If punching is alot about speed, then why is punching power the last thing to go as a fighter ages? I was watching an old Duran fight when he was 42 and fat and he just clobbered a guy.
“Speed” is just a oversimplification in that case.
The amount of distance covered is actually very short. Compare that to the kind of “top running speed” of sprinters where age is a lot more unmerciful and you see pretty quick that ‘speed’ is an ambiguous term.
However, your reflexes definitely slow, which is an important component (or rather two or three components) of the whole “speedpart” of powerpunching.
Note also, the endurance to throw more high caliber bombs one after another drops because most stamina related attributes decrease with age A LOT more rapidly then strength. Decreasing stamina and regeneration in turn, lead to less productive workouts.
Aging sucks.
[quote]drewh wrote:
If punching is alot about speed, then why is punching power the last thing to go as a fighter ages? I was watching an old Duran fight when he was 42 and fat and he just clobbered a guy.[/quote]
Good point, George Foreman could hit like a mack truck well into his 40’s.
Speed doesn’t have as much to do with it as you’d think. If that was the case guys like Pernell Whitaker or Willie Pep woulda been baby Tyson’s. Someone mentioned Foreman who almost pushed his punches and he was just flattening dudes. There’s obvioulsy a lot you can do to enhance your power, practice, perfecting technique, strengthening the right areas, etc… But honestly I think KO power is something you come out the box with. You either have it or you don’t.
Punching power isn’t really about speed. There are “slow” fighters like Micky Ward that have plenty of power, and there’s fast handed fighters like Pitter Patter Paulie Malignaggi that can’t break an egg.
I think that because power comes from your mechanics and how much of your bodyweight you’re turning into the punch, a powerful hitter can keep that power for as long as he’s alive. How often do you hear of guys trying to rob 70 year old former boxers who end up knocking them out? It happens.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Speed doesn’t have as much to do with it as you’d think. If that was the case guys like Pernell Whitaker or Willie Pep woulda been baby Tyson’s. Someone mentioned Foreman who almost pushed his punches and he was just flattening dudes. There’s obvioulsy a lot you can do to enhance your power, practice, perfecting technique, strengthening the right areas, etc… But honestly I think KO power is something you come out the box with. You either have it or you don’t.[/quote]
Yup.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
Speed doesn’t have as much to do with it as you’d think. If that was the case guys like Pernell Whitaker or Willie Pep woulda been baby Tyson’s. Someone mentioned Foreman who almost pushed his punches and he was just flattening dudes. There’s obvioulsy a lot you can do to enhance your power, practice, perfecting technique, strengthening the right areas, etc… But honestly I think KO power is something you come out the box with. You either have it or you don’t.
Yup.[/quote]
Was watching a retrospective on Pep with Bert Sugar and Teddy Atlas when they were talking about his hand speed and Atlas chimed in with “Yeah, he was fast as lightening but he couldn’t crack an egg.” I thought that was fucking hysterical.
im a slow hitter but when i hit someone normmaly assuming im sober its lights out
And that’s what i call GRAVEDIGGER
[quote]drewh wrote:
If punching is alot about speed, then why is punching power the last thing to go as a fighter ages? I was watching an old Duran fight when he was 42 and fat and he just clobbered a guy.[/quote]
Speed is just one component of kinetic force (punching power in this case). Mass also plays a big role, which is one reason why guys like Foreman could still throw bombs well into his 40’s.
Then there’s accuracy; doesn’t matter how fast you are or how much mass is behind your punch, if you land it on the point of their elbow, or the top of their head, chances are you aren’t going to KO them. On the other hand, if you land the punch right on the right spot, it doesn’t take huge amounts of power to have an effect.
And let’s not forget about timing. Many of the fighters who continue to be competitive late into their careers aren’t winning because they’re faster or stronger than their opponents, they win because they’ve mastered timing and other strategical skills. For instance, if I can time my punches so that you run into them, I don’t have to hit as hard to KO you. An analogy would be the difference between a car moving 40 mph hitting a parked car vs a car moving 40 mph hitting a car moving 40 mph in the opposite direction head on. The top speed either car was moving was the same in both situations, but the collision is going to be twice as much in the second situation.
That said, speed usually helps in being able to hit the target without missing or getting hit, is a great asset/advantage to have, and is (no matter what anyone wants to say) still a factor in punching power (you simply cannot deny the laws of physics) so should be cultivated to the best of the individual’s ability.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
If punching is alot about speed, then why is punching power the last thing to go as a fighter ages? I was watching an old Duran fight when he was 42 and fat and he just clobbered a guy.[/quote]
Speed is just one component of kinetic force (punching power in this case). Mass also plays a big role, which is one reason why guys like Foreman could still throw bombs well into his 40’s.
Then there’s accuracy; doesn’t matter how fast you are or how much mass is behind your punch, if you land it on the point of their elbow, or the top of their head, chances are you aren’t going to KO them. On the other hand, if you land the punch right on the right spot, it doesn’t take huge amounts of power to have an effect.
And let’s not forget about timing. Many of the fighters who continue to be competitive late into their careers aren’t winning because they’re faster or stronger than their opponents, they win because they’ve mastered timing and other strategical skills. For instance, if I can time my punches so that you run into them, I don’t have to hit as hard to KO you. An analogy would be the difference between a car moving 40 mph hitting a parked car vs a car moving 40 mph hitting a car moving 40 mph in the opposite direction head on. The top speed either car was moving was the same in both situations, but the collision is going to be twice as much in the second situation.
