Another Punching Power thread

[Sentoguy]

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Since punching is essentially a form of “elastic collision” (think of billiard balls, where the kinetic force from your pool cue is mostly preserved and transferred into the cue ball, which then is mostly preserved and transferred into the object ball), then the kinetic energy which we create through our punch is mostly preserved and transferred into the target which we are punching and is the “impact” force experienced by the target.[/quote]

I would actually argue that punching and other striking actions are very inelastic. I think that the significant difference in power as it pertains to most striking sports (punching, hitting a baseball or tennis ball, spiking a volleyball, kicking a ball, etc.) is not the speed at which the contact point is moving. For instance, when I coach middle schoolers in volleyball, they can easily swing their arms just about as fast as I can. Yet, when they go to spike, their arms turn to floppy noodles at contact, thus very little of that kinetic energy is actually transferred to the ball.

I’m quite positive that I could accelerate a punch as fast as the punch Carwin throws at 0:38 here:

His arm is really not moving that freakishly fast. Thus, if the collisions were elastic, I could have as much KO power as Carwin.
[/quote]

No, because mass is still a factor, and I doubt that you have as much mass behind your punch as Carwin.

Yet, we all know that certainly is not the case. I suspect that is because the collisions are very inelastic, particularly among lesser-skilled athletes such as myself. Accordingly, I would argue that the primary skill of punching power is the ability to make the collision more elastic by:

a.) Getting everything “lined up” so that the force is not deflected away at an angle.
b.) Rapidly creating extremely high levels of muscle tension just as contact occurs, which would again help in force being absorbed by the target rather than back into the punching arm.

Getting everything lined up is a key component, yes. There needs to be a kinetic chain from the ground up, through the body and finally the force is transferred through the fist (or shin, elbow, head, whatever) into the target.

But, I disagree with wanting to create extremely high levels of muscle tension as contact occurs. This actually creates a greater propensity for “rebound” (meaning that some of the kinetic force is absorbed back into your body and not transferred into the target). You want enough muscle tension so that the “structure” doesn’t break down, but more than that just wastes your energy and can actually rob you of power.

From my understanding, the more you “feel” like you hit something really hard (you feel that jolt in your shoulder/back), the more of the force that was not transferred into the target but instead rebounded back into you. When you hit something really hard and do it right, it shouldn’t feel like you hit anything substantial. In other words that “feeling of hitting something hard” is actually the opposite of what you want. This is due to more (ideally all, but that’s probably not physically possible) of the energy being transferred into the target and less into you.

[quote]
These two points also seem to line up with what expert coaches say in most of these striking sports.

Increase velocity and mass would increase the potential energy to be transferred to the target, but it seems to me that the primary difference between powerful and not-so-powerful punchers is the ability to transfer more of that potential energy to the target. Of course, neglecting factors such as accuracy and timing which are probably even more important but somewhat out of the realm of a physics debate.[/quote]

Being able to transfer more or less of the force is another component.

[jtrinsey]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
No, because mass is still a factor, and I doubt that you have as much mass behind your punch as Carwin.[/quote]

W/e. Wanderlei Silva then. The point is still the same: I can create as much kinetic energy as a known knockout artist but my punch isn’t going to hit with the same amount of force. Thus, there’s got to be something pretty significant going on besides kinetic energy.

[quote]
But, I disagree with wanting to create extremely high levels of muscle tension as contact occurs. [/quote]

I just want to note that I’m using muscle tension in the meaning of muscle activation rather than a feeling of “tenseness.” Any EMG study on any sort of impact shows a pretty big spike in muscle activation.

[quote]
This actually creates a greater propensity for “rebound” (meaning that some of the kinetic force is absorbed back into your body and not transferred into the target). You want enough muscle tension so that the “structure” doesn’t break down, but more than that just wastes your energy and can actually rob you of power.[/quote]

Why would it create a great propensity for rebound? Well, in one sense it would, because of the whole equal and opposite reaction deal, but I don’t think that’s what you’re getting at here. I agree that if the muscles (especially antagonists) fire too early, it would have a braking effect and kinetic energy would be lost. However, a high degree of muscular tension would seem to be needed to transfer force back to the target.

Imagine running into a door that is:

a.) Unlatched
b.) Latched and wooden
c.) Latched and metal

You can run into the three of them at the same speed (and thus the same kinetic energy) and have wildly different outcomes. Since most physical collisions are inelastic, momentum/impulse is a better way to look at it then energy.

It’s really more of a deal of momentum = impulse or mv/t = F. An increase in mass or velocity or a decrease in time will increase the force. A basketball will bounce higher on a wood board then a foam mat because of the difference in impulse time, even though momentum is the same.

