Are Bodypart Splits Useless?

Training Bodybuilding
501

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Also, just to make it clear, when I write “HUGE”, I am NOT referring to some person who looks like they MAY lift regularly. I am talking about arms close to 20" or more and a need for shirts with more than one “X” in the size label.

Of course.

Btw,

Sometimes when I see 4 or 5 day splits on websites or whatever there are like 4-5 exercises per boy part, which is obviously a lot harder to recover from than say 2-3 per body part.

I think some people may resort to 3 day splits because they may have too many exercises and not focussing on the quality and intensity. What is your take on this? Do you think doing more than 2-3 exercises per body part (not lagging body parts tho) is necessary or is it just cutting into recovery?

I know when I first did a 4 day split I got overtrained, but when I cut back a bit on the overall number of exercises (as well as increasing food intake) it became much easier to progress.

(I know this thread isn’t exactly just about you but while we are on the topic just thought I would ask).

2-3 exercises per body part is the classic way to set up a split schedule.

2-3 exercises per body part doing around 3 sets per exercise.

This is of course variable and based on where you are personally in your training life.

Also, I am betting that most of you who claim “overtraining” are also the same ones who think how much you eat should be extremely restrictive since you think everyone needs to maintain 10% body fat from start to finish.

Food is your fuel. If you don’t have enough of it, how could you expect to train harder? It won’t happen. When the goal is size, if the scale isn’t moving at all, you are not doing it right in terms of anabolism.[/quote]

Don’t forget to mention warm ups and pyramiding the weight up… Just to be on the safe side.
Some people seem to think that 3 sets per exercise means walking into the gym, grabbing their 6-8"RM" and doing 3 sets to failure with that very weight…

502

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.[/quote]

Dude, how can you not focus on strength ? You always try to outdo what you did the last time in the gym weight/rep wise.

If you hit a plateau, there are many ways around that.
People seem to be under the delusion that bodybuilding means lifting the same weights over and over for high reps and lots of sets while expecting to grow…

503

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Don’t forget to mention warm ups and pyramiding the weight up… Just to be on the safe side.
Some people seem to think that 3 sets per exercise means walking into the gym, grabbing their 6-8"RM" and doing 3 sets to failure with that very weight…[/quote]

Agreed. I always pyramid up in weight. Not doing so is a great way to injure yourself once you move to much heavier weight.

504

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.

Dude, how can you not focus on strength ? You always try to outdo what you did the last time in the gym weight/rep wise.
If you hit a plateau, there are many ways around that.
Some people seem to be under the delusion that bodybuilding means lifting the same weights over and over for high reps and lots of sets while expecting to grow…

[/quote]

…which is retarded. I train for strength. I eat for size.

Who the hell is doing differently yet growing?

You can NOT stay at the same strength level and expect to grow much muscle from it.

505

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.

Dude, how can you not focus on strength ? You always try to outdo what you did the last time in the gym weight/rep wise.
If you hit a plateau, there are many ways around that.
People seem to be under the delusion that bodybuilding means lifting the same weights over and over for high reps and lots of sets while expecting to grow…

[/quote]

Thats not what I mean at all.

I mean there is a difference lifting in the 5-10 rep range and eating enough to grow and gain muscle, than maintaining your weight and just getting stronger.

506

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.

Dude, how can you not focus on strength ? You always try to outdo what you did the last time in the gym weight/rep wise.
If you hit a plateau, there are many ways around that.
Some people seem to be under the delusion that bodybuilding means lifting the same weights over and over for high reps and lots of sets while expecting to grow…

…which is retarded. I train for strength. I eat for size.

Who the hell is doing differently yet growing?

You can NOT stay at the same strength level and expect to grow much muscle from it.[/quote]

Thats not what I mean.

You are right that you can’t stay at the same strength level and get bigger… but you cant stay at the same (miniscule) food level and get bigger either, which is something I have seen recommended to beginners just because they arent lifting very heavy yet “so how can they be building anything but fat when they gain weight”.

It’s wrong, of course, but I am surprised there are people recommending that.

For some reason you guys missed the ‘but gain no more than 1lb a MONTH’ part of what I said.

507

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.

Dude, how can you not focus on strength ? You always try to outdo what you did the last time in the gym weight/rep wise.
If you hit a plateau, there are many ways around that.
Some people seem to be under the delusion that bodybuilding means lifting the same weights over and over for high reps and lots of sets while expecting to grow…

…which is retarded. I train for strength. I eat for size.

Who the hell is doing differently yet growing?

You can NOT stay at the same strength level and expect to grow much muscle from it.

Thats not what I mean.

You are right that you can’t stay at the same strength level and get bigger… but you cant stay at the same (miniscule) food level and get bigger either, which is something I have seen recommended to beginners just because they arent lifting very heavy yet “so how can they be building anything but fat when they gain weight”.

It’s wrong, of course, but I am surprised there are people recommending that.

For some reason you guys missed the ‘but gain no more than 1lb a MONTH’ part of what I said.[/quote]

I didn’t miss it. My last post wasn’t directed at you personally.

