Are Bodypart Splits Useless?

Zap_Branigan · August 20, 2008, 4:06am

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
…
Cosgrove

By the way, for body comp Poliquin uses his German Body Comp program, which is, you guessed, 3x per week full body.

Read Dr. Leistner’s “Sensible Training” article.

Read the article I posted twice already in this thread.

Get a clue.

Cosgrove thinks splits are superior for bodybuilding. He prefers TBT for athletes and average people that have time constraints.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/breaking_glass.htm

No, he thinks that for pros and top level amateurs…as I’ve been saying the whole time. As far as I know, no one of that cabliber has posted on here. Certainly people like Jehovah’s fitness, zephead and other noobs would not qualify (nothing personal…I certainly don’t either).
[/quote]

No, you are dead wrong. We had this very conversation with him right here in these forums and he said he used splits in the exact way we have been discussing. Not limited to pros and top amateurs.

If you don’t believe me ask him yourself.

shffl · August 20, 2008, 4:34am

[quote]greekdawg wrote:
Is it me or does it seem like when one of these TBT fanboys gets killed off in this thread,another one pops up instantly?

[/quote]

i think a majority of these TBT fanboys dont even belong in this forum. most of them, their mindset and goal are too different from ours. most TBT fans are probably only aiming to look like one of thsoe A&F dudes who will be happy with their “cut” body and 6-pack. they have no intention of getting as BIG and MASSIVE.

i dont know who said it but 6’1" or whatever at 205lb is not big at all. I’m only 5’9" and im almost 200lb but thats only average and puny. like X said, we are here to be ABOVE average, we dont settle for something small like that. split guys aim to get big and be the one standing out in the crowd while tbt fans only want to be one of many people in the crown.

PRCalDude · August 20, 2008, 4:39am

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
…
Cosgrove

By the way, for body comp Poliquin uses his German Body Comp program, which is, you guessed, 3x per week full body.

Read Dr. Leistner’s “Sensible Training” article.

Read the article I posted twice already in this thread.

Get a clue.

Cosgrove thinks splits are superior for bodybuilding. He prefers TBT for athletes and average people that have time constraints.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/breaking_glass.htm

No, he thinks that for pros and top level amateurs…as I’ve been saying the whole time. As far as I know, no one of that cabliber has posted on here. Certainly people like Jehovah’s fitness, zephead and other noobs would not qualify (nothing personal…I certainly don’t either).

No, you are dead wrong. We had this very conversation with him right here in these forums and he said he used splits in the exact way we have been discussing. Not limited to pros and top amateurs.

If you don’t believe me ask him yourself.

[/quote]

Unfortunately, he failed to state that he thought splits were better for bodybuilding in “TNROL.” ACtually, I guess he does have splits listed in his “hypertrophy” section, but they’re upper/lower body splits. Could you provide a link for the conversation you were talking about?

Cephalic_Carnage · August 20, 2008, 11:29am

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
…
Cosgrove

By the way, for body comp Poliquin uses his German Body Comp program, which is, you guessed, 3x per week full body.

Read Dr. Leistner’s “Sensible Training” article.

Read the article I posted twice already in this thread.

Get a clue.

Cosgrove thinks splits are superior for bodybuilding. He prefers TBT for athletes and average people that have time constraints.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/breaking_glass.htm

No, he thinks that for pros and top level amateurs…as I’ve been saying the whole time. As far as I know, no one of that cabliber has posted on here. Certainly people like Jehovah’s fitness, zephead and other noobs would not qualify (nothing personal…I certainly don’t either).

No, you are dead wrong. We had this very conversation with him right here in these forums and he said he used splits in the exact way we have been discussing. Not limited to pros and top amateurs.

If you don’t believe me ask him yourself.

Unfortunately, he failed to state that he thought splits were better for bodybuilding in “TNROL.” ACtually, I guess he does have splits listed in his “hypertrophy” section, but they’re upper/lower body splits. Could you provide a link for the conversation you were talking about? [/quote]

I wonder what mr. “I think tbt is best for natties because that’s what I read” is going to say to this…

Zap_Branigan · August 20, 2008, 11:39am

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
trextacy wrote:
…
Cosgrove

By the way, for body comp Poliquin uses his German Body Comp program, which is, you guessed, 3x per week full body.

