Beating Narrow Clavicles

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1

CT,

I’ve read that you actually have quite narrow clavicles and you used to be a narrow looking guy, but you’re physique is not the slightest bit ‘narrow’ nowadays, and it’s obvious that your massive shoulders are what have given you the width.

I too, have been cursed with narrow clavicles, and my question to you is: How can I build up my shoulders and just generally make myself look wider?

I currently train the whole body 3 times a week, and I do overhead presses or high-pulls almost every session to try stimulate the shoulders, but over the past year I really haven’t gotten any wider…

Thanks in advanced!

2

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
CT,

I’ve read that you actually have quite narrow clavicles and you used to be a narrow looking guy, but you’re physique is not the slightest bit ‘narrow’ nowadays, and it’s obvious that your massive shoulders are what have given you the width.

I too, have been cursed with narrow clavicles, and my question to you is: How can I build up my shoulders and just generally make myself look wider?

I currently train the whole body 3 times a week, and I do overhead presses or high-pulls almost every session to try stimulate the shoulders, but over the past year I really haven’t gotten any wider…

Thanks in advanced![/quote]

It does take some time.

I always focused a lot on overhead strength (I competed in olympic lifting for years) and at one point I could push press 315lbs for 5 reps. And even then I didn’t really look wide. i had rounded shoulders but in a shirt I looked narrowish.

I found that personally I needed isolated shoulder work to make the delts as big as I wanted. I wold do variations of the lateral raises like the average teenager do biceps curls: often and a lot of 'em!!! It wasn’t unusual for me to do up to 20 sets of lateral raises/front raises in a session and do that 2-3 times a week.

That was done when I stopped olympic lifting and briefly switched over to a combination of bodybuilding/powerlifitng training.

Some people think that I’m against isolation exercises… far from the truth. I’m pro “big compound movements” and they represent the vast majority of my volume. But some issues need isolation work to be fixed.

Even today I still need to focus on isolation work for my delts to keep them large. But today I don’t do 20 sets of various laterals. What I like to do is this:

  1. INCLINE DB LATERAL RAISE (seated on an incline bench set at about a 45 degrees angle… I sit normally, NOT chest on the bench)
    I start by doing 10-12 full reps, focusing on feeling the deltoids do the work
    Without any rest I stand up an do 4-6 more reps with a bit more “freedom in style” (allowing a bit of cheating)
    Without any rest I sit back down and perform 15 to 25 bottom partials reps (I start strict but as fatigue sets in, some momentum is allowed)

I do 3-4 sets

  1. INCLINE FRONT DB RAISES
    Same as above

I do 3-4 sets

I actually go conservative with the weight… most people use way too much weight with laterals and do not hit the delts at all. To give you an example I use about 20lbs for these exercises so you should start at 10-12lbs (which is where I have most guys start at).

  1. MACHINE PARTIAL LATERALS
    Using the seated lateral raise machine, I keep my arms straight as if doing a DB lateral (so I’m not holding the handle, just pushing against the cushions with my arms) and perform 30 bottom partial reps. I start strict but as fatigue sets in I allow a slight amount of momentum. At the end of the set I hold the contraction for 10-20 seconds.

I do 3 sets.

3

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
CT,

I’ve read that you actually have quite narrow clavicles and you used to be a narrow looking guy, but you’re physique is not the slightest bit ‘narrow’ nowadays, and it’s obvious that your massive shoulders are what have given you the width.

I too, have been cursed with narrow clavicles, and my question to you is: How can I build up my shoulders and just generally make myself look wider?

I currently train the whole body 3 times a week, and I do overhead presses or high-pulls almost every session to try stimulate the shoulders, but over the past year I really haven’t gotten any wider…

Thanks in advanced![/quote]

It does take some time.

I always focused a lot on overhead strength (I competed in olympic lifting for years) and at one point I could push press 315lbs for 5 reps. And even then I didn’t really look wide. i had rounded shoulders but in a shirt I looked narrowish.

