[quote]leon79 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
austin_bicep wrote:
I can’t keep up witht his thread lol. I had work, came back and it was 5 pages longer.
Yeah, no shit… Try reading it from the beginning, it’s like reading Heart Of Darkness 
Nice Conrad reference on a bodybuilding forum. Color me impressed.[/quote]
Imagine how much fun it was to go through that book as a German with rather limited experience with the English language…
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
forlife wrote:
I prefer TBT, but that’s based on my personal experience. My first 4 years were splits and the last 2 have been TBT. I’ve seen more muscle growth since moving to TBT, but what does that mean?
Maybe it’s because TBT was a change to my routine, that forced my body to adapt. If I had started with TBT and switched to splits, maybe I would have seen the same growth.
I do know that TBT is more enjoyable for me. The variety keeps my workouts interesting. I’m going to stay with it until I hit a plateau at least.
I wonder what your split and eating during that time period looked like…
[/quote]
…and I wonder how much weight has has gained overall.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
forlife wrote:
I prefer TBT, but that’s based on my personal experience. My first 4 years were splits and the last 2 have been TBT. I’ve seen more muscle growth since moving to TBT, but what does that mean?
Maybe it’s because TBT was a change to my routine, that forced my body to adapt. If I had started with TBT and switched to splits, maybe I would have seen the same growth.
I do know that TBT is more enjoyable for me. The variety keeps my workouts interesting. I’m going to stay with it until I hit a plateau at least.
I wonder what your split and eating during that time period looked like…
…and I wonder how much weight has has gained overall.[/quote]
After looking at his profile pics I must honestly question what he’s been doing all those years.
No offense, forlife, but did it ever occur to you that you’re doing some things fundamentally wrong, regardless of what program you use ?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The point is, what did he do to BUILD that size, not what is he doing now that he has it.
I keep writing this…and you keep missing it.
i haven’t missed it once. i assume that considering he says 4x a week hasn’t allowed him to recover well he obviously hasnt put most of his size on using it
That is one huge fucking assumption. Had it occurred to you that he RECENTLY dropped his days down to three a week?
No, that just couldn’t happen. He obviously trained just like you see him now from day one.
This has gotten stupid. No one trains exactly the same after they gain 80lbs of muscle as they did when they first started. I train only one muscle group a day because any more than that would leave me too wiped out to sufficiently train another large muscle group. That doesn’t mean that I NEVER trained more body parts on one day.
This is shit you will NOT know unless you actually know this guy very well on a friend level and he goes into specific detail about how he trained for years.[/quote]
are you missing what i’m saying on purpose? He said 4x a week never let him recover enough. not “oh well at this point in time it doesn’t”, he just said he cant recover well from it. Obviously if he had gained a lot of muscle in the past from 4x a week he wouldn’t have said that. If anything he’d have a higher work capacity now then before.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
are you missing what i’m saying on purpose? He said 4x a week never let him recover enough. not “oh well at this point in time it doesn’t”, he just said he cant recover well from it. Obviously if he had gained a lot of muscle in the past from 4x a week he wouldn’t have said that. If anything he’d have a higher work capacity now then before.[/quote]
Just out of curiosity, could you please repost that link?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
are you missing what i’m saying on purpose? He said 4x a week never let him recover enough. not “oh well at this point in time it doesn’t”, he just said he cant recover well from it. Obviously if he had gained a lot of muscle in the past from 4x a week he wouldn’t have said that. If anything he’d have a higher work capacity now then before.[/quote]
and it’s still just one person
Do what works for you
I think most of us have tried both and sometimes still do both
For me splits work best for muscle gains.
maybe you are different
If you think recover ability is going to improve more than a tiny amount(with adequate food supplements and knowledge how to train) from what you were given by genetics you are going to miss out. Dorian is a perfect example of growing out of his splits
First was a full body(for a few months)
Then he required more rest because he was stronger and did and upper lower
Then a push pull legs rotation
Then 1-2 bodyparts per session.
If your idea of work capacity was true he never would have had to stop training full body. It’s more growth phases so why not?
