Found a vid of op benching^^
Seriously though, get on over to youtube or elitefts and check out the “So you think you can bench” series.
[quote]Samir wrote:
I tore my rotator cuff because of lack of “down and back”. Believe me, keep going and you’ll learn the lesson eventually.
Down and back feels like 2nd nature after about 2.5 weeks of practice. I’d say, without seeing a video of your bench, which I suspect sucks horribly, you should practice retracting your scapula 3-5 times a day and making the pressing motion. Some mobility work on your shoulders wouldn’t hurt either - I like to stretch mine out all the time too. [/quote]
Not saying you shouldn’t back down if you have persistent pain, but I see too many people lately that cry because they are a little bit sore or their joints are a little bit tender.
It was only soreness; in the teres minor; the infraspinatus was hardly sore at all.
My question was why would it get sore during BP. If it gets sore, it means it “works” (which, I’d guess, is a good thing; except when it actually shouldn’t); but, since I’ve learnt that training bench does not train your rotators, I don’t quite get it. Might it be because my rotators are up to snuff and the body is able to correctly activate them during the BP?
Also, tonight I’ll try neutral/down and back. (i.e. not exaggerated “down”)
It apparently allows lifting with less crackling than even up and back. BUT.
What does “down” mean? A bit lower than neutral, or so “down” that you feel a stretch in your traps. I’m starting to think my problems came from an exaggerated “down” (I felt a little pain somewhere around my collar bone, that’s how much I stretched the upper traps)
Will also take a vid tonight of my BP form.
Thank you very much,
Eisen
Stick your chest out, pull your shoulders back, and flex your lats. This should more or less put you in the right position.
Your external rotator muscles are probably sore from stabilizing the weight. If you are properly pulling the bar apart and bending the bar then you should be getting quite a bit of tension in your back muscles. Chances are it was just your smaller muscles not used to the type of work being placed on them. As long as it’s not painful (I don’t mean sore) then it shouldn’t be a problem.
Thank you. That’s the position in which it seems (by experimenting w/o weight) my shoulders feel best…
Realized why the Ext rotators got sore:
Close grip, wrists closer to the body than elbows. This created some torque in the shoulders, which had to be resisted by the ext rotators.
And no, my elbows weren’t “flared”.
^like this, only that the grip was a little narrower, and the weight one fourth of what KK uses.
[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
Realized why the Ext rotators got sore:
Close grip, wrists closer to the body than elbows. This created some torque in the shoulders, which had to be resisted by the ext rotators.
And no, my elbows weren’t “flared”.
^like this, only that the grip was a little narrower, and the weight one fourth of what KK uses.[/quote]
Dude, that is pretty much the definition of flared elbows, and like numerous other people including myself, it caused your injury.
My “injury” appeared ~7 years ago, when I first lifted for a while. And it wasn’t an “injury” (as in, acute), just that I developed pain in the shoulder. And not only during BPs… so…
Also, wasn’t elbows flared defined as “typical BB bench press style”, elbows wide out? (just asking). If not, then, technically speaking, one should keep arms parallel… which would reduce the max weight one can use by… a metric shit-ton?
Anyway, tonight I had my best pressing session ever.
Shoulders just “back” (instead of “up and back”), elbows tucked, kept everything tight, managed to get leg drive.
No pain, very little crackling, no feeling of grinding inside the shoulder. It’s too early, but if I can pull this off (pressing w/o pain), I’m going to be very happy.
And compete in a meet, hopefully next year, pressing (again, hoping to) > 120 kg / 264 lb.
btw
“Shoulders back” (considering good posture) feels 100x more stable (and, I could say, natural) than “shoulders down and back” and also feels more stable and natural than “up and back”.
Like someone else already said: Just go to youtube and watch “So You Think You Can Bench” series A HUNDRED TIMES and take notes. Nobody will need to answer anything for you after that because you’ll reinforce the improvements that you’ve already made a hundred fold. It’ll be a life changer for you training-wise.
EDIT: I just saw your other thread. You have to watch “So You Think You Can Squat” too. This is not a choice anymore.
If that’s you in your profile pic no wonder you have fucked up shoulders. Assuming it’s you, you have no external rotaters and no depth to your back.