[goldengloves]

[quote]drewh wrote:
If punching is alot about speed, then why is punching power the last thing to go as a fighter ages? I was watching an old Duran fight when he was 42 and fat and he just clobbered a guy.[/quote]

It’s muscle memory. The fighter will only lose his punch when he can’t execute the mechanics of the punch optimally.

Punching is about speed to an extent, punching is primarily about proper mechanics though. The speed which you can execute the movement translates to punching power, and some fighters execute the movement better than others.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
No, because mass is still a factor, and I doubt that you have as much mass behind your punch as Carwin.[/quote]

W/e. Wanderlei Silva then. The point is still the same: I can create as much kinetic energy as a known knockout artist but my punch isn’t going to hit with the same amount of force. Thus, there’s got to be something pretty significant going on besides kinetic energy.
[/quote]

Again, it’s not just about the amount of kinetic energy though. If you can register the same amount of force on a target that Wandy can, then you can create as much power/kinetic energy as he can. The difference would be that he’s probably a hell of a lot better at actually landing that strike on a moving target than you are.

But, I disagree with wanting to create extremely high levels of muscle tension as contact occurs. [/quote]

I just want to note that I’m using muscle tension in the meaning of muscle activation rather than a feeling of “tenseness.” Any EMG study on any sort of impact shows a pretty big spike in muscle activation.

Ok, well I won’t argue with that then.

This actually creates a greater propensity for “rebound” (meaning that some of the kinetic force is absorbed back into your body and not transferred into the target). You want enough muscle tension so that the “structure” doesn’t break down, but more than that just wastes your energy and can actually rob you of power.[/quote]

Why would it create a great propensity for rebound? Well, in one sense it would, because of the whole equal and opposite reaction deal, but I don’t think that’s what you’re getting at here. I agree that if the muscles (especially antagonists) fire too early, it would have a braking effect and kinetic energy would be lost. However, a high degree of muscular tension would seem to be needed to transfer force back to the target.

Imagine running into a door that is:

a.) Unlatched
b.) Latched and wooden
c.) Latched and metal

You can run into the three of them at the same speed (and thus the same kinetic energy) and have wildly different outcomes. Since most physical collisions are inelastic, momentum/impulse is a better way to look at it then energy.

Ok, then think of it this way, ever hit something really solid with a bat? Know that “buzzing” feeling that you get in your hands? That’s the energy “rebounding” back down the bat. Now imaging hitting something with a mace ball. The kinetic energy that is transferred into the target might be similar, but you won’t ever feel that “buzzing” in your hands because the energy doesn’t transfer well through less rigid structures. The more rigid you are at impact the easier it is for the energy to travel back into you, the less rigid, the more energy will transfer into the target.

The best board and brick breakers in the world do so while staying very relaxed because they realize this phenomenon. Now, obviously there are “tricks of the trade” when it comes to breaking, and breaking a brick is different than hitting a moving, thinking target. But the same concept applies.

There used to be a video up on youtube of Joe Lewis explaining and demonstrating this concept, but I can’t seem to find it atm. Maybe someone took it down. If I can find it, I’ll post it.

[quote]
It’s really more of a deal of momentum = impulse or mv/t = F. An increase in mass or velocity or a decrease in time will increase the force. A basketball will bounce higher on a wood board then a foam mat because of the difference in impulse time, even though momentum is the same.[/quote]

True. But again, a basketball traveling at a greater speed will bounce higher than one traveling at a lesser speed. So no matter how you want to represent punching power, velocity/speed will always be a key component.

I’m not denying your idea that momentum is a factor, and perhaps punching power is somewhat of a combination of both.

[milktruck]

I would knock any of you nerds out …

ok kidding probably not, plus Im a nerd too. Very interesting discussion guys, thx.

I do feel better about not feeling like I connected so well last street/bar fight I was in now (first one in ? years). Its less satisfying but Ill tell myself I was efficiently transferring force…

[jtrinsey]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, then think of it this way, ever hit something really solid with a bat? Know that “buzzing” feeling that you get in your hands? That’s the energy “rebounding” back down the bat. [/quote]

Grip the bat loosely and hit something: lots of buzz. Grip it tighter and hit something: less buzz. Tighten too early and you’ll lose bat speed, but don’t tighten at all and the ball won’t go anywhere. I suspect the best batters keep their swing loose and fluid but get a huge (and very brief) spike in muscle activity at moment of contact. Much like I would suspect the best punchers.

Of course, I say this all with the caveat that I’m no scientist and not even an experienced fighter. Just a nerd going from one sport (volleyball) involving high-speed collisions to another; MMA. It’s an interesting discussion though.