I found that personally I needed isolated shoulder work to make the delts as big as I wanted. I wold do variations of the lateral raises like the average teenager do biceps curls: often and a lot of 'em!!! It wasn’t unusual for me to do up to 20 sets of lateral raises/front raises in a session and do that 2-3 times a week.

That was done when I stopped olympic lifting and briefly switched over to a combination of bodybuilding/powerlifitng training.

Some people think that I’m against isolation exercises… far from the truth. I’m pro “big compound movements” and they represent the vast majority of my volume. But some issues need isolation work to be fixed.

Even today I still need to focus on isolation work for my delts to keep them large. But today I don’t do 20 sets of various laterals. What I like to do is this:

  1. INCLINE DB LATERAL RAISE (seated on an incline bench set at about a 45 degrees angle… I sit normally, NOT chest on the bench)
    I start by doing 10-12 full reps, focusing on feeling the deltoids do the work
    Without any rest I stand up an do 4-6 more reps with a bit more “freedom in style” (allowing a bit of cheating)
    Without any rest I sit back down and perform 15 to 25 bottom partials reps (I start strict but as fatigue sets in, some momentum is allowed)

I do 3-4 sets

  1. INCLINE FRONT DB RAISES
    Same as above

I do 3-4 sets

I actually go conservative with the weight… most people use way too much weight with laterals and do not hit the delts at all. To give you an example I use about 20lbs for these exercises so you should start at 10-12lbs (which is where I have most guys start at).

  1. MACHINE PARTIAL LATERALS
    Using the seated lateral raise machine, I keep my arms straight as if doing a DB lateral (so I’m not holding the handle, just pushing against the cushions with my arms) and perform 30 bottom partial reps. I start strict but as fatigue sets in I allow a slight amount of momentum. At the end of the set I hold the contraction for 10-20 seconds.

I do 3 sets.[/quote]

Ahh thank you very much CT. When should I do this shoulder work? Should I ditch the overhead pressing and replace it with this, or add this on top of my current work? If so when? I usually start my workouts off with overhead pressing, then go into other pressing and pulling and then I do legs last.

4

CT - I just want to say OWW, that sounds like it’s going to burn a bit. Never tried the incline lateral

5

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
CT,

I’ve read that you actually have quite narrow clavicles and you used to be a narrow looking guy, but you’re physique is not the slightest bit ‘narrow’ nowadays, and it’s obvious that your massive shoulders are what have given you the width.

I too, have been cursed with narrow clavicles, and my question to you is: How can I build up my shoulders and just generally make myself look wider?

I currently train the whole body 3 times a week, and I do overhead presses or high-pulls almost every session to try stimulate the shoulders, but over the past year I really haven’t gotten any wider…

Thanks in advanced![/quote]

It does take some time.

I always focused a lot on overhead strength (I competed in olympic lifting for years) and at one point I could push press 315lbs for 5 reps. And even then I didn’t really look wide. i had rounded shoulders but in a shirt I looked narrowish.

I found that personally I needed isolated shoulder work to make the delts as big as I wanted. I wold do variations of the lateral raises like the average teenager do biceps curls: often and a lot of 'em!!! It wasn’t unusual for me to do up to 20 sets of lateral raises/front raises in a session and do that 2-3 times a week.

That was done when I stopped olympic lifting and briefly switched over to a combination of bodybuilding/powerlifitng training.

Some people think that I’m against isolation exercises… far from the truth. I’m pro “big compound movements” and they represent the vast majority of my volume. But some issues need isolation work to be fixed.

