Beginner Workout

Training
41

I hate to have to explain this… The basis for my post was around collagen synthesis being improved by heavy core lifts and the articles are backing to the importance of collagen related ligaments, tendons, joints. We just have to apply this to able bodied people. We understand isolation movements promote growth of the tendons being worked. Kind of seems silly that I had to bridge that gap for you.

You seem to think I’m completely against isolation movements. The original argument was that I’m against bro-splits and for beginning with compound based movements.

So, my question is, How would you go about denying the fact that tendon/joint health is important, compound lifts support that (proven in studies) they increase collagen synthesis significantly (more so than isolation exercises).

I’m not against isolation work, but there needs to be compound work along with it.

42

I feel like I have to say one word. Stabilizers.

43

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I hate to have to explain this… The basis for my post was around collagen synthesis being improved by heavy core lifts and the articles are backing to the importance of collagen related ligaments, tendons, joints. We just have to apply this to able bodied people. We understand isolation movements promote growth of the tendons being worked. Kind of seems silly that I had to bridge that gap for you.
[/quote]

I’m not saying heavy core lifts don’t improve collagen synthesis - they do -but please note that the articles all back the benefits of isolation movements for improving said properties. So why would a program based on those be a bad thing?

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
You seem to think I’m completely against isolation movements. The original argument was that I’m against bro-splits and for beginning with compound based movements.
[/quote]

That’s fine. You should be aware that there’s more than one way to skin the cat, though, which was the reason for my long first post in this thread which, unfortunately, appears to have been lost on you. Too bad.

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
So, my question is, How would you go about denying the fact that tendon/joint health is important,
[/quote]

I wouldn’t deny that tendon/joint health is important. It’s exactly why I posted the first EliteFTS article. It is important. And some relatively smart people have pointed out that programs based solely on heavy compound lifts probably don’t do a great job addressing that. Speaking of which:

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
compound lifts support that (proven in studies) they increase collagen synthesis significantly (more so than isolation exercises).
[/quote]

Which “studies” have proved that? Again…the links you provided all described programs performed using isolation exercises.

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I’m not against isolation work, but there needs to be compound work along with it.[/quote]

Why do you assume that “compound work” is excluded from a bro-split? Don’t most guys start their leg day with squats (or a squat variation), their chest day with bench or a bench variation, and so on? Bro-splits can still have the compound exercises in them, you know. Most do.

44

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I feel like I have to say one word. Stabilizers.[/quote]

Are “stabilizers” not worked in bro-splits?

I would contend that a well-constructed split certainly works the “stabilizers” plenty. Have you ever performed a lateral shoulder raise with dumbbells? Did you feel that this was executed without the use of your “stabilizers” ? How about a front shoulder raise?

Split routines can include more than Nautilus machines.

45

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I can see where people are coming from. Ever since coming off stronglifts (which I progressed fine on) I’ve been mainly doing the big 3 with high sets and then working my back heavily with some sort of row or pullup.[/quote]

Why did you transition off stronglifts to what you’re doing?

Also, and I guess this might be the more important question, why wouldn’t you just have someone start with how you’re currently training? Why start with stronglifts then transition over, when you can just start with the more sustainable program, that more directly pursues your goals?

46

I won’t lie. I don’t even know why or what we are all arguing about anymore, I’ve lost steam.

I’ve never seen a “bro split” that began with squats, its usually leg press or extensions.

I could get behind a squat to isolation movements program and then a bench to isolation movements. I think I did that for a bit and liked it.
But i fancy myself a high set of just compound lifts, personal choice.

I’m actually on Madcow right now… I fell off the wagon and thought it would a good place to rebuild my strength and it has.

47

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I feel like I have to say one word. Stabilizers.[/quote]

LOL

Stabilisers get worked just fine on ANY split. Why wouldn’t they?

48

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I won’t lie. I don’t even know why or what we are all arguing about anymore, I’ve lost steam.

I’ve never seen a “bro split” that began with squats, its usually leg press or extensions.
[/quote]

Here’s a good, flexible split template that begins almost every workout with heavy compounds.

Literally, found this in 10 seconds using the Search function.

If OP is looking for a good split routine, this seems like a good place to start.

49

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I’m not against isolation work, but there needs to be compound work along with it.[/quote]

whoever said anything different to this?

