Beating Narrow Clavicles

[as1]

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]lboro21 wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.[/quote]

lots of push pressing with nothing else added gave some decent growth -i don’t have narrow clavicles though i guess thats irrelevant to the deltoid growth.[/quote]

Would you say the push pressing gave you any increased width though? I know the push press seems to thicken up the shoulders, but did it do a lot for your width? CT said that push pressing didn’t make him much wider, but maybe some people respond differently… [/quote]

Push press gave me some mass but hitting side and rear delts with isolation exercises did a better job. Hitting my lats and trying to target up high right where they connect to my shoulder right under my arm pits did the most, as opposed to hitting lower part of lats.

But when it comes to pressing for mass size in my delts the incline presses easily beat any type of overhead press. When I would get strong on inclines my whole appearance would change. That along with lat width and the side rear delt isolation stuff would dramatically change my appearance.
[/quote]

Interesting, John Meadows also favors incline pressing for shoulder development. When you say it changed your whole appearance, are you talking about a thicker upper chest and wider shoulders? Because they’re 2 big problem areas for me… I might have to start hammering the incline presses!
Also what degree incline are you talking about?[/quote]

Yes exactly,thicker upper chest and shoulders. It gave me much more of that “shoulder pad” look that CT talks about. I think inclines build my shoulders more than overheads because the stimulation on the shoulder is the same as on overheads but you use much more weight which actually gives you more size and stimulation in the delts. But like I said my problem was I over used the inclines and tore up my shoulders. Or maybe I have tightness or muscle imbalances I never addressed which led to the injuries.

[ChristNhero]

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:

[quote]lboro21 wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I also have the same problem, plus compounded by the fact that I have shallow upper pecs and heavy lower ones. I also found that doing lots of lateral variations helped especially since I’m a horrible overhead presser and can’t pack on mass since I’m not strong at them. But what really helped me a lot was blasting my rear delts and my lats. Even doing pre exhaust rear delt/back combos constantly. Whenever I start hitting back and rear delts hard it always creates an illusion of more width. heavy inclines were also a big help but I tore up my rotators from doing them so much.[/quote]

lots of push pressing with nothing else added gave some decent growth -i don’t have narrow clavicles though i guess thats irrelevant to the deltoid growth.[/quote]

Would you say the push pressing gave you any increased width though? I know the push press seems to thicken up the shoulders, but did it do a lot for your width? CT said that push pressing didn’t make him much wider, but maybe some people respond differently… [/quote]

Push press gave me some mass but hitting side and rear delts with isolation exercises did a better job. Hitting my lats and trying to target up high right where they connect to my shoulder right under my arm pits did the most, as opposed to hitting lower part of lats.

But when it comes to pressing for mass size in my delts the incline presses easily beat any type of overhead press. When I would get strong on inclines my whole appearance would change. That along with lat width and the side rear delt isolation stuff would dramatically change my appearance.
[/quote]

Interesting, John Meadows also favors incline pressing for shoulder development. When you say it changed your whole appearance, are you talking about a thicker upper chest and wider shoulders? Because they’re 2 big problem areas for me… I might have to start hammering the incline presses!
Also what degree incline are you talking about?[/quote]

Yes exactly,thicker upper chest and shoulders. It gave me much more of that “shoulder pad” look that CT talks about. I think inclines build my shoulders more than overheads because the stimulation on the shoulder is the same as on overheads but you use much more weight which actually gives you more size and stimulation in the delts. But like I said my problem was I over used the inclines and tore up my shoulders. Or maybe I have tightness or muscle imbalances I never addressed which led to the injuries.[/quote]

Makes sense I suppose! My shoulders feel fine at the moment so I’m guessing I should be fine with it so long as I don’t over-do it…
What degree did you set the incline bench at? Sorry to be a pest but you didn’t answer in your reply

[as1]

I stuck with the standard 45 degree most of the time, but would change it up every so often going steeper or lower.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]as wrote:
I stuck with the standard 45 degree most of the time, but would change it up every so often going steeper or lower.[/quote]

What most people think is 45 degrees is in fact 30 degrees. A “normal” incline bench press (fixed angle) is 30 degrees and the first setting on an adjustable bench really is 30 degrees not 45

[jtbrown0511]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I stuck with the standard 45 degree most of the time, but would change it up every so often going steeper or lower.[/quote]

What most people think is 45 degrees is in fact 30 degrees. A “normal” incline bench press (fixed angle) is 30 degrees and the first setting on an adjustable bench really is 30 degrees not 45[/quote]

While waiting for a barbell to open up one day I tried starting my session with the incline lateral raises. I raised the bench on the first notched, looked at it, and thought it looked like it was about 45 degree. I grabbed the dumbbells sat down and figured out very quickly that I wasn’t at 45 degrees. It felt like I was sitting way too far back. So I think the second setting on the bench was about 45 degrees.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]jtbrown0511 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I stuck with the standard 45 degree most of the time, but would change it up every so often going steeper or lower.[/quote]

What most people think is 45 degrees is in fact 30 degrees. A “normal” incline bench press (fixed angle) is 30 degrees and the first setting on an adjustable bench really is 30 degrees not 45[/quote]

While waiting for a barbell to open up one day I tried starting my session with the incline lateral raises. I raised the bench on the first notched, looked at it, and thought it looked like it was about 45 degree. I grabbed the dumbbells sat down and figured out very quickly that I wasn’t at 45 degrees. It felt like I was sitting way too far back. So I think the second setting on the bench was about 45 degrees.[/quote]

Yes, normally, 30 deg, 45 deg, 60 deg, 75 deg, 90 deg

[as1]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]as wrote:
I stuck with the standard 45 degree most of the time, but would change it up every so often going steeper or lower.[/quote]

What most people think is 45 degrees is in fact 30 degrees. A “normal” incline bench press (fixed angle) is 30 degrees and the first setting on an adjustable bench really is 30 degrees not 45[/quote]

Yes absolutely true. The fixed incline bench I wold use is an old school steep one definitely 45. The newer fixed ones are more shallow, roughly 30 degrees. The new adjustables look like they adjust to 30, 45, 60, 75 and 90. Or so they appear. I always vary.

