I’m sure from my frequent posting you all know I’m on starting strength trying to gain size etc etc (for 3 months now although the first one was really working on technique n such). I’m beginning to wonder if 3x5 is the best set rep scheme to gain size. I’m not trying to jump programs I still plan on just doing SQT BP DL or DQT OP DL alternating days I’m just wondering if there is a better rep scheme to be using for just pure size?
I just started forcussing more on tempo using 41X0, but its too early to notice results from that.
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
I’m sure from my frequent posting you all know I’m on starting strength trying to gain size etc etc (for 3 months now although the first one was really working on technique n such).[/quote]
How exactly has your bodyweight changed in the last two months?
There’s no universal “best” or even “better” plan. It what you see results from, when combined with the right nutrition. Some guys will grow on a more “powerlifter-type” training program while others grow well on a “stereotypical bodybuilder-type” program.
Waterbury had a good piece about the effects of different set/rep patterns.
Any particular reason? Just curious because that’s a pretty slow negative, which will influence the weight you use, which will play a role in your sets and reps. Everything’s connected.
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
Ahhhh why are you doing Starting Strength if your focus is on size?[/quote]
I thought Starting Strength was a really good program for beginners. I definitely learned a lot about lifting. At the time I picked the book up my goals were for both size and strength. they still are, but I’m now thinking its better to focus on size first and then strength. The reason for this thinking, is I’m beginning to think with my increase in body fat, that I would have to overshoot my weight goal of 180/190 by going to 200/210 and cut back down by either doing strength work on a calorie deficit (and my weight would then even out) or doing a specific cutting routine.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
I’m sure from my frequent posting you all know I’m on starting strength trying to gain size etc etc (for 3 months now although the first one was really working on technique n such).[/quote]
How exactly has your bodyweight changed in the last two months?
There’s no universal “best” or even “better” plan. It what you see results from, when combined with the right nutrition. Some guys will grow on a more “powerlifter-type” training program while others grow well on a “stereotypical bodybuilder-type” program.
Waterbury had a good piece about the effects of different set/rep patterns.
Any particular reason? Just curious because that’s a pretty slow negative, which will influence the weight you use, which will play a role in your sets and reps. Everything’s connected.[/quote]
Chris I’d like to thank you for the many useful replies you’ve given me. You really seem to know your stuff.
I’ve gained maybe 5ish pounds in the last 2 months. Not a lot, I think my diet does have some room for improvement.
The reason I started using that tempo was because I started to really focus more on my rep quality and timing. I specifically didn’t do this before because I wanted to learn form and the basics of the lifts first and that tempo training seemed to complicated at the time. The reason for such a slow negative is because I read that extra time under tension is better hypertrophy and the article recommended 40X0 for size and strength and I just wanted to add an extra second at the bottom to dissipate a little of the elastic energy.
I thought Starting Strength was a really good program for beginners. I definitely learned a lot about lifting. At the time I picked the book up my goals were for both size and strength. they still are, but I’m now thinking its better to focus on size first and then strength. The reason for this thinking, is I’m beginning to think with my increase in body fat, that I would have to overshoot my weight goal of 180/190 by going to 200/210 and cut back down by either doing strength work on a calorie deficit (and my weight would then even out) or doing a specific cutting routine.
[/quote]
Starting Strength is good for beginners to learn how to get proficient at the basic movements. But it is a terribly unbalanced program. If you want to gain size (and strength) optimally, here are some things you should be doing that you’re currently not:
Horizontal pulling (rows)
Vertical pulling (pullups/pulldowns)
More for chest than just bench (i.e. incline fly variations)
More for shoulders than just OHP (i.e. lateral raise and reverse fly movements)
Direct bicep work, in the form of curls
Direct tricep work, in the form of at least extensions, probably also pushdowns, among other things
Quad work other than just squats (i.e. leg press, lunges, extensions, hack squat)
Hamstring work other than squats/deadlifts (i.e. stiff leg deadlifts, leg curls)
Also important would be direct calf and ab work
There are many ways to do this, and those exercises listed are just examples. Check the “Do this routine, not that dumb one” thread for lots of examples of programs. There are tons of other ones on the site too. Even a routine similar to Starting Strength, but with added in assistance exercises, can be quite good.
Also, you said your diet has some room for improvement. Fix that, that’ll make a huge difference. If you post what your regular diet is (what you actually eat in a day), we can help. Also, “I’m now thinking its better to focus on size first and then strength” doesn’t really make sense. You should still be focusing on trying to get stronger even if your main goal is now hypertrophy. You just need to actually work all your muscles.
