Are Bodypart Splits Useless?

Training Bodybuilding
421

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
…
And just to toss my two cents on the general total body vs. bodypart training idea, I don’t know if time efficiency has been brought up yet, but if someone comes to me and can only do strength training twice each week (a common situation for average folks trying to become above-average), total body sessions will be more productive until, or unless, more time becomes available at which point, some type of non-full-body split would yield better results.[/quote]

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

422

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
By that logic you have to throw everyone out of your splits list who ever did TBT.

There it’s not like strongmen got big and strong doing one thing and then gave it up to do training they couldn’t make gains with, that makes no sense. the guys doing TBT still get bigger and stronger every year. If I could get on a site and check bios I could make that list a lot longer. As for training history of every workout everyone has ever done, I can’t say. I just know what they all do now and what seems to work for them.
[/quote]

When you train for a Strongman contest, you train with the implements. You HAVE TO. And the implements are by thier nature, full-body movements so the specific work they do come contest time reflects that.

Ignoring the question of what got them big enough and strong enough to start to compete (which you’ve done quite well) in the first place, most guys I know STILL do a push/pull split.

Shit, there is/was a very popular trend to adapt Westside principals to strongman training. Is THAT not a split?

Let’s not delude ourselves ionto believing that these guys got so big and strong by doing presses, squats, deads, rows, cleans and snatches on the same day for much if any of thier training career.

423

“If you can prove that there is a single massed substance that disobeys gravity, then gravity isn’t true”

Bullshit. You’ve just demonstrated that there may be a force which exerts an equal but opposite force which negates the effects of gravity.

So the galaxies moving apart means theres no gravity? No. Dark matter is accepted widly as responsible for that.

A general rule is still a general rule as long as the numbers in its favour outweigh those against.

Splits rule. So does dark matter.

424

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go. [/quote]

IMO
legs-push-pull.

425

[quote]Professor X wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
If there is an exception to the rule then it is a suggestion, not a rule. If you can prove that there is a single massed substance that disobeys gravity, then gravity isn’t true, that�??s why proofs in science and even simple math are so hard. My point is that there are people out there that TBT works very well for and to blindly say everyone should switch to splits is not true. Like saying everyone should take creatine when there are people that it does absolutely nothing for.

Science isn’t about “rules”. It is about observing and recording facts about our surroundings and ourselves in order to reach a deeper truth. In recording those facts, what happens to the majority becomes the “standard” or the norm. There will no doubt be biological entities that exist outside of the norm, but science does not ignore what happens to the majority.

Meanwhile, you claim to work in ‘science’ yet don’t seem to know this.

That means if we observe what happens to most people, we can say that it makes sense to follow what MOST have seen success with as that will be most likely to produce success in the individual as well.

What you all are doing is NOT science. It is sour grapes.

[/quote]

No, that’s philosophy like what guys like Plato did. Science became science with the advent of things like the scientific method that moved beyond simple observation.

I have never once said that anyone should avoid or not try splits. Nor have I ever said they were only for beginners or advanced lifters or anything in between. Nor have I said that they aren�??t effective for so many people. Just that it�??s not a law. That certain people have tremendous results with TBT. I even do a kind of split myself. Don�??t put words in my mouth; I have not once said anything bad about splits. (other than the kind you need to be flexible for)

426

[quote]brancron wrote:
DoubleDuce…more like DoubleDouche.

[/quote]

Nice Roadhouse reference dude! ; )

427

[quote]Neebone wrote:
“If you can prove that there is a single massed substance that disobeys gravity, then gravity isn’t true”

Bullshit. You’ve just demonstrated that there may be a force which exerts an equal but opposite force which negates the effects of gravity.

So the galaxies moving apart means theres no gravity? No. Dark matter is accepted widly as responsible for that.

A general rule is still a general rule as long as the numbers in its favour outweigh those against.

Splits rule. So does dark matter.[/quote]

HAH! Actually you are right, quantum physics and things like string theory actually disprove classical Newtonian gravity. So, maybe that wasn’t the best example. But in some specific cases the flaws in classical gravity are significant enough to produce measurably different results. Sorry, that should have gone in the nerd forum, but that�??s a subject I really like.

428

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

No, that’s philosophy like what guys like Plato did. Science became science with the advent of things like the scientific method that moved beyond simple observation.[/quote]

Science INVOLVES philosophy. Without philosophy, one could argue there would be no true standard for acquiring data. The scientific method is a way to test, observe and record info about something around us.