508

[quote]silverbullet wrote:
I just read an article about how full body training is better than splits. The article ALMOST but not quite went as far as to say that if you were doing splits. You wouldn�??t make gains unless you were on drugs. Now I�??ve build some descent muscle so far drug free and on a split routine. So I don�??t understand why people would say that splits are useless???

I�??m incredibly curious about this. Because if I�??m building muscle using an inferior method, then theoretically I should explode if I switch to full body or an upper lower split (the only split the article thought would be beneficial drug free)

I take a look at the guys in the powerful images. Could you build a body like that using full body training???
[/quote]

What was the article you read? where can I find such an article…in what context was the article written…sports,BBing, strong man, power lifting or for the average person…?

509

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.

Dude, how can you not focus on strength ? You always try to outdo what you did the last time in the gym weight/rep wise.
If you hit a plateau, there are many ways around that.
Some people seem to be under the delusion that bodybuilding means lifting the same weights over and over for high reps and lots of sets while expecting to grow…

…which is retarded. I train for strength. I eat for size.

Who the hell is doing differently yet growing?

You can NOT stay at the same strength level and expect to grow much muscle from it.

Thats not what I mean.

You are right that you can’t stay at the same strength level and get bigger… but you cant stay at the same (miniscule) food level and get bigger either, which is something I have seen recommended to beginners just because they arent lifting very heavy yet “so how can they be building anything but fat when they gain weight”.

It’s wrong, of course, but I am surprised there are people recommending that.

For some reason you guys missed the ‘but gain no more than 1lb a MONTH’ part of what I said.[/quote]

My post also was not directed towards you as such, just a general thing.

510

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
.

LOL there are some trainers (not gonna name anyone but pretty well known) that say beginners whould ‘focus on strength first’ and not gain anymore than 1lb a MONTH.
I think thats a great way for a beginner to get depressed from zero mass gains.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone should focus on whether or not they’ve gained “too much muscle” in a month…

seriously… if you gain more than a 1-lb of muscle a month are you really going to say, “whew boy! I better dial it back!”

and if you are a beginner and not making newbie gains than you really are not putting in enough effort and you should kick your own ass

511

Professor X and Cephalix Carnage, sorry for the misuderstanding.

512

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST

What is your opinion on splits that are 3 days a week? Like chest/shoulder/tricep + Back/bicep + legs? Is this too little in your opinion for trainers to make optimal progress on, or is it just splitting hairs?

Just curious.

YES it is too little.

I mean, honestly, look around and tell me how many people BUILT huge muscles on a three day a week schedule.

There are many who may be able to MAINTAIN the size they already built on that frequency, but that isn’t how they built it in the first place. I used to know quite a few lifters in their late 30’s and early 40’s who had scaled back their training to 3 days a week and they were able to keep what they had built. they didn’t expect to grow much from it though.

There is a reason most of the truly HUGE guys make the gym a regular part of their life. This is not an activity for people who refuse to make any sacrifice at all.[/quote]

I dont know, i’ve seen some huge guys who work 3 days a week. Look at that thread i posted a few pages ago…That guy in the forum is huge…deadlifts in the 700’s…DB rows 315 for reps…and says he cant recover well from 4 days a week. A ton of guys on that site only do 3 days a week actually from what i can tell

513

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST

What is your opinion on splits that are 3 days a week? Like chest/shoulder/tricep + Back/bicep + legs? Is this too little in your opinion for trainers to make optimal progress on, or is it just splitting hairs?

Just curious.

YES it is too little.

I mean, honestly, look around and tell me how many people BUILT huge muscles on a three day a week schedule.

There are many who may be able to MAINTAIN the size they already built on that frequency, but that isn’t how they built it in the first place. I used to know quite a few lifters in their late 30’s and early 40’s who had scaled back their training to 3 days a week and they were able to keep what they had built. they didn’t expect to grow much from it though.

There is a reason most of the truly HUGE guys make the gym a regular part of their life. This is not an activity for people who refuse to make any sacrifice at all.

I dont know, i’ve seen some huge guys who work 3 days a week. Look at that thread i posted a few pages ago…That guy in the forum is huge…deadlifts in the 700’s…DB rows 315 for reps…and says he cant recover well from 4 days a week. A ton of guys on that site only do 3 days a week actually from what i can tell
[/quote]

People like you are irritating. No one gives a shit if you can find ONE exception to absolutely everything. That doesn’t change what works for MOST.

514

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST

What is your opinion on splits that are 3 days a week? Like chest/shoulder/tricep + Back/bicep + legs? Is this too little in your opinion for trainers to make optimal progress on, or is it just splitting hairs?

Just curious.

YES it is too little.

I mean, honestly, look around and tell me how many people BUILT huge muscles on a three day a week schedule.

There are many who may be able to MAINTAIN the size they already built on that frequency, but that isn’t how they built it in the first place. I used to know quite a few lifters in their late 30’s and early 40’s who had scaled back their training to 3 days a week and they were able to keep what they had built. they didn’t expect to grow much from it though.

There is a reason most of the truly HUGE guys make the gym a regular part of their life. This is not an activity for people who refuse to make any sacrifice at all.