Read Dr. Leistner’s “Sensible Training” article.

Read the article I posted twice already in this thread.

Get a clue.

Cosgrove thinks splits are superior for bodybuilding. He prefers TBT for athletes and average people that have time constraints.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/breaking_glass.htm

No, he thinks that for pros and top level amateurs…as I’ve been saying the whole time. As far as I know, no one of that cabliber has posted on here. Certainly people like Jehovah’s fitness, zephead and other noobs would not qualify (nothing personal…I certainly don’t either).

No, you are dead wrong. We had this very conversation with him right here in these forums and he said he used splits in the exact way we have been discussing. Not limited to pros and top amateurs.

If you don’t believe me ask him yourself.

Unfortunately, he failed to state that he thought splits were better for bodybuilding in “TNROL.” ACtually, I guess he does have splits listed in his “hypertrophy” section, but they’re upper/lower body splits. Could you provide a link for the conversation you were talking about? [/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_article/cosgroves_five_ahha_moments_1?id=2035727&pageNo=4

03-28-2008, 10:38 AM

[quote]Alwyn Cosgrove wrote:
Protoculture wrote:

If hypertrophy is systemic, then is there even a point to perform high frequency of same/similar movement throughout the week?

In other words do you think that 3 full body workouts per week would result in the same gains as performing 1 upper body push workout, 1 upper body pull workout, and 1 lower body workout per week if your goal was hypertrophy.

If the goal is just hypertrophy - initially - or if time is a challenge – full body will be preferable. Frequency is the biggest factor in success at that point.

However at some point I think you’re going to need a certain volume ‘threshold’ per muscle group. And it’s too hard to get that volume for every muscle in the session without training for hours. And the longer the workout - the more the intensity starts to suffer.

So then I think an upper-lower split is the way to go.

After that - I’d go to a further split. Maybe even going as far as to do two upper body workouts (push and pull, or horizontal and vertical) and two lower body workouts (quad and ham dominant) over 8-10 days.

A beginner can probably completely work and develop a body part with good intensity in 2-3 sets.

So if each set is about 30-60s long, with a 90s or so rest period - you can get a lot done (20+ sets) in a one hour session.

As you develop - you need more volume per muscle group or movement - and as you are stronger - probably more warm up sets and additional exercises. (If you are bench pressing 135 - a warm up set of 45 and one at 95 is enough. If you’re benching 315 - then you’ll need a few more warm up sets - all of which takes time).

It just becomes a time issue at that point so some type of a split is preferable unless you have all day to train!

Also - as you progress - your intensity per exercise goes up. Heavier loading requires longer rests between sets – so you can’t get it all done in one session.

Besides - it’s pretty hard for an advanced lifter to do much of anything after heavy squats - let alone try to do heavy back work or chest work – so it makes sense to split up the routine at that point so that a) you are fresh and b)you can get the workout done in a reasonable time frame.

–
AC[/quote]

BigE05 · August 20, 2008, 12:46pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
03-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Alwyn Cosgrove wrote:
Protoculture wrote:

If hypertrophy is systemic, then is there even a point to perform high frequency of same/similar movement throughout the week?

In other words do you think that 3 full body workouts per week would result in the same gains as performing 1 upper body push workout, 1 upper body pull workout, and 1 lower body workout per week if your goal was hypertrophy.

If the goal is just hypertrophy - initially - or if time is a challenge – full body will be preferable. Frequency is the biggest factor in success at that point.

However at some point I think you’re going to need a certain volume ‘threshold’ per muscle group. And it’s too hard to get that volume for every muscle in the session without training for hours. And the longer the workout - the more the intensity starts to suffer.

So then I think an upper-lower split is the way to go.

After that - I’d go to a further split. Maybe even going as far as to do two upper body workouts (push and pull, or horizontal and vertical) and two lower body workouts (quad and ham dominant) over 8-10 days.

A beginner can probably completely work and develop a body part with good intensity in 2-3 sets.

So if each set is about 30-60s long, with a 90s or so rest period - you can get a lot done (20+ sets) in a one hour session.

