[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
lol you are such a weasel.
ok how bout this, I will put it exactly like you did.
“Lots of people WILL grow better with splits than total body training.”
Now if you still think that is the most ridiculous blanket statement you have ever heard, then guess what? Your comment is in the same boat.[/quote]
Not at all, that’s a perfectly reasonable statement. I suggest you grab a dictionary and look up the difference between “lots” and “most” though, because it seems you’re a little confused on that point.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet you actually think this is a good thing. My diet isn’t the exact same as it was even 8 months ago because I carry more muscle on me now and as such, my diet had to be adjusted.
Anyone not doing this has FAILED at one the most basic aspects of bodybuilding to begin with.
[/quote]
I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you and several other successful lifters follow vaguely the same sort of diet I do/did, i.e. making sure I got enough calories to grow and enough protein. I’m sure your “grabbing a big mac on the way home” isn’t exactly nutritionally calculated to the nearest gram of fat, but you’re not an idiot so you know you’re getting what you need to grow. It seems to work for Lee Priest in the off season, no?
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The “shit genetics” part was supposed to be tounge in cheek. No one has the same genetics so it’s pointless to debate it. And I believe genetics has less to do with building an impressive physique than most people think (because everyone can make improvements to their own physique, genetics may factor in when making comparisons but that isn’t relevant to this case).
Still, if you gained 14 pounds and more than 15% of it was fat you were not eating properly. Newb gains are generous to EVERYONEE.
Maybe you still don’t know how to eat right, who knows at this point?? [/quote]
Again, why are people talking about this like it’s rocket science? It’s hardly the most difficult thing in the world to make sure your calorie intake is high enough to grow, you’re getting enough protein to grow and you?re making sure to eat enough fat and carbs. I love the way you’re still refusing to accept the possibility I just didn?t respond well to the splits. Yeah, that must have been TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Since my post didn’t appear yet I can’t edit it.
Your comments about advance vs. beginners are silly. How do you know when someone moves from the beginner to intermediate to advanced stage? You don’t. Because you don’t know someones max potetial right from the start.
Anyone, at any age, can use a split with sucess. Volume should be adjusted according to training age (IMO) but choosing when to train which body parts is irrelevant to age, sex, and experience. [/quote]
And lots of people can use and have used TBT with success, yet you seem to be ignoring this.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, my bad, LOTS of people will grow better on it… We’ll get to that below.
[/quote]
Oh goody, can’t wait!
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
A couple of years or less? If you are still a beginner after a bunch of years of training, then you’ve messed up. No matter what routine you did. It’s likely not even the routine’s fault.[/quote]
Beginner or intermediate. And don’t forget some people have lives outside of the gym which make it difficult to make optimal progress.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Really. 99 percent of the posts of “ABBH/TBT/whatever results” show people who’ve done these routines for the 3-weeks or however long they’re supposed to be done… And gain practically nothing. Surprise. +5 or +10 lbs on your lifts make jackshit of a difference.[/quote]
You obviously haven?t read the same threads I have then. And again, why are you twisting what I’ve said? I wouldn’t expect most posters here to gain better from TBT because they’re already more advanced and ready for a more advanced routine. I will say AGAIN go over to MH and you will see something totally different. Why are you insisting on ignoring this very simple point that I am arguing mainly for beginners and early intermediates? Is it just so that you can argue?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Oh, men’s health guys… Wait, isn’t this the bodybuilding forum?[/quote]
Yes, it is, and therefore it is likely that the majority of routines favoured here will be splits. But not every single poster here is an advanced or even intermediate lifter, so that doesn’t mean an advanced split will always work best, no matter what you might think.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Joe average huh… Do you mean “guys who lack any and all intensity in the gym and look the same year in year out” ?
Who the hell gives a damn about what people with no serious intentions to make progress in the gym do? They can do whatever they want, they make little to no progress past maybe beginner gains anyway.
Or do you mean “most beginners” ?[/quote]
Bingo!
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I used to be joe below-average. Professor X used to be that, too. A ton of others as well. We got strong very fast via splits… May have been able to do it via tbt…[/quote]
Thank you! Finally! That’s what I was after, just a simple acknowledgement that for some people there MAY be another way that works. Doesn’t it feel good to feel that mind just opening up?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
…but that would have meant more wear and tear on the joints and us being very restricted in our exercise choices…[/quote]
Why would it mean this considering you can select the exact same exercises/rep and set ranges for a split and a full body but the only difference being how you split them up. If you listed everything you did for both over the course of the week without showing how they were organised they could be identical.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Plus that a 3 days a week full-body approach is generally more recovery intensive than even a 6-way (provided that the 6-way isn’t done with an excessive amount of exercises or with straight sets)…[/quote]
Perhaps, but as I’ve said, less advanced trainees recover more easily anyway.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Which are totally overblown, or else you’d all gain so much faster than I or many others did during our beginner stages… And besides, OTHER studies have pretty much shown that the hormone response is overrated and generally fairly minimal.
