Beginner Workout

Training
21

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I never stated nor do I believe linear programs are the only way. To the guy who poses the question “How does strong lifts auto regulate” Try to squat a weight that is too heavy, you miss it, you lower it. Autoregulate. I agree, I meant it as a beginning tool to learn the big three and build some sort of strength. I doubt a beginner would go more than a few months without stalling. But in a few months of being in the gym there is no doubt you would pick up on a few things, visit a few websites, ask a few people. Hell, if you’re lucky someone would see your terrible form and give you a few pointers.

As a powerlifter I prefer 5x5, muscle stability/control and learning proper extension is, to me, the highest priority for a beginner.[/quote]

I don’t feel that’s autoregulation if you have to fail before you lower the weight. Certainly not a style I’d like to use.

22

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I never stated nor do I believe linear programs are the only way. To the guy who poses the question “How does strong lifts auto regulate” Try to squat a weight that is too heavy, you miss it, you lower it. Autoregulate. I agree, I meant it as a beginning tool to learn the big three and build some sort of strength. I doubt a beginner would go more than a few months without stalling. But in a few months of being in the gym there is no doubt you would pick up on a few things, visit a few websites, ask a few people. Hell, if you’re lucky someone would see your terrible form and give you a few pointers.

As a powerlifter I prefer 5x5, muscle stability/control and learning proper extension is, to me, the highest priority for a beginner.[/quote]

Do you follow any sort of peaking protocol for a meet, or just stick with the 5x5 the whole way through and deload the week of?
[/quote]

I think there’s a second question cunningly hidden in there. Danger Will Robinson.

23

Plot twist, I rarely even do 5x5. I’m more of a 6x3 person as far as strength gains go. If you were to take up bodybuilding. I’d recmomend 5x5 or 5/3/1 or any of the beginner programs based around the big three (Yes I’m aware many top levels use 5/3/1 still). Like I said, it’s to build a base. Nothing, to me, is worse than bro splitting because they want to become a bodybuilder. Do you see how many bodybuilders are getting injured constantly because they dose too high, use too little joint recovery “methods” and have poor form/ underdeveloped tendons that come from heavy lifting.

24

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
Do you see how many bodybuilders are getting injured constantly because they dose too high, use too little joint recovery “methods” and have poor form/ underdeveloped tendons that come from heavy lifting.[/quote]

I honestly don’t see how stronglifts or starting strength address any of these problems. I may be biased because SL 5x5 is responsible for some of the least productive training phases I’ve had, but…

25

Well, a little research goes a long way. To put it simply without reciting and percentages or studies… Strength training involving multi joint functions has improved skeletal bone density, collagen synthesis, tendon growth / strength, promotes muscle control and proprioception. ot to mention heavy compounds also elevate metabolism for (I believe) up to 12 hours post workout.

26

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
Nothing, to me, is worse than bro splitting because they want to become a bodybuilder. Do you see how many bodybuilders are getting injured constantly because they dose too high, use too little joint recovery “methods” and have poor form/ underdeveloped tendons that come from heavy lifting.[/quote]

I actually look at this entirely in the opposite direction. Please read the following article…

elitefts.com/education/training/biceps-blowout-a-case-for-biceps-curls/

…and in particular note the following passages:

"You see, because of the paradigm and personal shift away from training isolated mirror muscles and instead opting to focus on the compound multi-joint money movements, I may have managed some indirect muscle growth and a good deal of strength, but I failed to pay my tendon(s) due attention. And this failure or treatment of the biceps curl as non-functional literally led to ultimate dysfunction.

I’d created a hidden weak link by way of a severe contractile to connective tissue size and strength disparity because of a well-intended and otherwise effective dogma prioritizing compound movements over isolation efforts if not abandoning single joint efforts altogether."

…and this one…

"It wasn’t biceps curls that caused the disparity that ultimately led to my last four months of misery and neither were compound lifts at sole fault either. It was the failure to bridge the gap between structure and function, isolation and compound, movements and muscle complexes.

I should’ve been consistently doing curls of some sort to some degree all along, not simply for the far too frequently flamed aesthetic reason but additionally for the underlying structural and functional integrity of the elbow joint. This latter motive being especially crucial, as the compound pulls got heavier and heavier and the muscles got bigger and stronger."

27

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
Well, a little research goes a long way. To put it simply without reciting and percentages or studies… Strength training involving multi joint functions has improved skeletal bone density, collagen synthesis, tendon growth / strength, promotes muscle control and proprioception. ot to mention heavy compounds also elevate metabolism for (I believe) up to 12 hours post workout.[/quote]
^Broscience. This is how it starts.