Tremendous? Please. No one here is interested in one or two people who MAY have gotten bigger by using TBT at some point in their career…especially if you ignore that they did not train that way to build most of their size and strength to start with.

This is about what works BEST for those who actually want to stand out in a crowd.

429

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.[/quote]

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.

430

[quote]Professor X wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:

No, that’s philosophy like what guys like Plato did. Science became science with the advent of things like the scientific method that moved beyond simple observation.

Science INVOLVES philosophy. Without philosophy, one could argue there would be no true standard for acquiring data. The scientific method is a way to test, observe and record info about something around us.

I have never once said that anyone should avoid or not try splits. Nor have I ever said they were only for beginners or advanced lifters or anything in between. Nor have I said that they aren�??t effective for so many people. Just that it�??s not a law. That certain people have tremendous results with TBT. I even do a kind of split myself. Don�??t put words in my mouth; I have not once said anything bad about splits. (other than the kind you need to be flexible for)

Tremendous? Please. No one here is interested in one or two people who MAY have gotten bigger by using TBT at some point in their career…especially if you ignore that they did not train that way to build most of their size and strength to start with.

This is about what works BEST for those who actually want to stand out in a crowd. [/quote]

Earlier you were asking for even one person who did it.

431

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Earlier you were asking for even one person who did it. [/quote]

Yes, one person who went from skinny to huge and can now compete in a heavy weight (or super-heavy weight) class in bodybuilding.

Do you have one?

Mind you, the real issue here is not just finding ONE, it was to point out that I can make you a very long list of those who saw success with splits while most of you seem to only be able to find one or two people who used TBT.

432

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.[/quote]

My recovery has been shit lately, probably due to terrible sleep becuase of apnea. I used to do upper/lower, but I feel I can get more volume this way. I usually do 1-2 heavy movements ME style and 1-3 movements in the 8-12 rep range. I think, especially at the point where I am in my training, this will give me the best results. I need strength and size to fill out my potential in my sport.

433

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I don’t believe that you are small, new, or weak, just an ass…[/quote]+1 STOP here (1st warning next time it’s a 5 pt deduction)[quote] I just don’t get why so many people bow and kiss your ass. Being big is no reason for treating people like infants.[/quote] Pussy… Just seems jealous and ghey, in the middle of a flame war don’t explain yourself.

17 pages of this? WOW

Points

DD 1
ProfX 432156789

434

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.

My recovery has been shit lately, probably due to terrible sleep becuase of apnea. I used to do upper/lower, but I feel I can get more volume this way. I usually do 1-2 heavy movements ME style and 1-3 movements in the 8-12 rep range. I think, especially at the point where I am in my training, this will give me the best results. I need strength and size to fill out my potential in my sport.[/quote]

Dude you get apnea at that bodyweight and age?
That’s not something to fuck with, get yourself to a doc asap…

Not that I want to order you around or anything, it’s just rather worrisome.

435

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.

My recovery has been shit lately, probably due to terrible sleep becuase of apnea. I used to do upper/lower, but I feel I can get more volume this way. I usually do 1-2 heavy movements ME style and 1-3 movements in the 8-12 rep range. I think, especially at the point where I am in my training, this will give me the best results. I need strength and size to fill out my potential in my sport.

Dude you get apnea at that bodyweight and age?
That’s not something to fuck with, get yourself to a doc asap…

Not that I want to order you around or anything, it’s just rather worrisome.[/quote]

I agree. If he weighed 100lbs more than that, then I could say it was based on his body weight. But at 190lbs, that is very abnormal.

436

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.

My recovery has been shit lately, probably due to terrible sleep becuase of apnea. I used to do upper/lower, but I feel I can get more volume this way. I usually do 1-2 heavy movements ME style and 1-3 movements in the 8-12 rep range. I think, especially at the point where I am in my training, this will give me the best results. I need strength and size to fill out my potential in my sport.

Dude you get apnea at that bodyweight and age?
That’s not something to fuck with, get yourself to a doc asap…

Not that I want to order you around or anything, it’s just rather worrisome.[/quote]

genetic, my grandpa has it too. I’ve been talking to my parents about it. I rmember the first time I woke up choking I thought I was going to die. If I prop my head up when I sleep it’s not even close to as bad as laying down flat. But I have head forward posture form that now. I’m talking to the doc about it next time I go.

