What about those limits, eh?
I think if you want to find strong women that may serve as a model to what a committed strength trainee can strive towards, look up Caitlyn Trout and Jennifer Thompson. These are a couple incredibly strong ladies who compete in raw powerlifting. I’m not sure if they’ve ever run any cycles or not, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Caitlyn were lifetime natty and maybe Jennifer too, I dunno. Regardless, even if they have done something it’s not NEARLY as severe as the examples you’ve listed thus far.
Both of these ladies are female world record holders in raw powerlifting.
[quote]csulli wrote:
Well that’s debatable… A 2000 multiply total is awesome for sure, but amongst assisted powerlifters it’s not at all a rarity.[/quote]
You’re at crossed purposes to me. I’m not saying she’s stronger than all men. I’m saying she’s stronger than MOST men. Or more specifically, that she (and the other ladies who’s awesome bench press videos I’ve posted up) are proof of my claim that the assertion that “men are stronger than women” is false, misleading and likely to lead to women underachieving.
Not every woman will be capable of what Becca does - that’s for sure. Most men won’t be capable of it either - even on drugs. But until each of us as individuals gets rid of the baggage and mental blocks that are limiting us we’ll never truly discover what we’re really capable of. We’ll give up without really trying because we’ve been conditioned to focus on what people tells us we CAN’T do.
Same goes for recovery/training every day. Don’t worry about what most people say isn’t possible. Focus on what IS possible for you - experiment, apply reason - find what it is that gives you the edge and brings out the very best in you. Who knows where it’ll lead 
Im all for giving it your all and not setting limits on yourself, yadda yadda yadda…but can we show a modicum of practicallity here?
[quote]susani wrote:
I’m not saying she’s stronger than all men. I’m saying she’s stronger than MOST men.
[/quote]
Well I concede that this is objectively true haha. She is certainly stronger than the vast majority of humans. The thing is though, the vast majority of humans, male or female, are exceptionally weak.
[quote]susani wrote:
Or more specifically, that she (and the other ladies who’s awesome bench press videos I’ve posted up) are proof of my claim that the assertion that “men are stronger than women” is false, misleading and likely to lead to women underachieving.
[/quote]
It’s not false though, it’s just science. Take Becca, huge amounts of gear, multi-ply equipment, 2000 total in the SHW class which is a world record amongst females. If we do an apples to apples comparison, steroids, multi-ply, super heavyweight, then the male equivalent is literally a thousand pounds more… You have to go down to the 148’s for males before the multi-ply total record goes below 2k.
[quote]susani wrote:
Not every woman will be capable of what Becca does - that’s for sure. Most men won’t be capable of it either - even on drugs.
[/quote]
Well… I’m not so sure. Given sufficient time, steroids, and decent training I think most males are quite capable of a 2000 multi-ply total. As long as they’re not just fantastically short or something lol.
I get what you’re saying, and you’re EXACTLY right about the training mentality amongst a lot of women. They limit themselves to their detriment. However… I don’t see why you think it necessary to try and go against basic biology and be “as strong as men”. I mean I feel like there is plenty of room for inspiration and motivation without that.
Do you know how many women I’ve ever seen in person squat 365lbs raw? None. There are women out there who can do that though. Is that not lofty enough to aspire towards? Do you really need Becca’s 800+lb multi-ply super steroid squat?
Work toward a 405 raw deadlift. That is insanely rare amongst any woman, but there are certainly women who have achieved it. I just don’t think it makes sense to try and match the men with a 600lb pull or something when there’s a 99.99% chance the girl isn’t even pulling 225 yet anyway…
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]susani wrote:
I’m not saying she’s stronger than all men. I’m saying she’s stronger than MOST men.
[/quote]
Well I concede that this is objectively true haha. She is certainly stronger than the vast majority of humans. The thing is though, the vast majority of humans, male or female, are exceptionally weak.
[quote]susani wrote:
Or more specifically, that she (and the other ladies who’s awesome bench press videos I’ve posted up) are proof of my claim that the assertion that “men are stronger than women” is false, misleading and likely to lead to women underachieving.