[jc2000]

Lol at the OPs mention of Duran, a man with dynamite in TWO hands…

To Sento & JT,

I think that acceleration/ quickness is more important than actual speed/ velocity.

Acceleration (an increase in speed) leading into, and the intention to continue it through, the moment of impact will lead to greater levels of inertial forces then speedâ?¦ Weight is also important here, as is stability/ control of the force being generated.

Think of a footballer breaking a tackleâ?¦ MOST of the time this is due to a playerâ??s acceleration just prior to the moment of impact, more so then any other factor in the equation.

With regard to the nothingness or sweet spot of any big hitâ?¦ I feel this is mainly due to a greater level of overcoming/ overwhelm-ness of one objects force over the others, and the subsequent ability of the more powerful object to continue through the target, which reduces the rebound back from the collisionâ?¦ Grip/ hand strength and stability are also important here.

However when a collision will be mainly absorbed by the collision itself and is also fairly even (I like to think of punching the ground, cause it just doesnâ??t move, or a LOT of bricks) or there is a risk of injury due to follow through it may be better to yield some what just after impact to help minimise the rebound effect, much like a ball & chain does.

[Sifu]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.

It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]

So let me get this right…you say speed has little effect on punching power…and if making contact loads up motor units to keep the movement going…AND following through is important…wouldn’t hitting the heavy bag be a better benefit than shadowboxing IF(keyword) the goal is to work on punching power??? [/quote]

Actually let me restate that about speed because now that I reread it that is not exactly what I wanted to say. What I should have wrote is speed is over rated and it is over rated because people have an inaccurate idea of how the body works. What most people believe is that all the acceleration up until the point of impact is where the power comes from, because the moment the strike hits it’s target it begins slowing down and therefore losing power.

In actuality the moment the strike makes contact it triggers a neuromuscular effect within the muscle that increases the power generated. What happens is muscle fibers that aren’t being used start getting stretched by the ones that are contracting, this triggers the nervous system to fire them as well. Heavybag, airshields and Makiwara are useful then because they train the body to produce this affect.

The way that follow through comes into this is the brain essentially runs a program for any particular strike that tells the body what to do. So if the brain is used to sending a limb from point A to point B it is going to do what it needs to do to produce that movement. If somewhere along the way something gets in the way the body is going to try to move the limb through it as if it wasn’t there and it does this by recruiting extra motor units.

So instead of thinking of one being better than the other I like to think of them as tools which have a specific purpose . So that when they are used together they enhance your training in such a way that the sum is greater than the parts.

[quote]
Are you basically just saying that working on technique(shadowboxing,etc) should be priority before worrying about power on a heavy bag?? If so,I agree completely. [/quote]

I agree with that. You need to have some kind of a foundation of good technique before you go blasting away on a heavybag because you can start programming bad habits into your technique which you eventually will have to unlearn and that can be real difficult if you have been doing it for many years.

On the other hand I wouldn’t go so far as to say don’t use a heaybag early in your training, but I would say don’t get so focused on killing the bag that you lose focus on your technique. One strategy for that is just practice one technique several times in a row instead of free fighting on the bag. That way you can analyze the last strike and think about what adjustments you need to make the next one better.

Also when you are working on technique do it when you are fresh and best able to perform at your best. Because every time you perform a technique your body learns it a little bit more. If you are getting sloppy because you are tired your going to program sloppy technique.

[Sifu]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.

It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]

Not arguing that follow through is important, but…it’s just plain wrong to say that speed has little effect on punching power. A very simple example of this would be the difference between a push/shove and a palm strike. Both movements are essentially the same, the only difference is the speed at which the hand is moving when it makes contact with the target. In both scenarios follow through can also be identical as well, so that clearly isn’t the deciding factor when it comes to impact force. [/quote]

You are right that speed is a factor. I was tired and didn’t proofread what I wrote. What I really meant to say is speed is an overrated factor, because people don’t understand how the body works.

[quote]
I’m sure that pretty much everyone here has encountered people who “push” their punches as well. Plenty of follow through, but no impact.

Again, people can try to make this stuff all mystic and there is plenty of “traditional” thinking in sports like boxing and some systems of Martial Arts, but it really just comes down to plain old Newtonian physics.

The Newtonian equation for kinetic force is as follows:
Ek=1/2M x V2

In other words, kinetic energy is equal to 1/2 the mass times the velocity (speed) squared. This means that a doubling of the velocity will equate to 4 times the amount of kinetic energy. A very simple example would be, that a car moving at 40 miles per hour will take 4 times as much distance to stop as a car moving at 20 mph.[/quote]

I am familiar with this model. The big flaw in it, is it doesn’t factor in what happens after the strike makes contact with the target and begins to decelerate. According to Newtons formula the strike begins to lose force as soon as it begins to decelerate, which is not true because of how the body actually works.

