[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
I fall into the same category that people “know” I lift. I’m 6’3" 220lbs [/quote]
Lol that just made my day.
6’3" is not tall as hell. I understand 220lbs is not massive , thats why I continue to come to this site everyday , so I can constantly improve my knowledge to reach my goals. I also don’t compare myself to 250lbs genetic beasts , I compare myself to what I used to look like , and then rate my results.
[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
6’3" is not tall as hell. I understand 220lbs is not massive , thats why I continue to come to this site everyday , so I can constantly improve my knowledge to reach my goals. I also don’t compare myself to 250lbs genetic beasts , I compare myself to what I used to look like , and then rate my results.[/quote]
Guy, anything over 6’1" is considered very tall. Average height for a man is still UNDER 6 feet so why in the hell do you think 6’3" is NOT “tall as hell”?
This is a bodybuilding forum (it says so right above your own post), not a congregation of people who seem to think you can’t hold down a full time job and live a bodybuilding lifestyle.
Why would ANYONE listen to your advice or take on training when your goals are that average?
I’ve lifted for a few years now, and at my biggest I put on over 60lbs from where I started. I got there using traditional splits,upper/lower and total body. For me, I gained the most size using a 4 day a week split, and I gained the most strength using an upper/lower split. I personally like upper/lower best. Do what gives you the best results and you enjoy. What works for someone else may not work for you, but then again it may.
[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
6’3" is not tall as hell. I understand 220lbs is not massive , thats why I continue to come to this site everyday , so I can constantly improve my knowledge to reach my goals. I also don’t compare myself to 250lbs genetic beasts , I compare myself to what I used to look like , and then rate my results.[/quote]
250lbs genetic beast? At your height, that would be far from a genetic beast… But it likely requires more than just TBT.
I can’t respond to any one of these. Poliquin is the world’s best? really? I would venture a guess that he is well know by the internet crowd but my guess is some of the best don’t have glitzy websites and articles in free lay mags and the like.
Superheavys and heavys are not the only ones with fantastic development. Some simply don’t have the genetics for it. That limitation shouldn’t be claimed without years of effort. What are your goals? Are you efforts getting you closer to that? If yes, great. If not, change.
Westside is a gym. people outside of that gym are not training westside. Louis himself has said that I believe. Doggcrapp is the be all end all for some. Best? Who knows. Try it as written and report back your results. Don’t ignore the results of those who have succeeded. TBT works for some, for a long long time. If it ceases, try something else. This forum, to me, should be for the exchange of ideas.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
This forum, to me, should be for the exchange of ideas. [/quote]
Yes, and it IS.
But when the “idea” presented in this thread–and I quote–starts with “Are Bodypart Splits Useless?” you have to wonder.
[quote]derek wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
This forum, to me, should be for the exchange of ideas.
Yes, and it IS.
But when the “idea” presented in this thread–and I quote–starts with “Are Bodypart Splits Useless?” you have to wonder.[/quote]
Mind you, they seem to miss that huge fuckup to defend TBT. The very fact that this thread exists implies there are tons of people out there who actually seem to think split routines are somehow sub-par when that strategy has built more bodies up than any other.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Professor X wrote:
forbes wrote:
Uh, then how do you explain all of the really strong people who have trained with splits from the start?
maybe they had better work capacities and lactate thresholds. you see, maybe they could handle multiple sets of squats, leg press and leg extensions for their quads. maybe they’re gifted in handling such volume for each muscle group. i for one cant.
i tried a split routine, hitting each muscle group once a week with 12 sets. all that did was burn me out and got me nowhere.
[/quote]
Dude, nobody comes out of the womb being able to handle high volume like that from the beginning, it’s called adapation.
It seems like some of you are so afraid to actually train hard and push yourselves. Instead of writing your own epitath, try and go harder in the gym.
Work capacity and lactate threshold can all be adapted. You do realize you can increase these qualities right? But guess what, you won’t increase your work capacity traing only 2-3 times per week.
Currently I train calves 6 times a week, and everything else gets hit pretty much 3 times a week or more. Please tell me how with that frequency, I would use TBT. My workouts would take 3 hrs if I used TBT.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I can’t respond to any one of these. Poliquin is the world’s best? really? I would venture a guess that he is well know by the internet crowd but my guess is some of the best don’t have glitzy websites and articles in free lay mags and the like.