On a split you can do 1-2 big exercises per day, for 6 or even 7 days in a row just fine… So? You’re arguing theory, and that stuff is only useful if it makes you gain strength for moderate-high reps faster without putting you at greater use of overuse injury etc when it comes to bbing…[/quote]
I don’t agree that overuse injuries are anywhere near that easy to come by, especially considering the amount of people I know who squat and deadlift more often and not a one who has incurred an injury.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Only if that point is when you reach a 225 lb 1RM in the bench and MAYBE a 315 lb 1RM in the squat and deadlift…[/quote]
And maybe that is the point, who knows?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
They aren’t? Who do you think is the general gym-going populace? The soccer moms? We a ton of kids on here, too… And again, if you simply refer to people who just don’t take training seriously, then why bring them up at all? The problem is not that they don’t train tbt, the problem is that they don’t eat properly, have zero intensity and need to be told to add weight to the bar or else they’ll forget about it completely.[/quote]
The kids and the footie mums, yeah, both of those. Why bring them up? Maybe because the guy asking fits into the average kid category (or might)?
As for the food/intensity/progression thing, that can be a problem as well, but (as I have already said several times now and I am almost crying at having to repeat myself yet again), providing those things are in order, why would you not want to try several routines to find out what one works best for you?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Because most of them have tried several programs off this site, usually also multiple tbt approaches before and are… Surprise… Still beginners by the time they come to me.
Besides, I generally start them off with a 4-way or so because that is middle-of-the-road… They can generally decide for themselves whether they want to decrease volume or increase it and split things up more or less.
If I can have them gain strength as fast or faster on more exercises at the same time than practically all the tbt guys on here with significantly less wear and tear on the joints etc… Why not?
Edit: I’ve also used tbt with many beginners locally here in Germany. Various incarnations of it, so I have a decent idea of how people respond to it… And usually, it was way too limiting.[/quote]
That’s fair enough, but all I can say is that I’ve seen the exact opposite of you.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
There isn’t a single split routine available in the articles here that I’d consider doing myself… Ever.
People can hate me for that statement all they want, but I really haven’t seen one on here that I think is great to use continually (or even short term… No sense doing random shit short term if you can do something else and keep progressing long-term) for anyone with average genetics who is looking to get as big as he can as fast as possible naturally.[/quote]
Again, don’t you see what you’re doing here? You’re taking a ‘my way or the highway’ approach and refusing to acknowledge that other ways may work for different people.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Yeah, I’m sure that like all complete beginners you actually knew perfectly what effort and eating big meant. Certainly you got your 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight in and were as intense as can be, didn’t party/drink all the time etc.
Care to show us what that bouncer-split looked like in detail?
As the others have said… Gaining 16 lbs in 8 months on any routine as a beginner is pathetic, so yeah, chances are you actually messed up somewhere.[/quote]
I have always been quite certain to get enough protein in actually, and believe me, you’re speaking to someone who used to smoke a LOT of weed in his late teens. I know more about eating big than most people will ever dream of. I used to eat two bags of shopping in one evening when I was stoned. I’ll be happy to list the sort of binge I used to have if you want.
If I messed up, perhaps you can tell me where? I followed a split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder, and whilst I can’t prove my diet was OK, I would hope you would believe me when I tell you I was getting enough protein and calories in. As for the partying thing, I got most of that out of the way before I started training. I’ve been drinking for about 12 years now so partying/clubbing was no new thrill to me when I started training. I could give you a rough outline of what the split was like if you really wanted but it was a pretty standard moderate volume 8-15 rep per set multiple exercise four way split. I’m sure you could imagine it.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And what does that one look like + your diet?[/quote]
I’ve gone for German Volume Training for a few reasons. It’s not the sort of thing I would normally do, but as I said, I’ve fractured my ankle and so I’m very limited in what I can do. I can’t do anything from a standing position obviously, and getting heavy dumbbells into position is impossible so I need to work with lighter weight, for the time being at least. Also safety is a concern, it’s a bit worrying for me working with heavier weight when I’m so unbalanced.
Anyway, at the moment I am signed off work so all I really have to do is sit at home with my foot up eating, so training more often breaks up the monotony a little.
I will list the routine and then explain my reasoning for certain exercise choices in case you?re curious. I’m doing an A routine and a B routine.
Chest/back A/B
Flat dumbbell press/Incline bottom position wide grip barbell press
Chins/Incline bench rows
Legs/shoulders A/B
Leg extension
Leg curl
Lateral raises/Rear raises
Arms A/B
Incline barbell overhead extension/Close grip bench press
Incline dumbbell curls/Preacher curls
It will be Chest&back/legs&shoulders/arms/rest. I could probably do with an extra rest day in there but it’s so boring being sat here on my arse I have to do something.