[/quote]
It’s not false though, it’s just science. Take Becca, huge amounts of gear, multi-ply equipment, 2000 total in the SHW class which is a world record amongst females. If we do an apples to apples comparison, steroids, multi-ply, super heavyweight, then the male equivalent is literally a thousand pounds more… You have to go down to the 148’s for males before the multi-ply total record goes below 2k.
[quote]susani wrote:
Not every woman will be capable of what Becca does - that’s for sure. Most men won’t be capable of it either - even on drugs.
[/quote]
Well… I’m not so sure. Given sufficient time, steroids, and decent training I think most males are quite capable of a 2000 multi-ply total. As long as they’re not just fantastically short or something lol.
I get what you’re saying, and you’re EXACTLY right about the training mentality amongst a lot of women. They limit themselves to their detriment. However… I don’t see why you think it necessary to try and go against basic biology and be “as strong as men”. I mean I feel like there is plenty of room for inspiration and motivation without that.
Do you know how many women I’ve ever seen in person squat 365lbs raw? None. There are women out there who can do that though. Is that not lofty enough to aspire towards? Do you really need Becca’s 800+lb multi-ply super steroid squat?
Work toward a 405 raw deadlift. That is insanely rare amongst any woman, but there are certainly women who have achieved it. I just don’t think it makes sense to try and match the men with a 600lb pull or something when there’s a 99.99% chance the girl isn’t even pulling 225 yet anyway…[/quote]
LOL - you’re still on a completely different tangent to me in your line of thinking. Not sure how to explain this more clearly…
OK, try it this way.
Most women aren’t training along side men with a 600lb pull. Most women are training amongst those men and women that, according to you, are pitifully weak. Because they’re led to believe that men are stronger than them they set their sights BELOW what the men around them are achieving. And as you know, we tend to get what we aim for.
A lot of women will be capable of getting much stronger than the men they’re training around/with. But they don’t try because of this missleading belief that men are stronger than women.
It’s like we discussed earlier re me and pullups. I’m now better at pullups than most men I come into contact with. Had I accepted this notion that men are stronger than women I’d never have managed to do a pullup simply because most men can’t do them. If men (who are stronger than women) can’t do them then how can I - a mere woman hope to manage it?
I simply wouldn’t have persisted with it and had I not persisted I wouldn’t have finally got to grips with it. Also, although it’s not the case with me, some women feel unfeminine if they’re stronger than a man. In their minds it suggests that they’re masculine.
I’m not suggesting that women try to compete with Becca - that’s a tall order! I’m suggesting that they try and compete with the men they see in the gym every day. The ones that are hugely weaker than Becca. Taking on Becca comes later when you’ve build up a bit of strength and confidence. 
We’re conditioned to think in terms of gender - as if that is the most significant grouping when it comes to sport. But it’s not. Things like bodyweight, size, fat levels, experience, skill etc are more relevant groupings than gender.
I don’t know if you remember a few years back T-Nation published an article claiming blacks dominated certain sports. That they had an advantage over whites. That caused outrage - there were cries of racism. I personally thought it was perfectly valid - some groups do TEND to have an advantage over others.
But they still compete against each other and keep striving to make it to the top. The reality is that there are plenty of whites that are faster runners than most blacks. Really the situation with gender grouping is no different. It’s just that sexism is socially acceptable. Racism isn’t.
[quote]susani wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]susani wrote:
I’m not saying she’s stronger than all men. I’m saying she’s stronger than MOST men.
[/quote]
Well I concede that this is objectively true haha. She is certainly stronger than the vast majority of humans. The thing is though, the vast majority of humans, male or female, are exceptionally weak.
[quote]susani wrote:
Or more specifically, that she (and the other ladies who’s awesome bench press videos I’ve posted up) are proof of my claim that the assertion that “men are stronger than women” is false, misleading and likely to lead to women underachieving.
[/quote]
It’s not false though, it’s just science. Take Becca, huge amounts of gear, multi-ply equipment, 2000 total in the SHW class which is a world record amongst females. If we do an apples to apples comparison, steroids, multi-ply, super heavyweight, then the male equivalent is literally a thousand pounds more… You have to go down to the 148’s for males before the multi-ply total record goes below 2k.
[quote]susani wrote:
Not every woman will be capable of what Becca does - that’s for sure. Most men won’t be capable of it either - even on drugs.