[quote]
This is the reason that asteroids have such incredible impact force when they hit earth. Or why a penny dropped off the top of the Empire State Building will literally embed itself into the pavement.

Since punching is essentially a form of “elastic collision” (think of billiard balls, where the kinetic force from your pool cue is mostly preserved and transferred into the cue ball, which then is mostly preserved and transferred into the object ball), then the kinetic energy which we create through our punch is mostly preserved and transferred into the target which we are punching and is the “impact” force experienced by the target.[/quote]

A better analogy for how the human body works would be bunker buster bombs. One type uses gravity. So from the time it leaves the airplane it is accelerating, until it hits the ground then it begins to decelerate as it penetrates the ground. This bombs maximum force was as the moment of impact. This is how those who use the Newtonian law of force concieve of strikes.

The other type also uses gravity until it hits the ground. At that moment it fires off a rocket motor to keep it from decelerating as it penetrates the ground. This tyoe goes much deeper. This is similar to how the human body actually works. Which is why heavybag and plyometrics training can improve striking power.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.

It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]

Not arguing that follow through is important, but…it’s just plain wrong to say that speed has little effect on punching power. A very simple example of this would be the difference between a push/shove and a palm strike. Both movements are essentially the same, the only difference is the speed at which the hand is moving when it makes contact with the target. In both scenarios follow through can also be identical as well, so that clearly isn’t the deciding factor when it comes to impact force. [/quote]

You are right that speed is a factor. I was tired and didn’t proofread what I wrote. What I really meant to say is speed is an overrated factor, because people don’t understand how the body works.

[quote]
I’m sure that pretty much everyone here has encountered people who “push” their punches as well. Plenty of follow through, but no impact.

Again, people can try to make this stuff all mystic and there is plenty of “traditional” thinking in sports like boxing and some systems of Martial Arts, but it really just comes down to plain old Newtonian physics.

The Newtonian equation for kinetic force is as follows:
Ek=1/2M x V2

In other words, kinetic energy is equal to 1/2 the mass times the velocity (speed) squared. This means that a doubling of the velocity will equate to 4 times the amount of kinetic energy. A very simple example would be, that a car moving at 40 miles per hour will take 4 times as much distance to stop as a car moving at 20 mph.[/quote]

I am familiar with this model. The big flaw in it, is it doesn’t factor in what happens after the strike makes contact with the target and begins to decelerate. According to Newtons formula the strike begins to lose force as soon as it begins to decelerate, which is not true because of how the body actually works.

[quote]
This is the reason that asteroids have such incredible impact force when they hit earth. Or why a penny dropped off the top of the Empire State Building will literally embed itself into the pavement.

Since punching is essentially a form of “elastic collision” (think of billiard balls, where the kinetic force from your pool cue is mostly preserved and transferred into the cue ball, which then is mostly preserved and transferred into the object ball), then the kinetic energy which we create through our punch is mostly preserved and transferred into the target which we are punching and is the “impact” force experienced by the target.[/quote]

A better analogy for how the human body works would be bunker buster bombs. One type uses gravity. So from the time it leaves the airplane it is accelerating, until it hits the ground then it begins to decelerate as it penetrates the ground. This bombs maximum force was as the moment of impact. This is how those who use the Newtonian law of force concieve of strikes.

The other type also uses gravity until it hits the ground. At that moment it fires off a rocket motor to keep it from decelerating as it penetrates the ground. This tyoe goes much deeper. This is similar to how the human body actually works. Which is why heavybag and plyometrics training can improve striking power. [/quote]

Cool, I’ll agree with that.

Although, like I said in an earlier post, there are differing models of punching. In other words, some coaches are big on tightening up at impact, others are big on “releasing” on impact. Both can generate powerful punches if the mechanics are understood properly.

[Big_Boss]

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.

It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]

So let me get this right…you say speed has little effect on punching power…and if making contact loads up motor units to keep the movement going…AND following through is important…wouldn’t hitting the heavy bag be a better benefit than shadowboxing IF(keyword) the goal is to work on punching power??? [/quote]

Actually let me restate that about speed because now that I reread it that is not exactly what I wanted to say. What I should have wrote is speed is over rated and it is over rated because people have an inaccurate idea of how the body works. What most people believe is that all the acceleration up until the point of impact is where the power comes from, because the moment the strike hits it’s target it begins slowing down and therefore losing power.