That 185x10 squat you did 6 months into your training program is NOT going to have the same effect recovery wise as the 450x10 squat you do 6 years later but your recovery will be about the same. Who can train more often the beginner or the advanced?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The point is, what did he do to BUILD that size, not what is he doing now that he has it.
I keep writing this…and you keep missing it.
i haven’t missed it once. i assume that considering he says 4x a week hasn’t allowed him to recover well he obviously hasnt put most of his size on using it
That is one huge fucking assumption. Had it occurred to you that he RECENTLY dropped his days down to three a week?
No, that just couldn’t happen. He obviously trained just like you see him now from day one.
This has gotten stupid. No one trains exactly the same after they gain 80lbs of muscle as they did when they first started. I train only one muscle group a day because any more than that would leave me too wiped out to sufficiently train another large muscle group. That doesn’t mean that I NEVER trained more body parts on one day.
This is shit you will NOT know unless you actually know this guy very well on a friend level and he goes into specific detail about how he trained for years.
are you missing what i’m saying on purpose? He said 4x a week never let him recover enough. not “oh well at this point in time it doesn’t”, he just said he cant recover well from it. Obviously if he had gained a lot of muscle in the past from 4x a week he wouldn’t have said that. If anything he’d have a higher work capacity now then before.[/quote]
www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6823
He also claims to be “CNS challenged”. Any pics of this guy?
I am not “CNS challenged” and have never even heard this term before. If these are the types you want to follow, so be it. Have fun and let us know when you gain 50lbs.
No offense taken.
I started working out later in life (36 then, 42 now). I expect to see good progress, but it’s not going to be like someone working out in his 20s-30s.
Six years ago, I weighed 205 pounds at 5’6". I’ve lost 70 pounds of fat, and put on 30 pounds of muscle. Not where I want to be yet, but I feel good about my progress so far.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
leon79 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
austin_bicep wrote:
I can’t keep up witht his thread lol. I had work, came back and it was 5 pages longer.
Yeah, no shit… Try reading it from the beginning, it’s like reading Heart Of Darkness
Nice Conrad reference on a bodybuilding forum. Color me impressed.
Imagine how much fun it was to go through that book as a German with rather limited experience with the English language…
[/quote]
A friend of mine who read it first warned me that it would be the most dense 70 or so pages I would ever read. How right he was.
Sorry. Back to the topic.
[quote]forlife wrote:
No offense taken.
I started working out later in life (36 then, 42 now). I expect to see good progress, but it’s not going to be like someone working out in his 20s-30s.
Six years ago, I weighed 205 pounds at 5’6". I’ve lost 70 pounds of fat, and put on 30 pounds of muscle. Not where I want to be yet, but I feel good about my progress so far.[/quote]
Ah, someone who didn’t pay his dues early on 
Yeah, you’re going to have a harder time than us… But better late than never.
I do strongly suggest not restricting your BF and eating much though, at your age, hormonal-makeup and everything work against you and doing something that makes muscle-growth harder will make your progress even slower…
Good luck with your training, old man ^.^ (jesus I can make some gay smileys…)
[quote]Professor X wrote:
So you jumped into the bodybuilding forum…into a thread about what works best for bodybuilding…to tell us about powerlifters?
This is why there is a T-Cell. I have never jumped into the strength forum…into a thread about powerlifting…to talk about bodybuilding unless someone brought up some specific point in that area. Yet, tons of you come here when you don’t even bodybuild.[/quote]
You hit the nail on the head… The original posted stated he read an artical…what artical???for what sport???BBing, football, MMA, powerlifters???
I think this was started by someone trying to stir the pot???
Professor Wesley/Iron Addict is pretty beat up and hasn’t posted pictures in over 10 years… his trainees are largely pretty successful though. He does have to dumb down a lot of things online and often times gets painted as the “hard gainer” guy because of it. He trains like the Westside guys and bases a lot of trainees programs on that. Someone on this very forum was trained by him and was on Chest/Back Shoulders/Arms Legs routine if I remember correctly.
Edit: well physique shots anyway
This is his face after a recent motorcycle accident
www.ironaddicts.com/pics/broken.jpg
I train 3 very hard days a week on a 3 way split and am still growing. However, if I were younger I would go to every other day and may still actually do that for a trial run. I’ve been fiddling with that idea or going full time DC for quite a while, but this keeps working. I used to have delts, calves and abs on a day by themselves with quads on one day, back and bi’s on another and shoulders and chest on another.