That said, speed usually helps in being able to hit the target without missing or getting hit, is a great asset/advantage to have, and is (no matter what anyone wants to say) still a factor in punching power (you simply cannot deny the laws of physics) so should be cultivated to the best of the individual’s ability.[/quote]
Took the word out of my mouth…[yeah, as if i could write in such a good and technical fashion]
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.
It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through.
Ah yeah all these old guys are pretty good at following through :).
[quote]Webbykun wrote:
Ah yeah all these old guys are pretty good at following through :).[/quote]
Remember sarcasm doesn’t work well over the internet. If you don’t understand I can explain it better for you. If you understand how the neuro muscular system works it is a lot easier to understand why certain things work and others don’t.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.
It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]
So let me get this right…you say speed has little effect on punching power…and if making contact loads up motor units to keep the movement going…AND following through is important…wouldn’t hitting the heavy bag be a better benefit than shadowboxing IF(keyword) the goal is to work on punching power???
Are you basically just saying that working on technique(shadowboxing,etc) should be priority before worrying about power on a heavy bag?? If so,I agree completely.
[quote]drewh wrote:
If punching is alot about speed, then why is punching power the last thing to go as a fighter ages? I was watching an old Duran fight when he was 42 and fat and he just clobbered a guy.[/quote]
I think punching is less about speed, and more about technique. Punches start from the ball of your foot, and most of the power is generated in the knees and hips. “hand speed”, so to speak…is something different, IMO. I mean, you can still hit hard throwing a punch with your arms, but if you put your lower body into it you’re obviously going to get more power and better balance than “flailing” punches.
so, I think that years of refining technique and knowing when and where to strike play a part in the older fighters still having it where it counts.
This is an old thread WTF? As I’ve watched more and more fights the less I care some people like Prince Naseem punch fast, some like a Marciano put a lot of force in it, some are arm punchers, some punch for accuracy. I don’t even care anymore I don’t think anyone has a clear answer to this question.
[quote]drewh wrote:
This is an old thread WTF? As I’ve watched more and more fights the less I care some people like Prince Naseem punch fast, some like a Marciano put a lot of force in it, some are arm punchers, some punch for accuracy. I don’t even care anymore I don’t think anyone has a clear answer to this question.[/quote]
Your question was answered…just not in one clear answer.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.
It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]
Not arguing that follow through is important, but…it’s just plain wrong to say that speed has little effect on punching power. A very simple example of this would be the difference between a push/shove and a palm strike. Both movements are essentially the same, the only difference is the speed at which the hand is moving when it makes contact with the target. In both scenarios follow through can also be identical as well, so that clearly isn’t the deciding factor when it comes to impact force.
I’m sure that pretty much everyone here has encountered people who “push” their punches as well. Plenty of follow through, but no impact.
Again, people can try to make this stuff all mystic and there is plenty of “traditional” thinking in sports like boxing and some systems of Martial Arts, but it really just comes down to plain old Newtonian physics.
The Newtonian equation for kinetic force is as follows:
Ek=1/2M x V2
In other words, kinetic energy is equal to 1/2 the mass times the velocity (speed) squared. This means that a doubling of the velocity will equate to 4 times the amount of kinetic energy. A very simple example would be, that a car moving at 40 miles per hour will take 4 times as much distance to stop as a car moving at 20 mph.
This is the reason that asteroids have such incredible impact force when they hit earth. Or why a penny dropped off the top of the Empire State Building will literally embed itself into the pavement.
Since punching is essentially a form of “elastic collision” (think of billiard balls, where the kinetic force from your pool cue is mostly preserved and transferred into the cue ball, which then is mostly preserved and transferred into the object ball), then the kinetic energy which we create through our punch is mostly preserved and transferred into the target which we are punching and is the “impact” force experienced by the target.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Since punching is essentially a form of “elastic collision” (think of billiard balls, where the kinetic force from your pool cue is mostly preserved and transferred into the cue ball, which then is mostly preserved and transferred into the object ball), then the kinetic energy which we create through our punch is mostly preserved and transferred into the target which we are punching and is the “impact” force experienced by the target.[/quote]
I would actually argue that punching and other striking actions are very inelastic. I think that the significant difference in power as it pertains to most striking sports (punching, hitting a baseball or tennis ball, spiking a volleyball, kicking a ball, etc.) is not the speed at which the contact point is moving. For instance, when I coach middle schoolers in volleyball, they can easily swing their arms just about as fast as I can. Yet, when they go to spike, their arms turn to floppy noodles at contact, thus very little of that kinetic energy is actually transferred to the ball.
I’m quite positive that I could accelerate a punch as fast as the punch Carwin throws at 0:38 here:
His arm is really not moving that freakishly fast. Thus, if the collisions were elastic, I could have as much KO power as Carwin.
Yet, we all know that certainly is not the case. I suspect that is because the collisions are very inelastic, particularly among lesser-skilled athletes such as myself. Accordingly, I would argue that the primary skill of punching power is the ability to make the collision more elastic by:
a.) Getting everything “lined up” so that the force is not deflected away at an angle.
b.) Rapidly creating extremely high levels of muscle tension just as contact occurs, which would again help in force being absorbed by the target rather than back into the punching arm.
These two points also seem to line up with what expert coaches say in most of these striking sports.
Increase velocity and mass would increase the potential energy to be transferred to the target, but it seems to me that the primary difference between powerful and not-so-powerful punchers is the ability to transfer more of that potential energy to the target. Of course, neglecting factors such as accuracy and timing which are probably even more important but somewhat out of the realm of a physics debate.