As you develop - you need more volume per muscle group or movement - and as you are stronger - probably more warm up sets and additional exercises. (If you are bench pressing 135 - a warm up set of 45 and one at 95 is enough. If you’re benching 315 - then you’ll need a few more warm up sets - all of which takes time).

It just becomes a time issue at that point so some type of a split is preferable unless you have all day to train!

Also - as you progress - your intensity per exercise goes up. Heavier loading requires longer rests between sets – so you can’t get it all done in one session.

Besides - it’s pretty hard for an advanced lifter to do much of anything after heavy squats - let alone try to do heavy back work or chest work – so it makes sense to split up the routine at that point so that a) you are fresh and b)you can get the workout done in a reasonable time frame.

–
AC
[/quote]

thanks for posting this! This should end this thread…

Cephalic_Carnage · August 20, 2008, 12:52pm

[quote]BigE05 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
03-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Alwyn Cosgrove wrote:
Protoculture wrote:

If hypertrophy is systemic, then is there even a point to perform high frequency of same/similar movement throughout the week?

In other words do you think that 3 full body workouts per week would result in the same gains as performing 1 upper body push workout, 1 upper body pull workout, and 1 lower body workout per week if your goal was hypertrophy.

If the goal is just hypertrophy - initially - or if time is a challenge – full body will be preferable. Frequency is the biggest factor in success at that point.

However at some point I think you’re going to need a certain volume ‘threshold’ per muscle group. And it’s too hard to get that volume for every muscle in the session without training for hours. And the longer the workout - the more the intensity starts to suffer.

So then I think an upper-lower split is the way to go.

After that - I’d go to a further split. Maybe even going as far as to do two upper body workouts (push and pull, or horizontal and vertical) and two lower body workouts (quad and ham dominant) over 8-10 days.

A beginner can probably completely work and develop a body part with good intensity in 2-3 sets.

So if each set is about 30-60s long, with a 90s or so rest period - you can get a lot done (20+ sets) in a one hour session.

As you develop - you need more volume per muscle group or movement - and as you are stronger - probably more warm up sets and additional exercises. (If you are bench pressing 135 - a warm up set of 45 and one at 95 is enough. If you’re benching 315 - then you’ll need a few more warm up sets - all of which takes time).

It just becomes a time issue at that point so some type of a split is preferable unless you have all day to train!

Also - as you progress - your intensity per exercise goes up. Heavier loading requires longer rests between sets – so you can’t get it all done in one session.

Besides - it’s pretty hard for an advanced lifter to do much of anything after heavy squats - let alone try to do heavy back work or chest work – so it makes sense to split up the routine at that point so that a) you are fresh and b)you can get the workout done in a reasonable time frame.

–
AC

thanks for posting this! This should end this thread…

[/quote]

Sadly, I doubt it…

OctoberGirl · August 20, 2008, 3:37pm

[quote]BigE05 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
03-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Alwyn Cosgrove wrote:
Protoculture wrote:

If hypertrophy is systemic, then is there even a point to perform high frequency of same/similar movement throughout the week?

In other words do you think that 3 full body workouts per week would result in the same gains as performing 1 upper body push workout, 1 upper body pull workout, and 1 lower body workout per week if your goal was hypertrophy.

If the goal is just hypertrophy - initially - or if time is a challenge – full body will be preferable. Frequency is the biggest factor in success at that point.

However at some point I think you’re going to need a certain volume ‘threshold’ per muscle group. And it’s too hard to get that volume for every muscle in the session without training for hours. And the longer the workout - the more the intensity starts to suffer.

So then I think an upper-lower split is the way to go.

After that - I’d go to a further split. Maybe even going as far as to do two upper body workouts (push and pull, or horizontal and vertical) and two lower body workouts (quad and ham dominant) over 8-10 days.

A beginner can probably completely work and develop a body part with good intensity in 2-3 sets.

So if each set is about 30-60s long, with a 90s or so rest period - you can get a lot done (20+ sets) in a one hour session.

As you develop - you need more volume per muscle group or movement - and as you are stronger - probably more warm up sets and additional exercises. (If you are bench pressing 135 - a warm up set of 45 and one at 95 is enough. If you’re benching 315 - then you’ll need a few more warm up sets - all of which takes time).