530am - wake up
545am (maybe 6) - begin workout, either weight lifting or light conditioning depending on the day
830am - eat breakfast, 3/4lbs wild salmon, 1 large sweet potato cut and baked, shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex with milk, 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz)
1pm - lunch 1 large bowl of soba noodles, a kind bar and/or lara bar, shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex, 2 scoops garden of life perfect food, some bcaa powder, a bit of nordic naturals ultimate omega, milk, kefir, 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz).
6pm - 6 eggs, 1/3 cup (measured before cooking) steel cut oats cooked in milk
730 (or 8) - Yoga or Martial arts practice (2/3 days a week)
10pm - bedtime shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex with milk and fish oil and 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz)
I also stay hydrated throughout the day with coconut water and kombucha tea
My diet problem often is just simply cramming enough food down my throat to get all my calories in.
I’m open to changing my routine if that’s whats recommended. Can I get the link to the thread?
pretty sure Arnold said somewhere along the lines that you should build your strength first, then with your stregth, Build your size
basically stick with getting strong first, 5,3,1 is what im doing, and i love it!
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
I’m sure from my frequent posting you all know I’m on starting strength trying to gain size etc etc (for 3 months now although the first one was really working on technique n such). I’m beginning to wonder if 3x5 is the best set rep scheme to gain size. I’m not trying to jump programs I still plan on just doing SQT BP DL or DQT OP DL alternating days I’m just wondering if there is a better rep scheme to be using for just pure size?
I just started forcussing more on tempo using 41X0, but its too early to notice results from that.[/quote]
Wherever you start is simply that: a starting point.
From there, it’s simply about progressive overload and forced adaptation to those (progressively increasing) demands. Size is the result of this.
Squat
Bench
Calf Raises
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Barbel Glute Bridge
Barbell Rows
Lat Pullovers
B.
Deadlift
Military Press
Concentration Curls / Hammer Curls
Triceps Extentions / Dips
Lying Rear Delt Raises
Front Raises
Shrugs
BTW I workout at home so I have is a power rack, pullup/dip station and dumbbells[/quote]
Here’s a starting strength variation I have my nephew following:
A:
Squat, 3x5
Bench Press, 3x5
Pendlay Rows, 3x5
Lat Pulldowns, 3-4x5-10 (go by how you’re feeling, don’t kill yourself on these)
Tricep isolation exercise, again 3-4x5-10
Bicep isoloation exercise, also 3x-4x5-10
B:
Deadlift, work up to a top set of 5 taking 10% increments between sets.
Incline Bench, work up to a top set of 5, taking 10% increments between sets.
Lat Pulldowns, 3-4x5-10 (go by how you feel, don’t kill yourself on these)
Tricep & Bicep isolation, again 3-4x5-10
On the second A day of the week, you can throw in some standing shoulder presses or lateral raises.
This has been working very well. He is noticeably bigger, and much stronger, after 10 weeks. His last working weight for squats was 245 (started with 135), and he just hit a top set of 5 with deadlifts at 285 (first workout was 175). His bench went up 40 lbs to sets of 5 with 135. He’s gained ~7 lbs.
Edit: I just want to also point out that a big part of this program is to add weight every time you are in the gym. If you don’t hit 3x5 for your main exercises (squat, bench, row, deadlift), you MUST try and do more reps. Your time in the gym with these exercises should be brutal. Squats and deadlifts should have you out of breath.
Nutrition is also important, but I’ll let someone else deal with that.
[quote]leon36 wrote:
Starting STRENGTH is called so for a reason. If not it would be ‘Starting HYPERTROPHY.’ [/quote]
Arguing semantics is a terribly pointless idea, especially since the book’s full title is Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training.
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
I’m beginning to think with my increase in body fat, that I would have to overshoot my weight goal of 180/190 by going to 200/210 and cut back down by either doing strength work on a calorie deficit (and my weight would then even out) or doing a specific cutting routine.[/quote]
To clarify, what’re your exact goals (and timeline, if applicable) and where are you right now?
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
You really seem to know your stuff.[/quote]
This is a vicious rumor that’s been circulating the last few weeks. The sooner it ends, the better. Ha.
A quick review of your diet shows that you’re training in a fasted state and you’re not eating for a while after training. I don’t remember if we’ve covered this before, but even though you train shortly after waking up, that’s a perfect time to throw back a 500+ calorie protein and carb (low to no fat) shake. That alone could give your progress a bump.
Gotcha. If you want to play around with a deliberate tempo, it’s fine. Like I said, though, just factor that into your weight, sets, and reps. The majority of programs (Starting Strength, Jim Wendler’s stuff, a bunch of others) don’t necessarily use that slow of a tempo because of how it influences the rest of the routine.
Mike Robertson had a pretty nice article about how to strategically use tempo training as part of a program:
Dave Tate also explained a little program he used based on a different kind of tempo training (total time per set, not per rep):
And just to throw a little more info your way and reinforce that different coaches have different-but-effective methods, here’s a bit where Thibaudeau talks about major progress coming from fast positives, not slow negatives.