[/quote]
In terms of results, I would say yes, he’s the best right now. He’s trained more champions and Olympians and adamntly recommends splits and is anti-TBT. So if you disagree please present your case.
Why don’t we ask Christian Thib and countless others who actually train for a living, and I’m sure they would agree.
But that’s not even the point. The point was the guy trains world class olympians and pro athletes making millions of dollars and they all do splits. He said not one his clients does TBT and never will.
if by splits you mean bodypart training
then i would wager that’s the only way to do “bodybuilding”
bodybuilding being a term to describe sculpting
however, in a split i always use full body exercises
they both work
whole body training should be periodized
to help enhance HTMU recruitment
but if you want your upper chest to bulge and you’re a tri dominant guy
overhead press alone won’t do that job
I use incline cable flys
something i haven’t seen anyone else do
odd b/c i think it’s the only way to isolate your upper chest through a full range of motion
normal flys of course don’t use a full range of motion b/c you’re only working against gravity the first third of the lift
Poliquin on Splits vs. TBT from Question of Strength:
"Total Body vs. Body Part Splits… Again
Q: Some T-Nation coaches advocate training the whole body in one session; others usually use a body part split of some sort. The debate is endless, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on it!
A: I’m the first one to want to improve on any training system, but I do not know anyone successful in the strength coaching business who uses full body routines exclusively.
I’ve trained Olympic medalists in sixteen different sports, from energy system sports such as swimming to short-term explosive power sports such as shot put. For almost every single one of them, 70% of the time, I’ve used split routines and switched to whole body routines as their competition was nearing. Whether it’s Adam Nelson who won the World Championship in the shot put or Dwight Phillips who won it in the long jump, they all trained with split routines.
Workouts have to be short and effective, and when you train for relative strength you have to do a lot of sets. If you do a lot of sets, you can’t do a lot of exercises. Athletes need split training to get adequate recovery.
Adam Nelson’s split looked like this:
Day 1: Chest/back
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: Off
Day 4: Rotator cuff and arms
Day 5: Off
Adam, by the way, incline benches 525 pounds using a fat, three inch bar.
In bodybuilding, I don’t think Ronnie Coleman trains whole body three days a week. I’ve never known a successful bodybuilder, even the low set guys like Dorian Yates, to do whole body training.
The key is to recruit as many motor units as possible, and you have to think about the law of exercise order. There have been a few good studies done on this, but here’s the Reader’s Digest version:
If you have a group of lifters who do exercises A, B, C, and D in a workout, and you have a group do the same exercises in the reverse order (D, C, B, and A), what you find is that the first group makes the most progress on exercise A and the second group makes the most progress on exercise D. Basically, you’ll make the most progress on whatever you do first.
I’ve always found that when you get to the elite level, most athletes do best just doing two primary exercises per workout using multiple sets (like ten), and then training again six hours later.
Every single Olympian I’ve trained used split routines. I’ve been in this profession for 26 years and no one has ever convinced me, by their results, that full body routines are the only way to go.
Having coached at three different Olympics, I’ve had the opportunity to talk shop with many successful colleagues. Whether they were from Norway, Germany, or Finland, they all came to the conclusion that split routines were far more advantageous than total body routines."
Nuff said.
[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
Professor X wrote:
handthatfeeds wrote:
Professor X wrote:
handthatfeeds wrote:
Arguing whats better between splits and TBT is like arguing whats better between bench press with a barbell or bench press with dumbbells?.
No, it isn’t. How can it be when we can see half a century of bodybuilders who trained a certain way and most who train the other rarely ever reach anywhere near that size?
What are your stats?
I’m talking in regards to the average person who works full time and is trying to get in shape. I understand splits are better for someone who is a bodybuilder , but why compare an average person to someone who lives a bodybuilding lifestyle? If the OP falls into the “average person” then the answer is there both effective. I would know , I fall into that category , and have made significant gains doing splits and TBT , in particular TBT programs.
I work full time and do splits. I may or may not compete, but one thing I do know is that people KNOW I lift when they see me no matter what I have on.
Are you truly under the delusion that you can’t live a bodybuilding lifestyle and have a job?
Why are some of you on this site if your goals are that minimal?