People in the prime of life will usually do better with more than 3 days a week. Actually sometimes I throw a bit of supplemental work on weaker groups on fourth day now.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I train 3 very hard days a week on a 3 way split and am still growing. However, if I were younger I would go to every other day and may still actually do that for a trial run. I’ve been fiddling with that idea or going full time DC for quite a while, but this keeps working. I used to have delts, calves and abs on a day by themselves with quads on one day, back and bi’s on another and shoulders and chest on another.
People in the prime of life will usually do better with more than 3 days a week. Actually sometimes I throw a bit of supplemental work on weaker groups on fourth day now.
[/quote]
It depends on what you are doing on those days. I did legs alone last night. I will probably either do back or biceps tonight. Training one body part a day allows me to train that often and still get out of the gym in under one hour (often in about 40-45min).
Thanks man. You bring up a good point on BF%. I know people differ on this, but personally I don’t mind going with slower muscle growth to keep my BF% in a range I find acceptable. I’m sure that is part of the reason I’ve only gained 30 pounds of muscle in 6 years.
I wonder if there’s anything to the effectiveness of TBT vs. splits based on age. Maybe splits are better if you’re younger?
It seems that TBT would create a “shotgun” stimulus for muscle growth, hitting more muscle groups but not as hard. Maybe that is easier to recover from than an intense session focusing on just one muscle group. The intensity might be harder to take advantage of when you’re older.
Just speculating. All I know is that for me, there has been more noticeable muscle growth since switching to TBT. Like I said earlier, that could be due to TBT or it could be simply from changing my routine.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Slight retraction. AC does discuss splits in “TNROL.” He discusses upper/lower body, a 3 day split, four-day Ian King style split, and a Westside split. When it comes to “bodybuilding splits,” he says this on page 43:
“The idea is to isolate muscle groups (“bodyparts”)and work them to exhaustion, as if they were revolutionary insurgents in a third-world country who have to be divided and conquered. I’ve seen bodybuilding routines with 12 workouts a week-two a day for six days. Entire workouts might be devoted to biceps or triceps or hamstrings, isolating these muscles from the ones they’re designed to work with. If Alwyn and I believed in this type of training, we’d show you how to do it. But we don’t, so we won’t.”
Does this mean he doesn’t believe in “bodypart splits”? I don’t really know. He gives a tiny rationale for going to a split routine (after saying he was a “big fan of TBT” on the previous page) on page 41, but the explanation you posted above is a lot more clear and understandable. [/quote]
If I’m not mistaken Lou Schuler wrote NROL and AC provided the programs. I’d check for you but I no longer own a copy of that book.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Thanks man. You bring up a good point on BF%. I know people differ on this, but personally I don’t mind going with slower muscle growth to keep my BF% in a range I find acceptable. I’m sure that is part of the reason I’ve only gained 30 pounds of muscle in 6 years.
I wonder if there’s anything to the effectiveness of TBT vs. splits based on age. Maybe splits are better if you’re younger?
It seems that TBT would create a “shotgun” stimulus for muscle growth, hitting more muscle groups but not as hard. Maybe that is easier to recover from than an intense session focusing on just one muscle group. The intensity might be harder to take advantage of when you’re older.
Just speculating. All I know is that for me, there has been more noticeable muscle growth since switching to TBT. Like I said earlier, that could be due to TBT or it could be simply from changing my routine.[/quote]
I’m just warning you that the human body, especially at your age, doesn’t care much about adding metabolically costly muscle-tissue when it’s energy-stores appear to be low.
It ultimately depends on what your goal is, looking just a little better than average will be quite possible the way you go about it, but more than that…
There is a post by Dante about this, now this is about bodybuilders and may thus not apply to you, but read it anyway (I’m not posting it to piss you off or anything, just to give some insight and possibly provide some more motivation):
Doggcrapp
Super Moderator/Roundtable Expert
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,338
Paying Your Dues
PAYING YOUR DUES
This post is for everyone in this forum–
its very important to read over–VERY IMPORTANT.
