choices…
Why would it mean this considering you can select the exact same exercises/rep and set ranges for a split and a full body but the only difference being how you split them up. If you listed everything you did for both over the course of the week without showing how they were organised they could be identical.
[/quote] I have addressed that in a different post. If my full-body session is suddenly an exact merge of all or even just half of all my upper body lifts from a 4+ way, the lifts done later in the session would suffer big time and you’d ultimately wear yourself out faster (need to deload/take time off).
Secondly, the joints and tendons have extremely limited self-repair abilities.
So if I do flat bench, shoulder work, etc (everything) heavy 3 times a week compared to doing each with significantly less volume per day once a week each, or even 3 times as well (but with obviously less overall work per session), what do you think is easier on the joints/tendons over time?
There are a LOT of people on this forum with elbow tendonitis, knee tendonosis/tendonitis and a blown shoulder or a blown low-back or whatever… Who are actually pretty much still beginners… They aren’t even benching 315 yet, or at most once, but their shoulders and elbows are already worn like those of a long-time american-football player…
Or, another favorite: Bicep tendonitis near the elbow from doing tons of weighted pullups every other day or some crap like that.
[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Plus that a 3 days a week full-body approach is generally more recovery intensive than even a 6-way (provided that the 6-way isn’t done with an excessive amount of exercises or with straight sets)…
Perhaps, but as I’ve said, less advanced trainees recover more easily anyway. [/quote] So what? You can still get the same or better results while taxing your recovery less… So why tax it more, just so you can do “full-body”? [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Which are totally overblown, or else you’d all gain so much faster than I or many others did during our beginner stages… And besides, OTHER studies have pretty much shown that the hormone response is overrated and generally fairly minimal.
On a split you can do 1-2 big exercises per day, for 6 or even 7 days in a row just fine… So? You’re arguing theory, and that stuff is only useful if it makes you gain strength for moderate-high reps faster without putting you at greater use of overuse injury etc when it comes to bbing…
I don’t agree that overuse injuries are anywhere near that easy to come by[/quote] Except that we get threads about tendonitis this or wrist-pain that all the time here[quote], especially considering the amount of people I know who squat and deadlift more often and not a one who has incurred an injury. [/quote] What are they squatting and deadlifting? 135? The vast majority of powerlifters have a whole bunch of injuries, so I guess the people you speak of are not part of that group. Who else, then? It’s not even like people usually like to talk about that or mention it… The average gym-rat keeps benching with their shoulders coming off the bench/rounded until their bicep tendon tears or their rotator cuff or bursa dies a miserable death. They’ll keep doing skullcrushers until their elbow pain becomes so severe that they can hardly do anything with their arm anymore… And THEN, when it’s too late, then they’ll mention it.
[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Only if that point is when you reach a 225 lb 1RM in the bench and MAYBE a 315 lb 1RM in the squat and deadlift…
And maybe that is the point, who knows?
[/quote] Cool. Just about everyone(male, except midgets, I guess) can reach that point within less than a year of serious training, and most who don’t do complete bullshit in the gym or kitchen reach that point within a few months at most.
Unfortunately, many here keep doing program after program, splits, full-body, no matter… And still don’t manage even those numbers after years of training.
[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
They aren’t? Who do you think is the general gym-going populace? The soccer moms? We a ton of kids on here, too… And again, if you simply refer to people who just don’t take training seriously, then why bring them up at all? The problem is not that they don’t train tbt, the problem is that they don’t eat properly, have zero intensity and need to be told to add weight to the bar or else they’ll forget about it completely.
The kids and the footie mums, yeah, both of those. Why bring them up? Maybe because the guy asking fits into the average kid category (or might)? [/quote] Do you know?
Even if, considering that he’s posting here, doesn’t he want to become above-average? What soccer mums and clueless kids do is irrelevant, they switch category the day they learn about training/eating properly. Again, why mention them? Those that remain in that category are never going to make much progress at all.[quote]
As for the food/intensity/progression thing, that can be a problem as well, but (as I have already said several times now and I am almost crying at having to repeat myself yet again), providing those things are in order, why would you not want to try several routines to find out what one works best for you? [/quote] You make it sound like all beginners should try a bunch of different routines and then pick one which they think suits them best. Ok.
How about you start on a time-proven approach and then you will pretty much realize by yourself what modifications are necessary to make it work best for you instead of trying stuff at random? Again, how many routines/systems are featured in the articles here that don’t tell you to “switch routines” after 3-8 weeks or so? There is little to no long-term stuff on here at all, a beginner will end up (and just about all of them do! That has always been a big problem on here) switching routines all the time while learning exactly jackshit. And making mediocre progress at best, likely none past beginner gains.[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Because most of them have tried several programs off this site, usually also multiple tbt approaches before and are… Surprise… Still beginners by the time they come to me.