437

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
COME ON!!! We need a list of HUGE bodybuilders who used TBT to build the majority of their size. Can we start with just ONE name?

IF YOU REALLY, REALLY THINK THAT THE MASS MONSTERS AND HEAVYWEIGHTS SIZE WAS BUILT “PRIMARILY” BECAUSE THE TRAINED INTENSLY WITH SPLITS, THEN YOU ARE NAIVE.

Professor- listen to me. I’m being dead serious. I get the impression that you think you are going to blast the shit out of your muscles, eat until your stomach is distended.

Finish up your 12 year “bulk” and that someday, somehow, you will have the physique like one of the “HUGE” (as you say) professional IFBB heavyweight bodybuilders WITHOUT GETTING ON GEAR OF SOME SORT. Unless you have Vic Richards’ genetics (he had help too) it will not happen.

If it hasn’t happened already, it won’t happen.

How old are you now?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here. People are actually, citing every roided up mass monster in support of their position without acknowledging that roids play a part in about 40-50 lbs (minimum) of these guys lbm.

When you take that away, they compare favorably to the so-called golden age guys who trained full body and found that frequency hedged recovery and allowed more growth. It’s a wash! But, because splits are “particularly effective” when recovery isn’t an issue, the presence of roids pushes these guys in the direction of splits for max gains.

This isn’t hard people.[/quote]

Dude, seriously GTFO here. You have no idea what you speak of. Since the Olympia started, practically every single winner and top finisher has used splits. Vince Gironda has trained more Olympia champions (or counseled them) during the 70s and 80s then anyone else and they all did splits!

You make no sense whatsoever. if TBT was so much more effective for natural trainess as you say, it would be even more effective on juice. So let me get this straight, splits aren’t effective for a nuaturall trainee, but suddenly become effective for someone that is juiced?

So I guess all the strength coaches, trainers, etc. who are prescribing splits to their clients successfully like Thibs, Poliquin, Staley, etc. are somehow doing it wrong? But your God: Waterbury is right?

438

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.

My recovery has been shit lately, probably due to terrible sleep becuase of apnea. I used to do upper/lower, but I feel I can get more volume this way. I usually do 1-2 heavy movements ME style and 1-3 movements in the 8-12 rep range. I think, especially at the point where I am in my training, this will give me the best results. I need strength and size to fill out my potential in my sport.

Dude you get apnea at that bodyweight and age?
That’s not something to fuck with, get yourself to a doc asap…

Not that I want to order you around or anything, it’s just rather worrisome.

genetic, my grandpa has it too. I’ve been talking to my parents about it. I rmember the first time I woke up choking I thought I was going to die. If I prop my head up when I sleep it’s not even close to as bad as laying down flat. But I have head forward posture form that now. I’m talking to the doc about it next time I go.[/quote]

I see a mouth appliance or a respirator in your future. You may be one person who should take his gains in body weight very seriously.

This is fairly common for bigger guys (like NFL linemen) because of the weight on their neck from their musculature and overall body mass. It should also not be taken lightly.

439

[quote]Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
COME ON!!! We need a list of HUGE bodybuilders who used TBT to build the majority of their size. Can we start with just ONE name?

IF YOU REALLY, REALLY THINK THAT THE MASS MONSTERS AND HEAVYWEIGHTS SIZE WAS BUILT “PRIMARILY” BECAUSE THE TRAINED INTENSLY WITH SPLITS, THEN YOU ARE NAIVE.

Professor- listen to me. I’m being dead serious. I get the impression that you think you are going to blast the shit out of your muscles, eat until your stomach is distended.

Finish up your 12 year “bulk” and that someday, somehow, you will have the physique like one of the “HUGE” (as you say) professional IFBB heavyweight bodybuilders WITHOUT GETTING ON GEAR OF SOME SORT. Unless you have Vic Richards’ genetics (he had help too) it will not happen.

If it hasn’t happened already, it won’t happen.

How old are you now?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here. People are actually, citing every roided up mass monster in support of their position without acknowledging that roids play a part in about 40-50 lbs (minimum) of these guys lbm.

When you take that away, they compare favorably to the so-called golden age guys who trained full body and found that frequency hedged recovery and allowed more growth. It’s a wash! But, because splits are “particularly effective” when recovery isn’t an issue, the presence of roids pushes these guys in the direction of splits for max gains.