Even today I still need to focus on isolation work for my delts to keep them large. But today I don’t do 20 sets of various laterals. What I like to do is this:

  1. INCLINE DB LATERAL RAISE (seated on an incline bench set at about a 45 degrees angle… I sit normally, NOT chest on the bench)
    I start by doing 10-12 full reps, focusing on feeling the deltoids do the work
    Without any rest I stand up an do 4-6 more reps with a bit more “freedom in style” (allowing a bit of cheating)
    Without any rest I sit back down and perform 15 to 25 bottom partials reps (I start strict but as fatigue sets in, some momentum is allowed)

I do 3-4 sets

  1. INCLINE FRONT DB RAISES
    Same as above

I do 3-4 sets

I actually go conservative with the weight… most people use way too much weight with laterals and do not hit the delts at all. To give you an example I use about 20lbs for these exercises so you should start at 10-12lbs (which is where I have most guys start at).

  1. MACHINE PARTIAL LATERALS
    Using the seated lateral raise machine, I keep my arms straight as if doing a DB lateral (so I’m not holding the handle, just pushing against the cushions with my arms) and perform 30 bottom partial reps. I start strict but as fatigue sets in I allow a slight amount of momentum. At the end of the set I hold the contraction for 10-20 seconds.

I do 3 sets.[/quote]

Ahh thank you very much CT. When should I do this shoulder work? Should I ditch the overhead pressing and replace it with this, or add this on top of my current work? If so when? I usually start my workouts off with overhead pressing, then go into other pressing and pulling and then I do legs last.[/quote]

DO NOT drop the overhead press… never replace a bread and butter lift for isolation work… the isolation work is there as a specific solution to solve a precise issue… remedial exercises not to be a main exercise. Do it twice a week at the end of your workouts.

6

[quote]corstijeir wrote:
CT - I just want to say OWW, that sounds like it’s going to burn a bit. Never tried the incline lateral[/quote]

You can get a better deltoid stretch which increases recruitment

7

Okay thanks again CT!

8

I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.

9

[quote]as wrote:
I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.[/quote]

lots of push pressing with nothing else added gave some decent growth -i don’t have narrow clavicles though i guess thats irrelevant to the deltoid growth.

10

[quote]lboro21 wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.[/quote]

lots of push pressing with nothing else added gave some decent growth -i don’t have narrow clavicles though i guess thats irrelevant to the deltoid growth.[/quote]

Would you say the push pressing gave you any increased width though? I know the push press seems to thicken up the shoulders, but did it do a lot for your width? CT said that push pressing didn’t make him much wider, but maybe some people respond differently…

11

I’m still healing up from shoulder issues so I haven’t pressed for awhile. One thing I am making progress with are wide grip partial upright rows with a pause at the top. The pauses were CT’s recommendation to increase the TUT. If you get the upper arm path right, these work the lateral delts really hard.

At the top, your upper arms should be parallel to the ground, your lower arms should be perpendicular to the ground.

These don’t bother my shoulders at all, and even though there’s a lot of upper trap involvement, the lateral delts are fully contracted at the top. This keeps the joint well out of the impingement range and still lets you load up pretty heavy. I’m using sets in the 6-8 rep range and just working them in between bench press sets. Usually somewhere between 6 and 10 sets total.

Something worth considering, especially if lateral raises seem to cause more trap growth than delt growth as they do for me.

12

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]lboro21 wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.[/quote]

lots of push pressing with nothing else added gave some decent growth -i don’t have narrow clavicles though i guess thats irrelevant to the deltoid growth.[/quote]

Would you say the push pressing gave you any increased width though? I know the push press seems to thicken up the shoulders, but did it do a lot for your width? CT said that push pressing didn’t make him much wider, but maybe some people respond differently… [/quote]

Push press gave me some mass but hitting side and rear delts with isolation exercises did a better job. Hitting my lats and trying to target up high right where they connect to my shoulder right under my arm pits did the most, as opposed to hitting lower part of lats.

But when it comes to pressing for mass size in my delts the incline presses easily beat any type of overhead press. When I would get strong on inclines my whole appearance would change. That along with lat width and the side rear delt isolation stuff would dramatically change my appearance.