28

I’m not sure if you’re serious or trying to troll me… Are you really citing a 2010 article from elitefts from a guy who has one article to his name about training biceps heavily because wait for it… he injured it?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=weight+lifting+tendons+collagen&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&as_ylo=2014

29

^LOL!!!

Here we go…

30

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
Plot twist, I rarely even do 5x5. I’m more of a 6x3 person as far as strength gains go. If you were to take up bodybuilding. I’d recmomend 5x5 or 5/3/1 or any of the beginner programs based around the big three (Yes I’m aware many top levels use 5/3/1 still). Like I said, it’s to build a base. Nothing, to me, is worse than bro splitting because they want to become a bodybuilder. Do you see how many bodybuilders are getting injured constantly because they dose too high, use too little joint recovery “methods” and have poor form/ underdeveloped tendons that come from heavy lifting.[/quote]

I guess I could rephrase my question. Do you utilize any form of peaking/periodization to train for a meet, or do you stick with the same rep/set scheme up until the week of and then just deload?

31

Of course? Who doesn’t peak for a meet. How is this relevant to a beginner who has no experience.

32

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
Of course? Who doesn’t peak for a meet. How is this relevant to a beginner who has no experience.[/quote]

I sense an unwarranted hostility. I was curious about your own approach to training and wanted to discuss your methods with you as a fellow athlete. I get the feeling you’re not interested in that though, so I’ll wish you luck with your training.

33

Deepgoat, I understand we’re you’re coming from. I also don’t want you to get the feeling that the entire board has teamed up against you and the use of heavy compound movements. So I’ll try to explain where I disagree with you.

  1. I think full body training works just fine for beginners. Where we disagree is the effectiveness of 5x5’s (Stronglifts or Starting Strength) progression model, which is " do 5x5 every workout, no more, no less. If you can’t do that three times in a row, deload". I’ve found it much more productive to, after a learning phase, stick to a weight that is neither too light nor too heavy and then add reps. With Starting strength, you spend three sessions working on a weight that is finally enough to really challenge you - and then you deload. This has never, ever worked for me and I’ve wasted plenty of time trying to make it work.

  2. Isolation exercises. Now, I don’t think a raw beginner needs them immediately, but later on? Bicep curls, if done with reason, make my elbows feel better. Hamstring work makes my squat more stable. Again, I don’t really think you have to do any for the first six months or so but they do have a function.

PS I also don’t see any 5x5 program addressing tendon strength or joint recovery at all, which is what I was getting at earlier.

34

Whoops I got mixed up with who i was replying to. No hostility intended. I usually peak by adding sets and lowering reps. eventually I want to end up at 6x3 4x2 and then 2x1. I use 6x3 for my general blocks before I want to try and hit a max. Anything under that is just preparing for a double or single

35

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Deepgoat, I understand we’re you’re coming from. I also don’t want you to get the feeling that the entire board has teamed up against you and the use of heavy compound movements. So I’ll try to explain where I disagree with you.

  1. I think full body training works just fine for beginners. Where we disagree is the effectiveness of 5x5’s (Stronglifts or Starting Strength) progression model, which is " do 5x5 every workout, no more, no less. If you can’t do that three times in a row, deload". I’ve found it much more productive to, after a learning phase, stick to a weight that is neither too light nor too heavy and then add reps. With Starting strength, you spend three sessions working on a weight that is finally enough to really challenge you - and then you deload. This has never, ever worked for me and I’ve wasted plenty of time trying to make it work.

  2. Isolation exercises. Now, I don’t think a raw beginner needs them immediately, but later on? Bicep curls, if done with reason, make my elbows feel better. Hamstring work makes my squat more stable. Again, I don’t really think you have to do any for the first six months or so but they do have a function.

PS I also don’t see any 5x5 program addressing tendon strength or joint recovery at all, which is what I was getting at earlier.[/quote]
No one is teaming up against him. Just look at the link he posted and see how he managed to distort everything on the 1st page into that silly post he made prior.

36

I can see where people are coming from. Ever since coming off stronglifts (which I progressed fine on) I’ve been mainly doing the big 3 with high sets and then working my back heavily with some sort of row or pullup. I have no injuries that are a result of lifting, more of posture issues obtained in my youth. I’ve never trained isolation movements for any real time aside from trying it for a few weeks. I’m always a fan of lateral transitioning - If one lift isn’t eliciting the results i desire I switch it out for another lift. I.E Back squat to safety bar squat or pause squats, bench press to floor press or Incline.

The whole point about tendon strength, collagen, bone density isn’t referenced in the program for the fact that is is science. All of this has been proven timelessly in studies and tests. Any heavy squatter is going to have abnormally dense bones and developed tendons

Edit: DT all you do is talk shit, literally since the first time I ever came on this website I saw you talking shit. You’re not even a half decent lifter whilst you spend all your time in the cycle section.