[/quote]
Well… I’m not so sure. Given sufficient time, steroids, and decent training I think most males are quite capable of a 2000 multi-ply total. As long as they’re not just fantastically short or something lol.
I get what you’re saying, and you’re EXACTLY right about the training mentality amongst a lot of women. They limit themselves to their detriment. However… I don’t see why you think it necessary to try and go against basic biology and be “as strong as men”. I mean I feel like there is plenty of room for inspiration and motivation without that.
Do you know how many women I’ve ever seen in person squat 365lbs raw? None. There are women out there who can do that though. Is that not lofty enough to aspire towards? Do you really need Becca’s 800+lb multi-ply super steroid squat?
Work toward a 405 raw deadlift. That is insanely rare amongst any woman, but there are certainly women who have achieved it. I just don’t think it makes sense to try and match the men with a 600lb pull or something when there’s a 99.99% chance the girl isn’t even pulling 225 yet anyway…[/quote]
LOL - you’re still on a completely different tangent to me in your line of thinking. Not sure how to explain this more clearly…
OK, try it this way.
Most women aren’t training along side men with a 600lb pull. Most women are training amongst those men and women that, according to you, are pitifully weak. Because they’re led to believe that men are stronger than them they set their sights BELOW what the men around them are achieving. And as you know, we tend to get what we aim for.
A lot of women will be capable of getting much stronger than the men they’re training around/with. But they don’t try because of this missleading belief that men are stronger than women.
It’s like we discussed earlier re me and pullups. I’m now better at pullups than most men I come into contact with. Had I accepted this notion that men are stronger than women I’d never have managed to do a pullup simply because most men can’t do them. If men (who are stronger than women) can’t do them then how can I - a mere woman hope to manage it?
I simply wouldn’t have persisted with it and had I not persisted I wouldn’t have finally got to grips with it. Also, although it’s not the case with me, some women feel unfeminine if they’re stronger than a man. In their minds it suggests that they’re masculine.
I’m not suggesting that women try to compete with Becca - that’s a tall order! I’m suggesting that they try and compete with the men they see in the gym every day. The ones that are hugely weaker than Becca. Taking on Becca comes later when you’ve build up a bit of strength and confidence.
We’re conditioned to think in terms of gender - as if that is the most significant grouping when it comes to sport. But it’s not. Things like bodyweight, size, fat levels, experience, skill etc are more relevant groupings than gender.
I don’t know if you remember a few years back T-Nation published an article claiming blacks dominated certain sports. That they had an advantage over whites. That caused outrage - there were cries of racism. I personally thought it was perfectly valid - some groups do TEND to have an advantage over others.
But they still compete against each other and keep striving to make it to the top. The reality is that there are plenty of whites that are faster runners than most blacks. Really the situation with gender grouping is no different. It’s just that sexism is socially acceptable. Racism isn’t.
[/quote]
Gender DOES matter, just like in sprinting, race DOES matter. Of the 71 people who have broken the 10 second mark in the 100m, all are men, and 1 was Caucasian. That is not for lack of trying either.
I don’t dispute that at a high level certain groups of the population tend to dominate Ecchastang.
But few people would consider it a good move to introduce special categories in sprinting for white men to give them a chance at winning something! Racial segregation would be considered by most to be a backward step.
Just because the people at the very top in the world of sprinting are black it doesn’t follow that blacks are better than whites at sprinting. Some white men will be faster than most black men.
It’s certainly true to say that the fastest black sprinters are faster than the fastest white sprinters. It’s certainly true to say that the strongest men are stronger than the strongest women.
But to claim that blacks are faster than whites and men stronger than women is just incorrect. There is a huge amount of overlap.
The reality is that only a tiny proportion of the population need to worry about what’s happening at elite level. For most of us it’s down to what’s happening at local level - and at that level very often white sprinters will be trouncing blacks and strong women outlifting men.
[quote]susani wrote:
The reality is that only a tiny proportion of the population need to worry about what’s happening at elite level. For most of us it’s down to what’s happening at local level - and at that level very often white sprinters will be trouncing blacks and strong women outlifting men. [/quote]
No, this isn’t true.
The difference between male and female lifters is orders of magnitude larger than racial differences between male sprinters.
There is no “local level” where strong women are regularly out-lifting trained men.