I fall into the same category that people “know” I lift. I’m 6’3" 220lbs (Don’t know my BF% but I’m lean and my abs are almost showing). I’m not AGAINST splits , I am saying I personally have made the most gains while doing TBT workouts. I eat very well , consume whey shakes and Fish oil , workout my muscles 3x week , and have made significant progress. For me personally , my muscles grow more when hit with frequency rather then volume. Maybe your different , if so then do splits. But to say splits are better the TBT for the average person is not true. How do I know this? Because i’m living proof. [/quote]
I think you are def above average, and from the sounds of it, you’re trying at more than just size
but fat loss
since your abs “aren’t” showing
abs almost and abs are showing is not the same thing
you are using TBT as a means to attack both goals simultaneously
which is good
that’s the right idea
you get more of an elevated EPOC with total body workouts even though you may be breathing just as hard
more muscles use more oxygen, leading to greater fat loss
however you can’t do a full day of TBT focusing solely on size results
for more than a couple years and still expect awesome results
[edit: i’m not Charles Poliquin, nor am I Chad Waterbury, NO SHIIIT, but I do read every article that comes out of this site, and I’ve never seen the big guys in the gym use more than 3 TBT methods, and you should know what they are, you’d be lucky to even see them do those, b/c the amount of fatigue you accumulate is too much too fast, isolated lactic acid has a huge impact on continued results, and i don’t just mean fatigue, i mean lactic buildup.
I’m sure if you were really smart and knew variation techniques front and back you could make it work, but you could do the same thing with better results just isolating and blowing a little more time at the gym]
first it’s hard to get any variation, unless you are simply working with set/rep scheme, slight variations of the same exercise, and tempo
those are all well and good
but the surplus of exercises used for BBing split training
is SO VAST you can’t possibly know them all b/c they’re infinite
TOO MANY variations on leverage, range of motion, synergist recruiting variations, angle of lift performed… the list goes on
you’d be best doing ur full body split in the morning and attacking a body part split at night
there are some awesome articles that approach that basic style of lifting
and it’s preached in all the best National PT accredited texts
complex movements then isolated movements
leaving machines dead last after cables
I don’t know how much you read on this site
BUT if you read as much as you claim you should know damn well
EVERYTHING WORKS-Dan John
Ya just gotta love some of these guys.
I think I’ll start a thread asking if automobiles are useless and then spend 5 pages defending the idea that they must be because somebody somewhere gets along fine without one.
If you are using a programme you are splitting the volume up in some manner all programmes are “splits” of a sort.
If you want to increase in size which do you think is going to work best a 3 hours a week and the Volume load that goes with that or a 5 day a week 8-10 hour split and the volume that goes with it?
The numbers speak for themselves not one successful strength coach, advanced strength athlete or bodybuilder uses an exclusive TBT approach.
However I’m pretty sure you find a large number who use a split (weither it be total body or exercise and assitance splits).
Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is talking out of their arse.
I think the major conflict lie therein with the complexity of putting together a complete well thought out whole body program
people do it on a daily basis
it’s not that hard
but to me and the way I think a program should be put together
I’d just like to see your program…
I’ll wait, b/c I’m eager to see it
in case you already posted it and I skipped it with the first two pages then let me know
I wanna know the following…(if they matter to you)
TEMPO
VARIATIONS
LOAD PERCENTAGES/WEIGHT
EXERCISES
WEEKLY/MONTHLY ROUTINE
and most importantly
NUTRITION
leave out what you wish but i think this will either make everyone on the thread scream or go “okay well do what works for you”
b/c you know there’s no convincing these guys
THEY’RE FULL OF TESTOSTERONE
[quote]caselorance wrote:
b/c you know there’s no convincing these guys
THEY’RE FULL OF TESTOSTERONE[/quote]
And you think it’s testosterone that makes us unwilling to concede?
It’s more like thousands of bodybuilders over dozens of years and all the evidence resulting thereof.
Hormone levels have nothing to do with this, it’s logic.
(let me know if I misunderstood your point above, you may be on “my” side here, I can’t tell)
[quote]derek wrote:
caselorance wrote:
b/c you know there’s no convincing these guys
THEY’RE FULL OF TESTOSTERONE
And you think it’s testosterone that makes us unwilling to concede?