Anyway, exercise choices you might be curious about… the obvious ones are my legs. I am in a carbon fibre cast at the moment and even when I’m out, squatting and deadlifting are not going to be options for a long time due to the weakness from the fracture and the weak ligaments which are still incredibly badly torn and swollen. Curls and extensions are literally the only things I can do for my legs. I am only doing raises for my shoulders because too much overhead pressing hurts them. Any more questions then ask away.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Like anyone here says “don’t ever try anything else.”[/quote]
I don’t understand why the debate then. All I’m saying is TRY and know for sure. What’s so unreasonable or hard to understand about that?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And come on. A clueless beginner doesn’t manage to gain much. How rare. He ultimately learns more about how to do his exercises, probably gets a little more intense in the gym, maybe starts eating better or not… And suddenly gains better. Oh surprise.[/quote]
I don’t think that’s a fair comment given how much I read before I actually started lifting. I always put balls to the wall effort in from the very start as well. Ultimately nobody will ever know though.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
What? You dare flee an e-debate? ;)[/quote]
Yes, I’ve spent about an hour this morning writing this reply so far and I didn?t want to stay up even later. Sorry!
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I don’t know if this has been addressed before in the thread but:
Stop using the general gym population as a source for TBT’s superiority[/quote]
I wasn’t, I was saying different people respond to different things. Must I keep repeating myself?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
For the OP:
All of this is bullshit, you should train daily every bodypart, if you can train for 24 fucking hours that’s the best motherfucking way, any other split comes from
1)morons who don’t want to get big because they’ll lose their hawt abz and a 35 dumbbell will spoil their manicure or
2) a weak bodybuilder who does only partial reps and is really pussywilled and doesn’t have the balls to change sissy split training for TBT. [/quote]
How about debating like an adult?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
What would be the point of that?
The point? If none of you can easily find SEVERAL huge bodybuilders who got that way using TBT who started out skinny, then what relevance does TBT really have to those of us who do plan on standing out?
This is a bodybuilding forum. The ONLY thing that matters is RESULTS. All of this theory can kiss my ass if it isn’t working like that in the real world.
There is nothing funnier than reading threads where little people are giving other little people advice on how to get big…advice that no really big person would give all because they are regurgitating what they read somewhere.
That doesn’t mean TBT can’t build muscle, but it DOES mean that if most of the really big bodies on the planet were built using splits, then the LOGICAL course of action is NOT to do something completely different.
Also, if most of the split routines on this site would be avoided by the really big lifters here, then maybe some of you are getting your info from the wrong source.[/quote]
You have completely ignored pretty near all of my last response to you which responded to this point you have just made. Why do you do this? I have noticed you do it to other people too. You completely ignore parts of their posts which inconvenience you and which address points you have to make.
In this recent post you said this:
“If none of you can easily find SEVERAL huge bodybuilders who got that way using TBT who started out skinny, then what relevance does TBT really have to those of us who do plan on standing out?”
I will now post my response to you which you completely ignored and which addresses your latest post:
"What would be the point of that? I have said repeatedly now (I don’t know why you people keep ignoring such massive parts of my posts!) that it gets to a certain point where splits become more effective than TBT, and obviously as a result huge guys will pretty much universally use splits. I am not trying to debate the merits of TBT over splits for guys who are already advanced.
Seriously, I have said it repeatedly so why are you ignoring it? I am saying I think for many people at an earlier stage of development that TBT will give better gains. I am not saying that Ronnie Coleman and his close personal friends all do TBT. I really, honestly cannot understand why people can’t seem to understand what I’m saying."
Maybe you will read and respond to it this time. If you don’t then I don’t really see why I should put the effort in responding to all of your posts if you won’t extend to me the same courtesy.
I will also re-post another reply to you and your ‘do what the big boys do and don’t try anything else’ mentality:
“OK, let’s use me as an example. I started off at 144lbs (5’10”) training with a 4 day split routine given to me by a competing bodybuilder/bouncer. I gained quite poorly on ot despite busting my ass really hard and eating like mad. I then followed a routine I read on T-Nation. Can’t remember what one, but it was a split routine.
In 8 months I went up to a whopping 160. Going by your logic I shouldn’t have tried anything else because I was doing what the big boys do, I was putting in the effort in, eating enough calories (because I was gaining fat as well), yet my gains were sub-optimal. But according to you I should’ve kept at it because it’s the thing all the big boys do.
Soon as I started messing about with TBT and two way split I went up to 210 in less than a couple of years without gaining any more fat and I started gaining strength at a far greater rate, and I noticed in the mirror myself getting bigger.
Going by your logic I would’ve continued growing at a poor rate because I would never have tried anything else. No thanks.
Anyway, I’ve been out of training for 15 months and am getting back to where I was before now (albeit with a fractured ankle so no squatting and deadlifting for a long time), but as always I like to keep an open mind (and am currently doing a three way split in fact! Shock horror!) and will continue to look at what everybody else does and keep the stuff that works and discontinue the stuff that doesn’t.
You feel free to keep living in your little bubble though. I know you’re a huge guy, but you know what? You don’t absolutely know for sure you wouldn’t have got bigger, faster if you’d tried something else, you just THINK you wouldn’t have. Surely you must be willing to acknowledge you don’t know for sure, at least?"
Again, I will ask: are you saying that you do not think it’s a good idea to try different routines and find one that works optimally for you, particularly if your current one isn’t doing the business? If so, then what is your objection to me suggesting that someone TRIES both splits and TBT so they KNOW what works best for them?
OK, that post took me ages to write and I’m not too keen on doing another one so if people could keep their replies to me small it would be appreciated. Thanks!