Besides, I generally start them off with a 4-way or so because that is middle-of-the-road… They can generally decide for themselves whether they want to decrease volume or increase it and split things up more or less.
If I can have them gain strength as fast or faster on more exercises at the same time than practically all the tbt guys on here with significantly less wear and tear on the joints etc… Why not?
Edit: I’ve also used tbt with many beginners locally here in Germany. Various incarnations of it, so I have a decent idea of how people respond to it… And usually, it was way too limiting.
That’s fair enough, but all I can say is that I’ve seen the exact opposite of you.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
There isn’t a single split routine available in the articles here that I’d consider doing myself… Ever.
People can hate me for that statement all they want, but I really haven’t seen one on here that I think is great to use continually (or even short term… No sense doing random shit short term if you can do something else and keep progressing long-term) for anyone with average genetics who is looking to get as big as he can as fast as possible naturally.
Again, don’t you see what you’re doing here? You’re taking a ‘my way or the highway’ approach and refusing to acknowledge that other ways may work for different people.[/quote] It’s not about “other ways”, there are quite frankly not all that many approaches that can (and have) been used long-term with continuous success while keeping your injury free… For bodybuilding you have standard bb, dc and similar, max-ot (with some small modifications to keep the joints going, but it’s pretty much a mix between standard bb and higher volume bb) and such… Not many systems overall. and the high volume version of standard bb for the guys who have the genetics to progress well on it… (and those guys can progress on the other approaches just as well or faster, they simply have overall better genetics for this game than the average guy).
I KNOW that other approaches work for some other people.
If I try Bauer’s or Waylanders high-volume routines, my strength gain stalls. They, on the other hand, can likely gain on a lesser volume approach just fine (at least all the high volume guys I know personally or have helped with their training can).
I’ve been at this for a while, I dare say I know a thing or two about what is usable long-term and what’s not.
And quite frankly almost none of the "bb"routines in the articles here are even made for long-term. Except maybe for thib’s “system” they’re nothing more than exact routines with pre-selected exercises and pretty much always a ton of straight-sets and supersets…
None of them are made for/able to get you from 120 to 290+. [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Yeah, I’m sure that like all complete beginners you actually knew perfectly what effort and eating big meant. Certainly you got your 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in and were as intense as can be, didn’t party/drink all the time etc.
Care to show us what that bouncer-split looked like in detail?
As the others have said… Gaining 16 lbs in 8 months on any routine as a beginner is pathetic, so yeah, chances are you actually messed up somewhere.
I have always been quite certain to get enough protein in actually, and believe me, you’re speaking to someone who used to smoke a LOT of weed in his late teens. I know more about eating big than most people will ever dream of. I used to eat two bags of shopping in one evening when I was stoned. I’ll be happy to list the sort of binge I used to have if you want.
If I messed up, perhaps you can tell me where?[/quote]So you claim to have eaten enough… And yet you only gained 16 lbs in 8 months? Don’t you see a contradiction here? If you had eaten enough to make serious strength progress in the gym, yet didn’t make that progress… How come you didn’t gain 40-50 lbs of mostly fat? Maybe you (how old were you back then?) quite simply didn’t eat ENOUGH? Eating a lot is relative… [quote] I followed a split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder [/quote] Out of sheer curiosity, did he explain ramping to you? Did he write it down simply and let you go at it?[quote], and whilst I can’t prove my diet was OK, I would hope you would believe me when I tell you I was getting enough protein and calories in.[/quote] As I said above, if you got in enough protein and calories, you’d have gained 40-50 lbs in that time… And if the strength gains weren’t there, that would have been mostly fat. [quote] As for the partying thing, I got most of that out of the way before I started training. I’ve been drinking for about 12 years now so partying/clubbing was no new thrill to me when I started training. I could give you a rough outline of what the split was like if you really wanted but it was a pretty standard moderate volume 8-15 rep per set multiple exercise four way split. I’m sure you could imagine it. [/quote] There is a huge difference between a straight-set split and a ramping split… And then also a big difference in how you go about those straight sets or ramping. Huge difference for anyone of average genetics. So I say you either misunderstood the routine (or he forgot to mention a critical part of it) or he was one of those people who can actually make progress over long term on a high volume routine and you aren’t…(or the food issue talked about above was the problem) Has nothing to do with splits or no splits.
[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And what does that one look like + your diet?