13

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]lboro21 wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.[/quote]

lots of push pressing with nothing else added gave some decent growth -i don’t have narrow clavicles though i guess thats irrelevant to the deltoid growth.[/quote]

Would you say the push pressing gave you any increased width though? I know the push press seems to thicken up the shoulders, but did it do a lot for your width? CT said that push pressing didn’t make him much wider, but maybe some people respond differently… [/quote]

Push press gave me some mass but hitting side and rear delts with isolation exercises did a better job. Hitting my lats and trying to target up high right where they connect to my shoulder right under my arm pits did the most, as opposed to hitting lower part of lats.

But when it comes to pressing for mass size in my delts the incline presses easily beat any type of overhead press. When I would get strong on inclines my whole appearance would change. That along with lat width and the side rear delt isolation stuff would dramatically change my appearance.
[/quote]

Interesting, John Meadows also favors incline pressing for shoulder development. When you say it changed your whole appearance, are you talking about a thicker upper chest and wider shoulders? Because they’re 2 big problem areas for me… I might have to start hammering the incline presses!
Also what degree incline are you talking about?

14

CT’s method sounds interesting, as always :slight_smile:
Could someone let me know how do you perform INCLINE FRONT DB RAISES?
Do you lie on the incline bench on your stomach or on your back?
Thanks for clarification!

15

If you read CT’s post about doing the incline front DB raises he does them seated normally on an incline bench, NOT on his stomach/chest.

16

Controversial to some, but I would eliminate all direct trap work until your delts are up to par

17
  1. Incline Press: Upper pecs, front delts
  2. Side laterals & Rear laterals: Rest of delts
  3. Pull ups: Lats
  4. Rows with elbows flaring: Upper Back
  5. Cut fat: duh

Result: Smaller waist, bigger upper pecs & upper back, bigger shoulders, latwings: V-taper: human dorito

18

[quote]Mina293 wrote:

  1. Incline Press: Upper pecs, front delts
  2. Side laterals & Rear laterals: Rest of delts
  3. Pull ups: Lats
  4. Rows with elbows flaring: Upper Back
  5. Cut fat: duh

Result: Smaller waist, bigger upper pecs & upper back, bigger shoulders, latwings: V-taper: human dorito[/quote]

If it were only as simple as doing these exercises, everybody in the gym would have a good v-taper since these are exercises done by almost everybody.

It’s kinda like if someone asked “I have very small arms, how can I best that?” and you’d answer: “1. Wide-grip curl: inner portion of biceps 2. Incline DB curls: outer portion of biceps 3. hammer curls: brachialis 4. close-grip bench press: triceps. Result: monster guns”

Sounds good, but the reality is that everybody uses those exercises yet not everybody has big arms. When someone has a specific issue and that he already has a good amount of training experience, chances are that he did try these exercises and it didn’t solve the issue.

I am definetely a “big basic lifts” kinda guy, but the reality is that sometimes you need to use a more specific approach with some different type of stimulation to solve the issue.

In that situation it’s not merely the exercise selection that is important but also the method used and the loading schemes.

19

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Controversial to some, but I would eliminate all direct trap work until your delts are up to par[/quote]

Actually that is not an uncommon recommendation. For example, Christopher Reeves made sure to avoid doing traps work when training to be Superman while he emphasized delts to gives the illusion of even more width.

There is truth about super large traps with narrow shoulder making you look narrower. So not training traps while you are building the delts would make sense.

However I’ll play devil’s advocate by saying that retarding the growth of some muscle while another one is catching up might not be the best long term solution. When your delts have caught up, you then will have to spend more time getting the traps to “catch up”. So one could keep on building traps and accepting less of width illusion for a while, but saving time to get the total package once the delts are good.

That’s what I did. I/m not saying that it’s the only way. But unless he is planning to step on stage soon, not having the width illusion from smaller traps is not really an issue.

20

[quote]jtbrown0511 wrote:
If you read CT’s post about doing the incline front DB raises he does them seated normally on an incline bench, NOT on his stomach/chest.[/quote]

Correct, seated back on the bench and having the arms perpendicular to the floor in the starting position, lifting them slightly forward even for the laterals.