It just becomes a time issue at that point so some type of a split is preferable unless you have all day to train!

Also - as you progress - your intensity per exercise goes up. Heavier loading requires longer rests between sets – so you can’t get it all done in one session.

Besides - it’s pretty hard for an advanced lifter to do much of anything after heavy squats - let alone try to do heavy back work or chest work – so it makes sense to split up the routine at that point so that a) you are fresh and b)you can get the workout done in a reasonable time frame.

–
AC

thanks for posting this! This should end this thread…
[/quote]

The issue of recovery and intensity were something that I had PMed Prof X about. It doesn’t make common sense that you can get the same intensity doing TBT as you can doing splits. As mentioned by Alwyn, how can you kill your legs and then have enough reserved in the tank to do an intense and productive workout on your upper body, those muscles would have been putting in effort with yoru legs.

also splits allow for longer recovery times for your muscles to grow.

but I can see only if time were the issue where you would do TBT. Or if you were just wanting to stay as you are, perhaps the TBT person just wants to maintain where they are at with little impact on their schedule.

Zap_Branigan · August 20, 2008, 3:56pm

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
…

but I can see only if time were the issue where you would do TBT. Or if you were just wanting to stay as you are, perhaps the TBT person just wants to maintain where they are at with little impact on their schedule.

[/quote]

Also very good for athletes, especially in season, people trying to lose weight etc.

From a pure muscle building stand point I think splits are usually better.

Most people don’t walk into the gym with the intention of building muscle, although they should.

OctoberGirl · August 20, 2008, 4:02pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
…

but I can see only if time were the issue where you would do TBT. Or if you were just wanting to stay as you are, perhaps the TBT person just wants to maintain where they are at with little impact on their schedule.

Also very good for athletes, especially in season, people trying to lose weight etc.

From a pure muscle building stand point I think splits are usually better.

Most people don’t walk into the gym with the intention of building muscle, although they should.[/quote]

Good point.

I can see it also being a starting point for beginners who don’t even know what body parts they need to work yet.

And for some folks you need to feel as if you “did it all”, but as you mentioned, if you want to build muscle you need the more intense focus of splits to keep intensity and recovery at a maximum level.

Professor_X · August 20, 2008, 4:03pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
…

but I can see only if time were the issue where you would do TBT. Or if you were just wanting to stay as you are, perhaps the TBT person just wants to maintain where they are at with little impact on their schedule.

Also very good for athletes, especially in season, people trying to lose weight etc.

From a pure muscle building stand point I think splits are usually better.

Most people don’t walk into the gym with the intention of building muscle, although they should.[/quote]

Most people don’t have the drive or motivation to make bodybuilding a worthwhile activity.

That would be fine…if they didn’t keep acting like that mentality equaled “bodybuilding” as they try to tell us that bodybuilders are doing it wrong and we should all train like people who don’t really want to get big and think eating every 3 hours is too much of a hassle.

forbes · August 20, 2008, 4:10pm

so then, in your opinion (and what has worked best for the THOUSANDS of bodybuilders you have claimed), whats the average frequency a person should work a body part (once a week, twice a week)?

Professor_X · August 20, 2008, 4:14pm

[quote]forbes wrote:
so then, in your opinion (and what has worked best for the THOUSANDS of bodybuilders you have claimed), whats the average frequency a person should work a body part (once a week, twice a week)?[/quote]

Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST training muscle groups that need more attention twice a week or as the schedule permits.

Everything else is variable and based on the individual.

Cephalic_Carnage · August 20, 2008, 4:24pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
forbes wrote:
so then, in your opinion (and what has worked best for the THOUSANDS of bodybuilders you have claimed), whats the average frequency a person should work a body part (once a week, twice a week)?

Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST training muscle groups that need more attention twice a week or as the schedule permits.

Everything else is variable and based on the individual.[/quote]

I agree here and want to add a little individual input:

I started out training everything once a week except for triceps (twice, they were lagging quite a bit back then), my calves were genetically fine so I didn’t train them at all… Walking up and down stairs and such actually did the trick ;).