It’s more like thousands of bodybuilders over dozens of years and all the evidence resulting thereof.
Hormone levels have nothing to do with this, it’s logic.
(let me know if I misunderstood your point above, you may be on “my” side here, I can’t tell)[/quote]
I agree to a varying degree, it’s my experience that despite logic
the most testosterone one has the less likely he is to concede a proven point
example
my dad drinks
i work out
both are known to increase test
everytime i’ve gotten kicked out
was a result of us arguing after i got done with a high intensity workout
normally I would be willing to just say fuck it
but my logic was clouded by my momentary lust to be proven right
another example
my friend eric whom i consider to have more testosterone than anyone on this cite
is not the epitome of logic in any sense but he will never concede a point
even to his two best and most intelligent friends
I could be wrong there could be varying degrees of other factors
as is the case with real world examples but
that is my experience
nothing I said was meant to discredit credible sources or individuals
but you can’t really say that you’ve convince a whole lot of guys of your viewpoint on this cite and recognized their own submission to you being right… if so I’m dead wrong
if not I’ve made my point
testosterone makes arguing a point somewhat moot in my experience
the more you get someone riled up the less likely you are to hear them admit you are right
AGREED?
[quote]caselorance wrote:
derek wrote:
caselorance wrote:
b/c you know there’s no convincing these guys
THEY’RE FULL OF TESTOSTERONE
And you think it’s testosterone that makes us unwilling to concede?
It’s more like thousands of bodybuilders over dozens of years and all the evidence resulting thereof.
Hormone levels have nothing to do with this, it’s logic.
(let me know if I misunderstood your point above, you may be on “my” side here, I can’t tell)
I agree to a varying degree, it’s my experience that despite logic
the most testosterone one has the less likely he is to concede a proven point
example
my dad drinks
i work out
both are known to increase test
everytime i’ve gotten kicked out
was a result of us arguing after i got done with a high intensity workout
normally I would be willing to just say fuck it
but my logic was clouded by my momentary lust to be proven right
another example
my friend eric whom i consider to have more testosterone than anyone on this cite
is not the epitome of logic in any sense but he will never concede a point
even to his two best and most intelligent friends
I could be wrong there could be varying degrees of other factors
as is the case with real world examples but
that is my experience
nothing I said was meant to discredit credible sources or individuals
but you can’t really say that you’ve convince a whole lot of guys of your viewpoint on this cite and recognized their own submission to you being right… if so I’m dead wrong
if not I’ve made my point
testosterone makes arguing a point somewhat moot in my experience
the more you get someone riled up the less likely you are to hear them admit you are right
AGREED?[/quote]
Did you honestly just try to claim that the more testosterone someone has the more illogical they are?
What the fuck are you smoking?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
caselorance wrote:
derek wrote:
caselorance wrote:
b/c you know there’s no convincing these guys
THEY’RE FULL OF TESTOSTERONE
And you think it’s testosterone that makes us unwilling to concede?
It’s more like thousands of bodybuilders over dozens of years and all the evidence resulting thereof.
Hormone levels have nothing to do with this, it’s logic.
(let me know if I misunderstood your point above, you may be on “my” side here, I can’t tell)
I agree to a varying degree, it’s my experience that despite logic
the most testosterone one has the less likely he is to concede a proven point
example
my dad drinks
i work out
both are known to increase test
everytime i’ve gotten kicked out
was a result of us arguing after i got done with a high intensity workout
normally I would be willing to just say fuck it
but my logic was clouded by my momentary lust to be proven right
another example
my friend eric whom i consider to have more testosterone than anyone on this cite
is not the epitome of logic in any sense but he will never concede a point
even to his two best and most intelligent friends
I could be wrong there could be varying degrees of other factors
as is the case with real world examples but
that is my experience
nothing I said was meant to discredit credible sources or individuals
but you can’t really say that you’ve convince a whole lot of guys of your viewpoint on this cite and recognized their own submission to you being right… if so I’m dead wrong
if not I’ve made my point
testosterone makes arguing a point somewhat moot in my experience
the more you get someone riled up the less likely you are to hear them admit you are right
AGREED?
Did you honestly just try to claim that the more testosterone someone has the more illogical they are?
What the fuck are you smoking?[/quote]
I thought he was writing a poem.