(Also search the site for what he calls “The Perfect Rep.”)
[quote]leon36 wrote:
Starting STRENGTH is called so for a reason. If not it would be ‘Starting HYPERTROPHY.’ [/quote]
Arguing semantics is a terribly pointless idea, especially since the book’s full title is Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training.
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
I’m beginning to think with my increase in body fat, that I would have to overshoot my weight goal of 180/190 by going to 200/210 and cut back down by either doing strength work on a calorie deficit (and my weight would then even out) or doing a specific cutting routine.[/quote]
To clarify, what’re your exact goals (and timeline, if applicable) and where are you right now?
[quote]dreadlocks1221 wrote:
You really seem to know your stuff.[/quote]
This is a vicious rumor that’s been circulating the last few weeks. The sooner it ends, the better. Ha.
A quick review of your diet shows that you’re training in a fasted state and you’re not eating for a while after training. I don’t remember if we’ve covered this before, but even though you train shortly after waking up, that’s a perfect time to throw back a 500+ calorie protein and carb (low to no fat) shake. That alone could give your progress a bump.
Gotcha. If you want to play around with a deliberate tempo, it’s fine. Like I said, though, just factor that into your weight, sets, and reps. The majority of programs (Starting Strength, Jim Wendler’s stuff, a bunch of others) don’t necessarily use that slow of a tempo because of how it influences the rest of the routine.
Mike Robertson had a pretty nice article about how to strategically use tempo training as part of a program:
Dave Tate also explained a little program he used based on a different kind of tempo training (total time per set, not per rep):
And just to throw a little more info your way and reinforce that different coaches have different-but-effective methods, here’s a bit where Thibaudeau talks about major progress coming from fast positives, not slow negatives.
(Also search the site for what he calls “The Perfect Rep.”)[/quote]
Goals:
180 - 190 lbs, lean as possible
Squat: 6x bodyweight, Bench: 4x Body Weight, Deadlift: 7x+ bodyweight (In my dreams I can DL a grand).
Timeline: however long it takes (Prefereably like to reach my weight goal by early next year).
Part of the dilema with eating carbs before training, is that I don’t have a lot of time to sit around and wait for my food to digest. I tried those fast carbs like Maltodextrin and didn’t really react well to it. Could I just toss some rolled oats into my shake or are those too slow to be working out with 20 minutes later? Workouts are usually an hour to an hour and a half
530am - wake up
545am (maybe 6) - begin workout, either weight lifting or light conditioning depending on the day
830am - eat breakfast, 3/4lbs wild salmon, 1 large sweet potato cut and baked, shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex with milk, 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz)
1pm - lunch 1 large bowl of soba noodles, a kind bar and/or lara bar, shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex, 2 scoops garden of life perfect food, some bcaa powder, a bit of nordic naturals ultimate omega, milk, kefir, 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz).
6pm - 6 eggs, 1/3 cup (measured before cooking) steel cut oats cooked in milk
730 (or 8) - Yoga or Martial arts practice (2/3 days a week)
10pm - bedtime shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex with milk and fish oil and 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz)
I also stay hydrated throughout the day with coconut water and kombucha tea
My diet problem often is just simply cramming enough food down my throat to get all my calories in.
I’m open to changing my routine if that’s whats recommended. Can I get the link to the thread? [/quote]
I wish I could go through pro complex like this and afford it…
530am - wake up
545am (maybe 6) - begin workout, either weight lifting or light conditioning depending on the day
830am - eat breakfast, 3/4lbs wild salmon, 1 large sweet potato cut and baked, shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex with milk, 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz)
1pm - lunch 1 large bowl of soba noodles, a kind bar and/or lara bar, shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex, 2 scoops garden of life perfect food, some bcaa powder, a bit of nordic naturals ultimate omega, milk, kefir, 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz).
6pm - 6 eggs, 1/3 cup (measured before cooking) steel cut oats cooked in milk
730 (or 8) - Yoga or Martial arts practice (2/3 days a week)
10pm - bedtime shake (2 scoops Optimum nutrition pro complex with milk and fish oil and 3 tablespoons peanut butter, roughly 24oz)
I also stay hydrated throughout the day with coconut water and kombucha tea
My diet problem often is just simply cramming enough food down my throat to get all my calories in.
I’m open to changing my routine if that’s whats recommended. Can I get the link to the thread? [/quote]
I wish I could go through pro complex like this and afford it…[/quote]
Do you buy on amamzon? Its much cheaper there. Also I had a friend who used to work at GNC tell me that GNC brand pro complex is made by Optimum nutrition as well