Nowadays, I like the frequency to be just a little higher than once a week, so I do the 2way split version of DC which is trained over 3 days a week.
You basically hit a bodypart twice during week one, then once the second week, then repeat.

Both approaches have worked very well for me, but you need to know your body VERY well for DC to work properly…

Alquemist · August 20, 2008, 4:29pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST [/quote]

What is your opinion on splits that are 3 days a week? Like chest/shoulder/tricep + Back/bicep + legs? Is this too little in your opinion for trainers to make optimal progress on, or is it just splitting hairs?

Just curious.

Professor_X · August 20, 2008, 4:39pm

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Basically speaking, in the gym 4-5 days a week AT LEAST

What is your opinion on splits that are 3 days a week? Like chest/shoulder/tricep + Back/bicep + legs? Is this too little in your opinion for trainers to make optimal progress on, or is it just splitting hairs?

Just curious.[/quote]

YES it is too little.

I mean, honestly, look around and tell me how many people BUILT huge muscles on a three day a week schedule.

There are many who may be able to MAINTAIN the size they already built on that frequency, but that isn’t how they built it in the first place. I used to know quite a few lifters in their late 30’s and early 40’s who had scaled back their training to 3 days a week and they were able to keep what they had built. they didn’t expect to grow much from it though.

There is a reason most of the truly HUGE guys make the gym a regular part of their life. This is not an activity for people who refuse to make any sacrifice at all.

Professor_X · August 20, 2008, 4:42pm

Also, just to make it clear, when I write “HUGE”, I am NOT referring to some person who looks like they MAY lift regularly. I am talking about arms close to 20" or more and a need for shirts with more than one “X” in the size label.

Alquemist · August 20, 2008, 4:52pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also, just to make it clear, when I write “HUGE”, I am NOT referring to some person who looks like they MAY lift regularly. I am talking about arms close to 20" or more and a need for shirts with more than one “X” in the size label. [/quote]

Of course.

Btw,

Sometimes when I see 4 or 5 day splits on websites or whatever there are like 4-5 exercises per boy part, which is obviously a lot harder to recover from than say 2-3 per body part.

I think some people may resort to 3 day splits because they may have too many exercises and not focussing on the quality and intensity. What is your take on this? Do you think doing more than 2-3 exercises per body part (not lagging body parts tho) is necessary or is it just cutting into recovery?

I know when I first did a 4 day split I got overtrained, but when I cut back a bit on the overall number of exercises (as well as increasing food intake) it became much easier to progress.

(I know this thread isn’t exactly just about you but while we are on the topic just thought I would ask).

Professor_X · August 20, 2008, 4:57pm

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Also, just to make it clear, when I write “HUGE”, I am NOT referring to some person who looks like they MAY lift regularly. I am talking about arms close to 20" or more and a need for shirts with more than one “X” in the size label.

Of course.

Btw,

Sometimes when I see 4 or 5 day splits on websites or whatever there are like 4-5 exercises per boy part, which is obviously a lot harder to recover from than say 2-3 per body part.

I think some people may resort to 3 day splits because they may have too many exercises and not focussing on the quality and intensity. What is your take on this? Do you think doing more than 2-3 exercises per body part (not lagging body parts tho) is necessary or is it just cutting into recovery?

I know when I first did a 4 day split I got overtrained, but when I cut back a bit on the overall number of exercises (as well as increasing food intake) it became much easier to progress.

(I know this thread isn’t exactly just about you but while we are on the topic just thought I would ask).[/quote]

2-3 exercises per body part is the classic way to set up a split schedule.

2-3 exercises per body part doing around 3 sets per exercise.

This is of course variable and based on where you are personally in your training life.

Also, I am betting that most of you who claim “overtraining” are also the same ones who think how much you eat should be extremely restrictive since you think everyone needs to maintain 10% body fat from start to finish.

Food is your fuel. If you don’t have enough of it, how could you expect to train harder? It won’t happen. When the goal is size, if the scale isn’t moving at all, you are not doing it right in terms of anabolism.

Alquemist · August 20, 2008, 5:02pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Also, just to make it clear, when I write “HUGE”, I am NOT referring to some person who looks like they MAY lift regularly. I am talking about arms close to 20" or more and a need for shirts with more than one “X” in the size label.