I dont know, i’ve seen some huge guys who work 3 days a week. Look at that thread i posted a few pages ago…That guy in the forum is huge…deadlifts in the 700’s…DB rows 315 for reps…and says he cant recover well from 4 days a week. A ton of guys on that site only do 3 days a week actually from what i can tell

[/quote]

I have also heard that eventually all serious natural lifters will go to a 3 day split.

Recovery long term is simply impossible with anything else when training max effort strength.

I have used the 3 day split in the past, and its great, although its difficult for me to take that man off days and not feel like crap, have to do cardio or play pickup or anything to stay active.

515

Besides DC(which I hate bringing into conversations honestly) a person would be hard pressed to find a training style that is massively successful that doesn’t put the person in the gym 4-6 times a week. Massively successful meaning a large number(1000s) of people have been able to put on national/pro bodybuilding level size with it.

No other hobby does this tossing away of good results for something new and different happen so often. If I want to get really good at something like playing an instrument I’m going to look at what the best 100 guitar players did to get there. If 93/100 of them played 2-3 hours a day every day for 5+ years to get to a proficiency level than you can bet I’m going to mimic that. I would be foolish to take the advice of the 7/100 over the 93 almost every time.

Why not the same for bodybuilding?

516

[quote]Westclock wrote:
I have also heard that eventually all serious natural lifters will go to a 3 day split.

Recovery long term is simply impossible with anything else.

I have used the 3 day split in the past, and its great, although its difficult for me to take that man off days and not feel like crap, have to do cardio or play pickup or anything to stay active.
[/quote]

where did you hear this from and do you really believe anything that says “all do this”? Only believe everyone or all do something if they are talking about death.

and a lot of things are considered impossible until someone does it

517

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Don’t forget to mention warm ups and pyramiding the weight up… Just to be on the safe side.
Some people seem to think that 3 sets per exercise means walking into the gym, grabbing their 6-8"RM" and doing 3 sets to failure with that very weight…

Agreed. I always pyramid up in weight. Not doing so is a great way to injure yourself once you move to much heavier weight.[/quote]

i would hope most people at least do some warm ups for the muscle. Personally i generally pyramid up on the first exercise but if the next one is using the same muscle i go into the 2-4 straight sets.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

People like you are irritating. No one gives a shit if you can find ONE exception to absolutely everything. That doesn’t change what works for MOST.[/quote]

It’s not one exception, i just used that particular guy because he happens to be huge and very strong who said himself he cant recover as well from 4 days a week. Obviously if a guy that big who has built up his recovery capacities over the years cant do as well on a 4 day split there are TONS of others who cant.

I’m not saying your 4-5 day recommendation is even bad. I’ve done 4 day splits before and liked them. I’m just saying i don’t agree with your comment that 3 days is definitely not enough

518

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Besides DC(which I hate bringing into conversations honestly) a person would be hard pressed to find a training style that is massively successful that doesn’t put the person in the gym 4-6 times a week. Massively successful meaning a large number(1000s) of people have been able to put on national/pro bodybuilding level size with it.

No other hobby does this tossing away of good results for something new and different happen so often. If I want to get really good at something like playing an instrument I’m going to look at what the best 100 guitar players did to get there. If 93/100 of them played 2-3 hours a day every day for 5+ years to get to a proficiency level than you can bet I’m going to mimic that. I would be foolish to take the advice of the 7/100 over the 93 almost every time.

Why not the same for bodybuilding? [/quote]

Oh I bet it happens with learning an instrument also. The folks who don’t put in the time and don’t learn how to play then say they just weren’t born with the “talent”

it probably happens with anything that someone has to put some time and effort into to get the results they want

519

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Besides DC(which I hate bringing into conversations honestly) a person would be hard pressed to find a training style that is massively successful that doesn’t put the person in the gym 4-6 times a week. Massively successful meaning a large number(1000s) of people have been able to put on national/pro bodybuilding level size with it.

No other hobby does this tossing away of good results for something new and different happen so often. If I want to get really good at something like playing an instrument I’m going to look at what the best 100 guitar players did to get there. If 93/100 of them played 2-3 hours a day every day for 5+ years to get to a proficiency level than you can bet I’m going to mimic that. I would be foolish to take the advice of the 7/100 over the 93 almost every time.

Why not the same for bodybuilding? [/quote]

i completely agree. My point is that i have seen many at IM.com and IA.com that are doing great on 3 days a week and thats what’s recommended to many. I never said 4-5 days doesnt work or even that it’s worse.

520

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Westclock wrote:
I have also heard that eventually all serious natural lifters will go to a 3 day split.

Recovery long term is simply impossible with anything else.

I have used the 3 day split in the past, and its great, although its difficult for me to take that man off days and not feel like crap, have to do cardio or play pickup or anything to stay active.

where did you hear this from and do you really believe anything that says “all do this”? Only believe everyone or all do something if they are talking about death.

and a lot of things are considered impossible until someone does it
[/quote]

Meant serious natural power lifters actually, left that part out

Bodybuilders dont usually place quite the strain on their joints or bodies in general.