37

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
The whole point about tendon strength, collagen, bone density isn’t referenced in the program for the fact that is is science. All of this has been proven timelessly in studies and tests. Any heavy squatter is going to have abnormally dense bones and developed tendons.[/quote]

Bone density and tendon strength actually come from very different stresses. Bone density is usually the result of heavy loading while tendons get stronger very, very slowly and respond well to higher reps with constant tension. Tendon tears are fairly common among strength athletes because it’s easy to outgrow their current strength levels.

38

No disrespect but I have to correct you. Increases in bone density come from micro-fractures in the bone caused by heavy loads, plyometric movements, basically anything that delivers force to the bone. Tendons are a little different, they wear like muscles, they do react to high volume training which does increase the size but what you want to look for in tendons is density AND size. This goes back to collagen synthesis rate being elevated by heavy lifting where as higher repetition lifting will not do. Ligaments, tendons and joints are all made of fibrous collagen.

39

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
No disrespect but I have to correct you. Increases in bone density come from micro-fractures in the bone caused by heavy loads, plyometric movements, basically anything that delivers force to the bone. Tendons are a little different, they wear like muscles, they do react to high volume training which does increase the size but what you want to look for in tendons is density AND size. This goes back to collagen synthesis rate being elevated by heavy lifting where as higher repetition lifting will not do. Ligaments, tendons and joints are all made of fibrous collagen.[/quote]

I feel you’re rephrasing what I said. I do not disagree with the above passage.

40

[quote]Deepgoat wrote:
I’m not sure if you’re serious or trying to troll me… Are you really citing a 2010 article from elitefts from a guy who has one article to his name about training biceps heavily because wait for it… he injured it?

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=weight+lifting+tendons+collagen&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&as_ylo=2014[/quote]

No, I wasn’t trying to troll you at all, and your concern with being RIGHT instead of responding to what was actually said is quite telling.

That was a terrific article. The author made an outstanding point that an undue focus on compounds, and ONLY compounds, with a complete aversion to isolation exercises, is just as likely to make one injury-prone as bodybuilding split, if not moreso. If all you got from the article was “training biceps heavily because he injured it” then I question your ability to understand the connection here. Please think a little bit, but don’t strain your brain too much.

He made the point that he had been effectively neglecting any isolation work in his training. He injured his biceps tendon fooling around with some curls after a period in which he had not been training them. His epiphany was that the complete LACK of isolation work in his training is what actually MADE him injury prone, and that the re-introduction of some isolation work would likely have some benefits moving forward for the expressed purpose of preventing future injuries.

I find it humorous that you just posted a link to a Google Scholar search of “weight lifting tendons collagen” - if you had actually read those studies, you would realize they further support the use of isolation exercises for the purposes you listed.

From the very first reference, “Functional adaptation of tendon and skeletal muscle to resistance training in three patients with genetically verified classic Ehlers Danlos Syndrome” - let’s read the training protocol:

"The training protocol consisted of two parts. The first part was targeting the lower body and the second targeting the upper body. The two parts were carried out in continuation with the lower body part always being the first. The specific exercises were: leg extension, leg curl, leg press, resisted calf raises, chest press, seated rows, abdominal crunch and lower back extension. Before each session, the participants started out with 5 minutes warm-up on a stationary bike. The intensity was self-chosen and without progression. The upper body protocol always consisted of 4 exercises, 3 sets per exercise and aimed at a mean of 10 repetitions per set. "

Hm. That looks like mostly isolation exercises. Not much like StrongLifts 5x5.

The second reference lists the leg press, leg extension, calf rotator, and gluteal conditioner machines.

The third article (“Effects of resistance training on tendon mechanical properties and rapid force production in prepubertal children”) lists a calf-raise performed on a leg press machine as the principal exercise of interest.

So, in conclusion, the search that you listed predominantly advertises the benefits of resistance training, including isolation exercises, for the purposes you described.

Good job, good effort.

EDIT: because I fear that you’re going to misunderstand my point and talk past it…I am not at all against programs based on heavy compound lifts. I did a whole bunch of snatch-grip deadlifts this morning. Tomorrow I’m going to do a bunch of kettlebell snatches. I’m not really an “isolation” guy myself.

However, the broader point (which you seem to be missing) is that isolation-based programs and splits are just fine. They don’t increase injury risk any more than heavy-compound programs - the references that you yourself linked to all argue for the benefits of resistance training on joint and tendon health, and all were done isolation exercises. Maybe next time try reading them first?