I’ve gone for German Volume Training for a few reasons. It’s not the sort of thing I would normally do, but as I said, I’ve fractured my ankle and so I’m very limited in what I can do. I can’t do anything from a standing position obviously, and getting heavy dumbbells into position is impossible so I need to work with lighter weight, for the time being at least. Also safety is a concern, it’s a bit worrying for me working with heavier weight when I’m so unbalanced.
[/quote] Was just asking to make sure that you actually used a split that was somewhat decent. Of course your injury changes the equation completely, so ignore my question… [quote]
Anyway, at the moment I am signed off work so all I really have to do is sit at home with my foot up eating, so training more often breaks up the monotony a little.
I will list the routine and then explain my reasoning for certain exercise choices in case you?re curious. I’m doing an A routine and a B routine.
Chest/back A/B
Flat dumbbell press/Incline bottom position wide grip barbell press
Chins/Incline bench rows
Legs/shoulders A/B
Leg extension
Leg curl
Lateral raises/Rear raises
Arms A/B
Incline barbell overhead extension/Close grip bench press
Incline dumbbell curls/Preacher curls
It will be Chest&back/legs&shoulders/arms/rest. I could probably do with an extra rest day in there but it’s so boring being sat here on my arse I have to do something.
Anyway, exercise choices you might be curious about… the obvious ones are my legs. I am in a carbon fibre cast at the moment and even when I’m out, squatting and deadlifting are not going to be options for a long time due to the weakness from the fracture and the weak ligaments which are still incredibly badly torn and swollen. Curls and extensions are literally the only things I can do for my legs. I am only doing raises for my shoulders because too much overhead pressing hurts them. Any more questions then ask away.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Like anyone here says “don’t ever try anything else.”
I don’t understand why the debate then. All I’m saying is TRY and know for sure. What’s so unreasonable or hard to understand about that?
[/quote] You don’t need to try a lot of different pre-made routines… You can use a routine that is in widespread general use and make modifications as necessary instead… Chances are you’ll learn a lot more that way, gain a much greater understanding of how all this training business really works and you end up with something that needs only minor changes over the years and you can pretty much use from your beginner stage until your 50’s and beyond… Though that’s still not saying that you shouldn’t try certain methods that you may want to add to your own approach…
Anyway, I didn’t chime in because of that stuff. [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And come on. A clueless beginner doesn’t manage to gain much. How rare. He ultimately learns more about how to do his exercises, probably gets a little more intense in the gym, maybe starts eating better or not… And suddenly gains better. Oh surprise.
I don’t think that’s a fair comment given how much I read before I actually started lifting[/quote] Thousands on here read every single article ever published on this site and others and at the end still know not a thing about how to get huge/strong. You can get lucky and stumble across the guys/authors who truly understand bodybuilding… But more than likely you’ll just suffer from information-overload and learn mostly about details/fall for a million fads… [quote]. I always put balls to the wall effort in from the very start as well.[/quote] Really? You lifted balls to the wall the first day you stepped into a gym? Cool. I regret to inform you that you’re apparently the first and last of your kind, ever.
How the hell can someone who has never trained before go balls to the wall during their first session? You must be one amazing individual. [quote] Ultimately nobody will ever know though.
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
What? You dare flee an e-debate?
Yes, I’ve spent about an hour this morning writing this reply so far and I didn?t want to stay up even later. Sorry!
[/quote] I’ll forgive you this one time. Next time there’s going to be a “fleeing-fee” though… [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote: [/quote] I did not write this. You quoted someone else and deleted their name… [quote]
I don’t know if this has been addressed before in the thread but:
Stop using the general gym population as a source for TBT’s superiority
I wasn’t, I was saying different people respond to different things. Must I keep repeating myself?
Cephalic_Carnage wrote: [/quote] Again, I did not write this. [quote]
For the OP:
All of this is bullshit, you should train daily every bodypart, if you can train for 24 fucking hours that’s the best motherfucking way, any other split comes from
1)morons who don’t want to get big because they’ll lose their hawt abz and a 35 dumbbell will spoil their manicure or
2) a weak bodybuilder who does only partial reps and is really pussywilled and doesn’t have the balls to change sissy split training for TBT.
How about debating like an adult? [/quote] See above, you quoted someone else. [quote]
/Edited, goddamn quote function haha
Ok, last mammoth post, this debate has to end or we’ll crash the servers…
[quote]Squelchy wrote:
Had you taken a more moderate and open minded approach immediately and said “Yes, lots of people will grow better with TBT but lots of people will also grow better with splits” then I never would have taken issue.[/quote]
And that wouldn’t sound forced at all? That’s like saying
“We welcome everyone in this country, even terrorists! All people have a right to live, no matter what things they’ve done/are going to do!”.