And to acknowledge this takes nothing away from the women.
[quote]susani wrote:
lots of stuff
[/quote]
I think I understand what you’re trying to get at a little better now.
Susani - I just read your other thread in this forum.
"Nutrition is maybe important if you’re a BBer. " ???
And you eat a “junk food diet” with absolutely no ill effects for your health, progress, recovery, and body comp goals. And are surrounded by lots of other very fit people who do the same? No need to worry about rest and recovery at all.
And the more you say about training, you’re ideas are certainly er… unconventional. Over 650 pullups in “a session”, which turns out to mean 5 hours of some minimal sets with some partial reps? I was willing to go with that one, but sheesh. This is getting ridiculous with the girl power comparisons.
I really like to see other women here, but you seem like you are just trolling us.
[quote]susani wrote:
men stronger than women is just incorrect. There is a huge amount of overlap.
[/quote]
There’s not though 
There is almost zero overlap in fact. Sexual dimorphism is a construct borne of millions of years of evolution, and no amount of positive thinking can overpower a force of that magnitude. In humans and primates especially it is very pronounced.
You’re right that with a little elbow grease a female can get stronger than some untrained males. But in order for them to keep up with a trained male they need to add steroids (and even then they’re usually still way behind) and if the male adds steroids, well they’re pretty much out of luck entirely.
[quote]susani wrote:
Because they’re led to believe that men are stronger…
A lot of women will be capable of getting much stronger than the men they’re training around/with. But they don’t try because of this missleading belief that men are stronger than women.
[/quote]
Who is leading women to believe this…it isn’t the 70’s any longer. Maybe you have a point in the era when you and I were children; however those days are long past. Today women are encouraged at every point in thier development to believe they can achive whatever they desire. Companies spend small fortunes advertising that message to women. Men that propose otherwise are shamed as ogers and cavemen. The females in my life certainly don’t hear a ‘don’t try you hardest so the boys will like you’ message. Where is that little voice in your ear comming from?
…this men vs women thing is so yesterday…
This conversation is ludicrous.
What point are you trying to support by cherry picking a woman who runs so much AAS she is practically a man with a vagina? What does this prove about anything?
Also the statement, “[b]y hitting all energy systems, movements, fitness elements you’re turning your body into a more efficient ‘machine’,” is patently false, if by “more efficient ‘machine’,” you mean better at utilizing those energy systems, movements, and fitness elements than specialized athletes. This is the biggest and most pernicious propaganda that Crossfit pushes.
People who actively try to be good at all athletic endeavors at the same time will never (NEVER) be as good, on the whole, at specialties than those who actually specialize. You can cherry pick all day, but if I take 100 random trainees and give them 5 years of training under an Olympic caliber oly coach and another random 100 and put them in a top crossfit class for 5 years, there is no question the former will whoop ass on the latter in Oly lifting.
Also, if we’re going to cherry pick or get anecdotal, all the crossfit members in my gym look like DYEL try hards and can’t lift for shit.
I will say, though, I have no problem with their methodology. Anyone can train however they want - it’s no skin off my back or anyone else’s. It’s the propaganda that boils my blood.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]susani wrote:
men stronger than women is just incorrect. There is a huge amount of overlap.
[/quote]
There’s not though
There is almost zero overlap in fact. Sexual dimorphism is a construct borne of millions of years of evolution, and no amount of positive thinking can overpower a force of that magnitude. In humans and primates especially it is very pronounced.
You’re right that with a little elbow grease a female can get stronger than some untrained males. But in order for them to keep up with a trained male they need to add steroids (and even then they’re usually still way behind) and if the male adds steroids, well they’re pretty much out of luck entirely.[/quote]
If you believe that then you have nothing to fear if women start to directly compete with men. And if it helps them to raise their game then everyone wins
Certainly my pullups came on in leaps and bounds when I got into a one year challenge with a strong, powerlifting personal trainer at my gym. I was starting out barely able to do pullups. He started out able to do 20 and 3 reps weighted by about 40kg.
So a huge head start on me and supposedly a genetic advantage (due to his gender). I’ve come on in leaps and bounds having a nice, tough challenge to work towards - someone stronger to beat. Like I said, I’m now ahead of the trained guys in my gym when it comes to pullups.