Want to know the average trainee that comes to me?
He is 35-45 years old and after 10-15 years of lifting weighs 175 to 210lbs. He looks at me as the guy that somehow can pull a bunny out of a hat and make him that 250lb ripped bodybuilder walking the streets… where he couldnt even get close to that level by himself.
He is scrambling around because he doesnt want to get to 50 years old never feeling what it was like to walk thru a crowd and people gawk, stare, and point because he is a damn good bodybuilder.
Well what the hell have you been doing all these years?!?!?!
You should of put in your f*^&ing dues like the rest of us.
These same guys think Im a miracle worker that can somehow add 80lbs of muscle mass on their frame while losing 30lbs of fat while keeping incredibly lean thruout the journey to get there.
Well guess what? YOU FUCKED UP.
Want to know the fastest way to walk around at 250 ripped–THE ABSOLUTELY G’DAMN FASTEST WAY TO GET THERE? TAKE 2 YEARS AND EAT HUGE AMOUNTS OF FOOD, AND TRAIN WITH BRUTALLY HEAVY WEIGHTS, AND BECOME A BIG FAT OFFENSIVE LINEMAN LOOKING GUY AT 330LBS…AND NO IT WONT BE PRETTY…AT ALL.
MOST OF ALL DONT DO ANYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY EVEN IMPEDE THE SLIGHTEST IN MUSCLE MASS GAIN. Just eat copious amounts of food (up to 500-600 grams of protein) and bring your bodyweight up the charts which will allow you leverage and strength gains to allow you use the incredible weights you have to use in the gym to accomplish this. Then after being at that level for density reasons for awhile, you can slowly take it down and I mean slowly and most likely have the most muscle mass gain your genetics allowed in that time frame.
That is the probably the fastest way in the shortest time to get there. But definitely not the most desirable but truth is truth. Am i recommending that approach–HELL NO, but if we are talking about getting this done as fast as humanly possible then I have to be blunt.
Noone wants to look like a fat slob even if it means the end result will be much closer to their ideal.
And these guys 35-45 years old want me to keep them pretty boy lean and wave the magic wand and make them into Milos Sarcev after they pretty much just wasted 10-15 years of training.
I dont like using myself for an example but I will here. I started training at about 20 at 137lbs and predominantly spent the next 15 years eating tremendous amounts of food, training with very heavy weights but keeping active so I am at a leaness I personally am satisfied with.
I topped out at about 303lbs [quote] actually I think he went up to 330 since then for once or so, dunno, the post is kinda old[/quote] but currently hang around 283-288 because thats what I like to be at.
I put my dues in here.
I might jump in a show if time allows but because of my schedule currently we will have to see how that works out.
Mainly Im looking forward to the day I can kind of relax and not push the limits like I have all these years. The 6 meals a day every day, and the war with the logbook along with lugging around 285-300lbs sometimes becomes very tedious.
I go to bed at nite thinking exactly what Im going to do and what all this hard work will easily allow myself to do when I decide to crank the dial downward. Cardio will be done 6 times a week for health and bodyfat reasons and that will take priority.
Back to the subject on hand here. So what will all this hard work for the past 15 years allow me to do? I’m in my mid 30’s now so for the rest of my 30’s and thru my 40’ and 50’s i can pretty much walk around at 250lbs hard as a rock at a very low bodyfat percentage. Ive set myself up so that will be very very easy. I actually have to do much less than everything I do now (except cardio) to be there. Ill use guys in this forum for examples, Inhuman and massive G are both around 5’9", 5’10" and are offseason 280 to 300. They have spent the time and food consumption and paid their dues to get there. Massive G I believe is mid 30’s and Inhuman is early 40’s I believe. Both these guys will be able to crank this down and enjoy walking around with full abs, hard as granite with veins everywhere at 240-260lbs. They have set themselves up and paid their dues in their 20’s and 30’s to do that.
You guys that are 35-45 years old who want this but weigh 175-210lbs are playing catchup and are so behind the race its sad.