Things to keep in mind. CT is not a powerlifter. Look at any high level powerlifter raw bench and you will NEVER see shrugged shoulders. Always down and back, not just back. Stop benching heavy until you stop all pain with a proper bench setup -down and back-
You mentioned that you pull more than you push? Last I checked no one can, everyone will have stronger internal rotators. This tell me your rowing form is not good if its better than your bench.
Shoulder health 101: Strong lats does not relate to safe shoulders. They are internal rotators.
You need to hammer your rear delts very hard, I don’t see any on you so make that and your lower traps a priority. I don’t see any erectors either so make sure you deadlift heavy and work on building up the whole back in general.
Since you should be dumping bench I’d recommend using db press with proper form, down and back, accordingly. If that hurts then use the floor press. If that hurts stop all pressing.
LOTS of facepulls, read delts swings, rows. Stop focusing so much on isolating the external rotators, you need to hit them in heavy movements. If you can press without pain then I’d do at least a 3:1 pulling pushing. IF you have pain hit the back hard and hit some accessory stuff that will help like bicep strength and drop ALL pressing. Good luck
Reading this thread has made me realized I’ve been “shrugging” more than I should when I bench, instead of just pulling my scapulae back and down. I haven’t had any shoulder problems, but it’s definitely something I’m going to experiment on tomorrow during my DE bench day.
VT, thanks for the feedback.
I can do a few strict 1A rows with 40 kg/88 lb, with body ~parralel to the ground. But I can only bench 80/176 once.
I can do a chin-up with 50 kg/110 lb strapped on (total of 121 kg/ 266 lb), I can only BB MP ~46 kg from the shoulders, and a bit over 50 if I push press.
DL: 168 kg/370 lb, PL squat: ~115 kg /253 lb (didn’t train squats until recently)
BW: 71 kg/ 156 lb
So, I can pull more than I can push.
Also, with shoulders “back” I can (for now) press -full range- without pain, crackling and feelings of tissues grinding against one another.
I’ve watched the “So you think you can bench series” and read pretty much every article on benching on this site. I really don’t care about hearing “down and back” anymore, it hurts, crackles and feels unstable and unnatural to me. If a month from now my shoulders will hurt -again-, fine, I’ll just give up benching and just do dips or do 1A angled BB presses.
Listen to the people that bench without pain and information from elite powerlifters. You sounds like an ass asking questions and disregarding the knowledgeable help. To be honest you should check your ego, drop the bench and build what was mentioned.
you pulling sucks, its weaker than your pushing and you not understanding that lets me know you need to stop benching, or keep doing it so you can never bench again. Take what you want, but until you can do back and down without pain youre doing it wrong and hurting yourself in the end. IF you ever want to get strong listen, if not then don’t waste our time. Hopefully you figure it out.
So… 262 dead hang chin-up WEAKER than 176 BP … 176 row for reps WEAKER than 176 BP for 1… yeah… my pulls are weaker…
Also, I take it that’s not you in the avatar?
btw, I do have ext rotators and rear delts.
.
Damn, VT, I re-read your post…
Your affirmation that it is impossible for one to pull more than they can push makes so little sense, one can really question not only your lifting knowledge, but also your common sense (i.e. you were just given an example of someone pulling more than they can push: ME).
This also goes for mistaking external and internal rotation strength for pulling and pushing strength.
You should read on… basic biomechanics (which motion is which), anatomy, photography, common sense, spotting the obvious, and so on.
88lb 1A row is not equal to 176 row, at all. Good try.
Lats are internal rotators. Read that again, you’re just proving you don’t understand anatomical functions. Pushing=internal rotation and pulling=external rotation (rowing not chins, dipshit). They are one in the same.
Feel free to try and justify what you do as right, it’s not. I work with D1 baseball players at Virginia Tech as well as the rest of the overhead athletes. There have been zero injuries since I have been working here and thats because I know my shit.
And more pics just proved you have no rear delts lol
Pulling is pulling, pushing is pushing. External rotation is NOT pulling. Chins are NOT pushing.
Aside from what everybody else said about form… I have a little shoulder pain as well and I’ve found just taking a little bit more time to warm-up and incorporating band pull-aparts while I warm-up really helps me for my work sets and I have little to no pain during my work sets. When I say a little more time, I do more warm-up sets than the 3 JW lays-out in 5/3/1.
Edit: CT’s method never worked for me either. Dave Tate’s So you Think You Can Bench is the best.