Some whine about me being lighter; others claim it’s because I put more training time in than them; others try to devalue the goal - pullups are a waste of time they insist. At the end of the day what counts is the result - each individual has to find what works best for them and then chase after their goal relentlessly.
Join in the challenge if you like - pullups max reps and most weight added for 3 reps (as percentage of bodyweight). Challenge day Feb 2015 - can’t remember the exact date. You’re starting late, but if you have the gender advantage that you claim that won’t phase you. I’m certainly not phased by anyones delusion of male superiority - it makes the game all the more fun
[quote]susani wrote:
Join in the challenge if you like - pullups max reps and most weight added for 3 reps (as percentage of bodyweight). Challenge day Feb 2015 - can’t remember the exact date. You’re starting late, but if you have the gender advantage that you claim that won’t phase you. I’m certainly not phased by anyones delusion of male superiority - it makes the game all the more fun :)[/quote]
You put your money where your mouth is; I like you! Just one set of max reps? Or like you did before where it’s like max reps in a day?
Also, for what it’s worth, despite my post about sexual dimorphism, when it comes to bodyweight endurance activity (not necessarily straight up strength), you gals are on a pretty even keel. Ecchastang may correct me on this… but if I’m not mistaken several of the all time greatest rock climbers have been females.
OK, the rules are:
Deadhang pullups with full lockout on each rep and chin above the bar at the top.
First part of the challenge is just max reps - most continuous reps without letting go of the bar. No time limit though so I guess you can hang for ages between reps if you want.
Second part of the challenge is 3 reps weighted - most weight as a percentage of bodyweight wins.
I’d actually like to add in a ‘most in 24 hours’ - and maybe one or two others. Just to test all aspects of strength/endurance/recovery. But the original challenge just has two parts.
We hadn’t actually got as far as deciding this, but I think probably the two parts of the challenge will be held on separate days. Sometime in Feb 2015.
If we’re now doing this from different sides of the world I guess video evidence is required.
Heading off to the gym right now to work on my pullups - with a little extra boost of motivation. Can’t loose face by failing now!!!
[quote]susani wrote:
Certainly my pullups came on in leaps and bounds when I got into a one year challenge with a strong, powerlifting personal trainer at my gym. I was starting out barely able to do pullups. He started out able to do 20 and 3 reps weighted by about 40kg.
[/quote]
How many inches did you add to your lats over that period?
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]susani wrote:
Join in the challenge if you like - pullups max reps and most weight added for 3 reps (as percentage of bodyweight). Challenge day Feb 2015 - can’t remember the exact date. You’re starting late, but if you have the gender advantage that you claim that won’t phase you. I’m certainly not phased by anyones delusion of male superiority - it makes the game all the more fun :)[/quote]
You put your money where your mouth is; I like you! Just one set of max reps? Or like you did before where it’s like max reps in a day?
Also, for what it’s worth, despite my post about sexual dimorphism, when it comes to bodyweight endurance activity (not necessarily straight up strength), you gals are on a pretty even keel. Ecchastang may correct me on this… but if I’m not mistaken several of the all time greatest rock climbers have been females.[/quote]
I get my ass kicked by female climbers all the time. The first person to ever free climb the nose of El Capitan was a female, Lynn Hill. It went 5 yrs before a male repeated the effort, and to date only 4 people have done it, two being females. To their advantage is that female fingers fit the crack used better than male, but I digress. An amazing accomplishment, none the less.
The highest grade climbed by a woman is 5.14d, done by about 10, whereas there are a couple hundred men that have climbed that grade, and men have climbed 3 grades harder (although only 2 men have climbed 3 grades harder and about 5 climbed two grades harder). For climbing known as bouldering, less than 5 women have climbed V13 (on a scale of V1-V16) and one of those was an 11 yr old girl, but that grade has been climbed by probably over 1000 men.
As to the pullup challenge, remind me in Feb 2015, and I will test that day. If I remember, I will train for a few weeks before so I am ready, as I really don’t train them much. I did do some weighted pullups today though, before reading about the challenge, and did a set of 4 with 85lbs, so 54% of bodyweight.
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
[quote]susani wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]susani wrote:
I’m not saying she’s stronger than all men. I’m saying she’s stronger than MOST men.