My point of this post is to get guys in their early 20’s to think, to get guys who just blew 10 years of training who are in their 30’s to think, and to get guys who just blew 10-15 years of training who are in their 40’s to think.
Am I advising bulking up? No that was a hypothetical example.
Im advising you get your freaking head on straight if you want this so bad.
That means extreme food intake pronto, with the heaviest weights in good form that you can use progressively, extreme stretching and enough cardio (and bodyfat protocols) that it keeps you at a leaness your satisfied with as you get dramatically larger.
This sport isnt unlike a career.
You have to set yourself up early so you can be right where you want to be late. Theres alot of you guys 35-45 years old in this forum, some that I even train, that think they want it but really dont have what it takes to go get it. I see it in their workouts they send me (they take the easy comfortable road never pushing the limits) and for those that I dont train I sometimes see it in your posts—you just dont have what it takes.
I can only provide a guide to get there, I cant create an inner drive for you.
You have to start thinking in terms of point B from point A. Do you really think that eating 3000 calories with 225 grams of protein and doing the Weider “confusion training principle” to keep your body offguard will somehow magically make your 175lbs into 250lbs of rock granite monstrosity? Every year of training is so damn important. If you just trained for a whole year and only gained 2lbs of muscle mass, you just pretty much wasted a productive year of training–its gone–its lost and you arent getting that year back.
Three weeks ago I was contacted by someone in his early 40’s who had been lifting for many years, weighed about 170lbs and showed me a picture of Geir Borgan Paulsen and said thats what he wanted to look like and can i get him there?!. Laughable. Geir Borgan Paulsen is 50 years old and looks freaking phenomenal. He is a tiny bit (and i mean every so slightly tiny bit smaller) than he was when he competed in his 30’s.
Instead of wasting years and years of lifting getting absolutely nowhere, Geir spent his 20’s and 30’s eating huge amounts of food and training with heavy heavy weights so that he could walk around all thru his 30’s, 40’s and now 50 years old jacked to the hilt. Not many people have a better front double biceps than Geir no matter what age they are…here he is http://www.nutritionoutlet.nu/galler...02/borgan.html
What Im hoping to relay to you slackers and dreamers that are in this forum is that you have to put your time in and pay your dues in this sport. Your 2-3lbs gain a year arent going to get it done so unless you want to get to 55 years old and look back and think “wow besides the people I told and myself, noone even knew I was a bodybuilder and I never made it”…you better get your ass in gear and your head on right and get this done now.
Gaining fat is easy but if you never lifted how long would it take for you to gain 80lbs of fat from 175 to 255lbs? Probably a year and you would have to forcefeed yourself to get there. Just think how long it takes to put on 80lbs of muscle mass which is an extremely “hard to come by” commodity. This sport is about extremes–using weights you havent used previously, taking in amounts of food to build greater muscle mass-in amounts you never have done previously, and GETTING THE CARDIO DONE to keep you at an acceptable offseason training bodyfat that keeps you happy. Get your act together and think this all out or quit your complaining and dreaming and take up tennis.
(I’ve quoted this one before in some other thread)
Once again, not saying that this necessarily all applies to you, it’s just some food for thought.
Great article, I actually read it just last week.
I don’t disagree with anything he said. It’s true that in order to see the fastest muscle gains, you have to be willing to put on some fat. People talk about this endlessly on the boards.
It all comes down to your personal goals. There’s no magic answer that fits everyone. You have to decide how much muscle you want to gain, and what price you are willing to pay in BF% in order to get there.
The important thing, and I think this is the key point of the article, is to be realistic. Don’t expect to eat like a bird and put on 50 pounds of muscle.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Great article, I actually read it just last week.
I don’t disagree with anything he said. It’s true that in order to see the fastest muscle gains, you have to be willing to put on some fat. People talk about this endlessly on the boards.
It all comes down to your personal goals. There’s no magic answer that fits everyone. You have to decide how much muscle you want to gain, and what price you are willing to pay in BF% in order to get there.
The important thing, and I think this is the key point of the article, is to be realistic. Don’t expect to eat like a bird and put on 50 pounds of muscle.[/quote]
Good that you are not one of those people who are in constant denial of this.
I wish you luck with reaching your goals, whatever they may be.