[Colbstar]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
CT,

I’ve read that you actually have quite narrow clavicles and you used to be a narrow looking guy, but you’re physique is not the slightest bit ‘narrow’ nowadays, and it’s obvious that your massive shoulders are what have given you the width.

I too, have been cursed with narrow clavicles, and my question to you is: How can I build up my shoulders and just generally make myself look wider?

I currently train the whole body 3 times a week, and I do overhead presses or high-pulls almost every session to try stimulate the shoulders, but over the past year I really haven’t gotten any wider…

Thanks in advanced![/quote]

It does take some time.

I always focused a lot on overhead strength (I competed in olympic lifting for years) and at one point I could push press 315lbs for 5 reps. And even then I didn’t really look wide. i had rounded shoulders but in a shirt I looked narrowish.

I found that personally I needed isolated shoulder work to make the delts as big as I wanted. I wold do variations of the lateral raises like the average teenager do biceps curls: often and a lot of 'em!!! It wasn’t unusual for me to do up to 20 sets of lateral raises/front raises in a session and do that 2-3 times a week.

That was done when I stopped olympic lifting and briefly switched over to a combination of bodybuilding/powerlifitng training.

Some people think that I’m against isolation exercises… far from the truth. I’m pro “big compound movements” and they represent the vast majority of my volume. But some issues need isolation work to be fixed.

Even today I still need to focus on isolation work for my delts to keep them large. But today I don’t do 20 sets of various laterals. What I like to do is this:

1. INCLINE DB LATERAL RAISE (seated on an incline bench set at about a 45 degrees angle… I sit normally, NOT chest on the bench)
   I start by doing 10-12 full reps, focusing on feeling the deltoids do the work
   Without any rest I stand up an do 4-6 more reps with a bit more “freedom in style” (allowing a bit of cheating)
   Without any rest I sit back down and perform 15 to 25 bottom partials reps (I start strict but as fatigue sets in, some momentum is allowed)

I do 3-4 sets

2. INCLINE FRONT DB RAISES
   Same as above

I do 3-4 sets

I actually go conservative with the weight… most people use way too much weight with laterals and do not hit the delts at all. To give you an example I use about 20lbs for these exercises so you should start at 10-12lbs (which is where I have most guys start at).

I do 3 sets.[/quote]
Would something like this be good for rear delts as well?

I’m doing the HPMASS program and I was thinking of doing rear delt raises like this at the end of my upper body pressing workout as part of the assistance work circuit.

[Christian_Thibaudeau]

[quote]Colbstar wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]ChristNhero wrote:
CT,

I’ve read that you actually have quite narrow clavicles and you used to be a narrow looking guy, but you’re physique is not the slightest bit ‘narrow’ nowadays, and it’s obvious that your massive shoulders are what have given you the width.

I too, have been cursed with narrow clavicles, and my question to you is: How can I build up my shoulders and just generally make myself look wider?

I currently train the whole body 3 times a week, and I do overhead presses or high-pulls almost every session to try stimulate the shoulders, but over the past year I really haven’t gotten any wider…

Thanks in advanced![/quote]

It does take some time.

I always focused a lot on overhead strength (I competed in olympic lifting for years) and at one point I could push press 315lbs for 5 reps. And even then I didn’t really look wide. i had rounded shoulders but in a shirt I looked narrowish.

I found that personally I needed isolated shoulder work to make the delts as big as I wanted. I wold do variations of the lateral raises like the average teenager do biceps curls: often and a lot of 'em!!! It wasn’t unusual for me to do up to 20 sets of lateral raises/front raises in a session and do that 2-3 times a week.

That was done when I stopped olympic lifting and briefly switched over to a combination of bodybuilding/powerlifitng training.

Some people think that I’m against isolation exercises… far from the truth. I’m pro “big compound movements” and they represent the vast majority of my volume. But some issues need isolation work to be fixed.

Even today I still need to focus on isolation work for my delts to keep them large. But today I don’t do 20 sets of various laterals. What I like to do is this:

1. INCLINE DB LATERAL RAISE (seated on an incline bench set at about a 45 degrees angle… I sit normally, NOT chest on the bench)
   I start by doing 10-12 full reps, focusing on feeling the deltoids do the work
   Without any rest I stand up an do 4-6 more reps with a bit more “freedom in style” (allowing a bit of cheating)
   Without any rest I sit back down and perform 15 to 25 bottom partials reps (I start strict but as fatigue sets in, some momentum is allowed)

I do 3-4 sets

2. INCLINE FRONT DB RAISES
   Same as above

I do 3-4 sets

I actually go conservative with the weight… most people use way too much weight with laterals and do not hit the delts at all. To give you an example I use about 20lbs for these exercises so you should start at 10-12lbs (which is where I have most guys start at).

I do 3 sets.[/quote]
Would something like this be good for rear delts as well?

I’m doing the HPMASS program and I was thinking of doing rear delt raises like this at the end of my upper body pressing workout as part of the assistance work circuit.[/quote]

Sure, Actually I adapted the method from Meadows rear delts destroyer sets

[Colbstar]

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Sure, Actually I adapted the method from Meadows rear delts destroyer sets
[/quote]
Noted! I’ll definitely check out JM’s rear delt destroyers here on T-Nation. He seems like a really cool guy.

Thanks for the info.

Colby

P.S. Great article: ( Direct Arm Training: Pros and Cons )