[/quote]
Well I concede that this is objectively true haha. She is certainly stronger than the vast majority of humans. The thing is though, the vast majority of humans, male or female, are exceptionally weak.
[quote]susani wrote:
Or more specifically, that she (and the other ladies who’s awesome bench press videos I’ve posted up) are proof of my claim that the assertion that “men are stronger than women” is false, misleading and likely to lead to women underachieving.
[/quote]
It’s not false though, it’s just science. Take Becca, huge amounts of gear, multi-ply equipment, 2000 total in the SHW class which is a world record amongst females. If we do an apples to apples comparison, steroids, multi-ply, super heavyweight, then the male equivalent is literally a thousand pounds more… You have to go down to the 148’s for males before the multi-ply total record goes below 2k.
[quote]susani wrote:
Not every woman will be capable of what Becca does - that’s for sure. Most men won’t be capable of it either - even on drugs.
[/quote]
Well… I’m not so sure. Given sufficient time, steroids, and decent training I think most males are quite capable of a 2000 multi-ply total. As long as they’re not just fantastically short or something lol.
I get what you’re saying, and you’re EXACTLY right about the training mentality amongst a lot of women. They limit themselves to their detriment. However… I don’t see why you think it necessary to try and go against basic biology and be “as strong as men”. I mean I feel like there is plenty of room for inspiration and motivation without that.
Do you know how many women I’ve ever seen in person squat 365lbs raw? None. There are women out there who can do that though. Is that not lofty enough to aspire towards? Do you really need Becca’s 800+lb multi-ply super steroid squat?
Work toward a 405 raw deadlift. That is insanely rare amongst any woman, but there are certainly women who have achieved it. I just don’t think it makes sense to try and match the men with a 600lb pull or something when there’s a 99.99% chance the girl isn’t even pulling 225 yet anyway…[/quote]
LOL - you’re still on a completely different tangent to me in your line of thinking. Not sure how to explain this more clearly…
OK, try it this way.
Most women aren’t training along side men with a 600lb pull. Most women are training amongst those men and women that, according to you, are pitifully weak. Because they’re led to believe that men are stronger than them they set their sights BELOW what the men around them are achieving. And as you know, we tend to get what we aim for.
A lot of women will be capable of getting much stronger than the men they’re training around/with. But they don’t try because of this missleading belief that men are stronger than women.
It’s like we discussed earlier re me and pullups. I’m now better at pullups than most men I come into contact with. Had I accepted this notion that men are stronger than women I’d never have managed to do a pullup simply because most men can’t do them. If men (who are stronger than women) can’t do them then how can I - a mere woman hope to manage it?
I simply wouldn’t have persisted with it and had I not persisted I wouldn’t have finally got to grips with it. Also, although it’s not the case with me, some women feel unfeminine if they’re stronger than a man. In their minds it suggests that they’re masculine.
I’m not suggesting that women try to compete with Becca - that’s a tall order! I’m suggesting that they try and compete with the men they see in the gym every day. The ones that are hugely weaker than Becca. Taking on Becca comes later when you’ve build up a bit of strength and confidence.
We’re conditioned to think in terms of gender - as if that is the most significant grouping when it comes to sport. But it’s not. Things like bodyweight, size, fat levels, experience, skill etc are more relevant groupings than gender.
I don’t know if you remember a few years back T-Nation published an article claiming blacks dominated certain sports. That they had an advantage over whites. That caused outrage - there were cries of racism. I personally thought it was perfectly valid - some groups do TEND to have an advantage over others.
But they still compete against each other and keep striving to make it to the top. The reality is that there are plenty of whites that are faster runners than most blacks. Really the situation with gender grouping is no different. It’s just that sexism is socially acceptable. Racism isn’t.
[/quote]
Gender DOES matter, just like in sprinting, race DOES matter. Of the 71 people who have broken the 10 second mark in the 100m, all are men, and 1 was Caucasian. That is not for lack of trying either. [/quote]
Omg limits. You’re setting limits. Please die.
But really train hard and progress why compare yourself to anyone unless your competing even then you compete with yourself. Are you better than last month the month before the year before. The answer should be yes. Not are your stronger than this man or woman. If you train like that bet your ass a woman will accomplish a pull-up no matter what man or woman trains around them