This isn’t hard people.

X- I’m still waiting on a response to this. You continue to repeat yourself over and over and not engaging on the substance.

What is there to respond to? Pointing out one or two names does not erase the THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE who got big using splits in their training. Not only that, but why the fuck do you believe that golden age bodybuilders were all natural?

I am 31 years old. I am also not new to this and most would probably call me “advanced” by looking at me. Meanwhile, I am betting you, on the other hand, are not that developed yet are trying to tell me that I don’t have a solid take on the way things work? What is wrong with you?[/quote]

I’m asking you to respond to my question about why you don’t look anything like these IFBB heavyweights that you train like? Why? Your genetics seem decent, you continuously shove food down your mouth and you train intensly on every little muscle in your body (upper and lower pecs included). You are 31. You have been at it a long while. By all accounts you are probably over 12% BF and have never been on stage. If you stay natural (assuming you always have been) then your T is only going to go lower from here on out.

Congrats on weighing a bunch, but based on your frame (I’ve seen your pics before…fully clothed except for the guns if I recall correctly) you would’ve “naturally” weighed in the 220-230 range anyways. Where to now? If you actually got in contest shape for once you probably wouldn’t be more than 220-230? Please correct me if I’m wrong. Thibs says he is around 195 in contest shape and is as much as 230-ish at other times so I’m assuming you would need to drop about 45 lbs to be stage ready.

AAS?

I’m dead serious. The fact is that pro bodybuilders do not “prove” that splits work best…that is all about drugs and genetics AT THAT LEVEL (PLEASE READ THAT PART CAREFULLY…THIS ISN’T AN EXCUSE, BUT A RECOGNITION THAT THAT LEVEL OF DEVELOPMENT IS NOT NATURAL). If we are simply talking about building muscle and strength naturally then splits do not have any advantage over full body until the individual gets SO strong that they can’t handle doing it all at once. This applies to a select few (which you are one).

If comparisons are all that matter to you, then consider that all of the golden age bodybuilders you disrespect would kick your ass on stage and would’ve done it at age 24…they would spot you 7 additional years and trained full body and you train a split. What does that prove?

You are the one that makes everything personal on here, talks down to people and has zero patience. If you have nothing else to learn, and people who know less irritate you, then why the fuck do you have 23,000 posts?

Btw, i already said in another post that I’m 6’2" about 205 right now, down about 20 lbs after a bulk. I will get down another 5 lbs, then add mass again and hope to end up somewhere around 225, at which point strength-based goals will probably take over since I don’t see any point in building mass beyond that point as I am not a professional. I was heavier/stronger in college and grad school, but the life of a professional is not always conducive to maximum gains all the time. Of course, since I’m merely working towards my goal (as opposed to already being there) and have no desire to look like a pro, my opinion is completely worthless to you.

440

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I think most everyone is on board with the timing thing. If you can only train a couple times a week hitting the full body is the way to go.

IMO
legs-push-pull.

I have tried a leg day and a push pull day and didn’t like it when I was only hitting the gym twice a week. I much preferred total body. For three days a week I like a legs, push pull and a total body. Of course neither of these is optimum for me. I need the volume to grow so various splits at 4 or 5 days is best for me.

My recovery has been shit lately, probably due to terrible sleep becuase of apnea. I used to do upper/lower, but I feel I can get more volume this way. I usually do 1-2 heavy movements ME style and 1-3 movements in the 8-12 rep range. I think, especially at the point where I am in my training, this will give me the best results. I need strength and size to fill out my potential in my sport.

Dude you get apnea at that bodyweight and age?
That’s not something to fuck with, get yourself to a doc asap…

Not that I want to order you around or anything, it’s just rather worrisome.

genetic, my grandpa has it too. I’ve been talking to my parents about it. I rmember the first time I woke up choking I thought I was going to die. If I prop my head up when I sleep it’s not even close to as bad as laying down flat. But I have head forward posture form that now. I’m talking to the doc about it next time I go.[/quote]

This isn’t going to get any better as you gain weight, it’ll likely get much worse… Dunno what kind of therapies there are, but you may have to get one of those CPAP things if you can’t get rid of your apnea…

The prof is the medicine man here, not me, so I’ll shut up about this now.