50

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I’ve never seen a “bro split” that began with squats, its usually leg press or extensions.
[/quote]

then that is clearly your own subjective experience. I’ve seen plenty. I’ve even DONE plenty.

51

What the hell is a bro-split? What makes it different from a split?

I feel like the crux of the debate here is people using the same term to mean different things.

52

To me. The term bro split is chest, legs, arms, shoulders. Usually involving no compound or only bench as a compound. I love upper lower splits. I think I actually had my bench split with my lower days when it was at it’s strongest. I’ll get behind a good split. I still favor full body for noobs but it’s up to them regardless.

To answer the poised question “Why wouldn’t I put someone on what I’m doing”. Well, I’m on madcow which is linear progression and a noob would make better gains on stronglifts. Prior to me working on madcow I was training in a way that many noobs would most likely fail or become overtrained. An example of my old training was a 4 day a week split.
Heavy Squat 6x3
Heavy Bench 6x3
Heavy rows 3x8-12
I would end up with 3 squat days 3 bench days and a deadlift day.
I stopped using stronglifts because I wasn’t able to progress anymore adding that much weight a week.

53

Jesus Christ, cut the overcomplicated stuff, here is what you can do:

A good starting program is 5x5 - it teaches you the basics. The format of 5x5 has changed slightly, but this is a good foundation

Day 1:
5x5 Squats
5x5 Bench Press
5x5 Rows
1x5 Deadlift

Day 2:
5x5 Squats
5x5 Overhead
5x5 Lat pull down or as many reps as possible with a chin up/pull up

I personally found that 5x5 stopped working for me after 3 months, I like this progression better and found it works better for new people:
Work up to 1 set of max reps at a given weight. For example, say your squat max is 135lbs for 5. You will pick 95lbs as your starting weight. You will do 4 warm up sets or as many as you need, maybe: bar (45lbs)x 10, 55x5, 65x3, 75x1 for example. Your final set will be 95lbs which you will do for as many reps as possible. If you get more than 10, then on the subsequent workout you will increase your max reps weight by 5lbs, in this case it will be 100lbs. If you get less than 10 then you will keep this weight until you get at least 10. A good program might look like:

Day 1:
Squat
Overhead Press
Lat Pull Down/Chin Up/Pull Up
Extras

Day 2:
Deadlift
Bench Press
Rows
Extras

The extras are things you don’t need to do but might help nudge you towards your goals. If you have small arms, for example, one extra on 1 day might be bicep curls and 1 extra on another day might be close grip bench press. I wouldn’t do more than 2 extras personally. As you’ll end up wasting time with little returns.

54

He brought 5x5 up again. HE DID IT. IT WASN’T ME.

Btw ^ what i meant as bro-split

55

50+ posts later (some essay length) and the poor OP is probably now more confused than when he started

56

Be positive. Maybe poor OP learned something about collagen.

57

[quote]Iron Condor wrote:
50+ posts later (some essay length) and the poor OP is probably now more confused than when he started[/quote]
See my 1st post.

58

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
He brought 5x5 up again. HE DID IT. IT WASN’T ME.

Btw ^ what i meant as bro-split[/quote]
Lol. I really didn’t want to be part of this but:

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
Plot twist, I rarely even do 5x5. I’m more of a 6x3 person as far as strength gains go. If you were to take up bodybuilding. I’d recmomend 5x5 or 5/3/1 or any of the beginner programs based around the big three (Yes I’m aware many top levels use 5/3/1 still). Like I said, it’s to build a base. Nothing, to me, is worse than bro splitting because they want to become a bodybuilder. Do you see how many bodybuilders are getting injured constantly because they dose too high, use too little joint recovery “methods” and have poor form/ underdeveloped tendons that come from heavy lifting.[/quote]

Yup. Lots of juiced up bodybuilders constantly getting injured from doing “machine circuits”.

59

To the OP and other beginners reading this thread:

When someone makes a claim about something being “science” and proven by studies, research blah blah blah, ALWAYS READ THE SOURCE.

60

[quote]Iron Condor wrote:
50+ posts later (some essay length) and the poor OP is probably now more confused than when he started[/quote]

I would bet money he was never going to return regardless. This forum gets a ton of 1 post wonders, and I make it a policy never to respond directly until I see SOME sign that they’re going to comeback.

Of course, then we get the case where they drop the post bomb, let a thread roar on for a month, then come by for a second post to say “Thanks!” and that’s it.