In actuality the moment the strike makes contact it triggers a neuromuscular effect within the muscle that increases the power generated. What happens is muscle fibers that aren’t being used start getting stretched by the ones that are contracting, this triggers the nervous system to fire them as well. Heavybag, airshields and Makiwara are useful then because they train the body to produce this affect.

The way that follow through comes into this is the brain essentially runs a program for any particular strike that tells the body what to do. So if the brain is used to sending a limb from point A to point B it is going to do what it needs to do to produce that movement. If somewhere along the way something gets in the way the body is going to try to move the limb through it as if it wasn’t there and it does this by recruiting extra motor units.

So instead of thinking of one being better than the other I like to think of them as tools which have a specific purpose . So that when they are used together they enhance your training in such a way that the sum is greater than the parts.

[quote]
Are you basically just saying that working on technique(shadowboxing,etc) should be priority before worrying about power on a heavy bag?? If so,I agree completely. [/quote]

I agree with that. You need to have some kind of a foundation of good technique before you go blasting away on a heavybag because you can start programming bad habits into your technique which you eventually will have to unlearn and that can be real difficult if you have been doing it for many years.

On the other hand I wouldn’t go so far as to say don’t use a heaybag early in your training, but I would say don’t get so focused on killing the bag that you lose focus on your technique. One strategy for that is just practice one technique several times in a row instead of free fighting on the bag. That way you can analyze the last strike and think about what adjustments you need to make the next one better.

Also when you are working on technique do it when you are fresh and best able to perform at your best. Because every time you perform a technique your body learns it a little bit more. If you are getting sloppy because you are tired your going to program sloppy technique.[/quote]

All makes sense…thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Sifu]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going. But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.

It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]

Not arguing that follow through is important, but…it’s just plain wrong to say that speed has little effect on punching power. A very simple example of this would be the difference between a push/shove and a palm strike. Both movements are essentially the same, the only difference is the speed at which the hand is moving when it makes contact with the target. In both scenarios follow through can also be identical as well, so that clearly isn’t the deciding factor when it comes to impact force. [/quote]

You are right that speed is a factor. I was tired and didn’t proofread what I wrote. What I really meant to say is speed is an overrated factor, because people don’t understand how the body works.

[quote]
I’m sure that pretty much everyone here has encountered people who “push” their punches as well. Plenty of follow through, but no impact.

Again, people can try to make this stuff all mystic and there is plenty of “traditional” thinking in sports like boxing and some systems of Martial Arts, but it really just comes down to plain old Newtonian physics.

The Newtonian equation for kinetic force is as follows:
Ek=1/2M x V2

In other words, kinetic energy is equal to 1/2 the mass times the velocity (speed) squared. This means that a doubling of the velocity will equate to 4 times the amount of kinetic energy. A very simple example would be, that a car moving at 40 miles per hour will take 4 times as much distance to stop as a car moving at 20 mph.[/quote]

I am familiar with this model. The big flaw in it, is it doesn’t factor in what happens after the strike makes contact with the target and begins to decelerate. According to Newtons formula the strike begins to lose force as soon as it begins to decelerate, which is not true because of how the body actually works.

[quote]
This is the reason that asteroids have such incredible impact force when they hit earth. Or why a penny dropped off the top of the Empire State Building will literally embed itself into the pavement.

Since punching is essentially a form of “elastic collision” (think of billiard balls, where the kinetic force from your pool cue is mostly preserved and transferred into the cue ball, which then is mostly preserved and transferred into the object ball), then the kinetic energy which we create through our punch is mostly preserved and transferred into the target which we are punching and is the “impact” force experienced by the target.[/quote]

A better analogy for how the human body works would be bunker buster bombs. One type uses gravity. So from the time it leaves the airplane it is accelerating, until it hits the ground then it begins to decelerate as it penetrates the ground. This bombs maximum force was as the moment of impact. This is how those who use the Newtonian law of force concieve of strikes.

The other type also uses gravity until it hits the ground. At that moment it fires off a rocket motor to keep it from decelerating as it penetrates the ground. This tyoe goes much deeper. This is similar to how the human body actually works. Which is why heavybag and plyometrics training can improve striking power. [/quote]

Cool, I’ll agree with that.

Although, like I said in an earlier post, there are differing models of punching. In other words, some coaches are big on tightening up at impact, others are big on “releasing” on impact. Both can generate powerful punches if the mechanics are understood properly.[/quote]

If you are relaxed upon impact you will be able to maximize the amount of muscle fibers available to be recruited because contracted ones are already being used. That is why relaxation is the key to one inch punch. The Chinese say you go from Yin to Yang and back to Yin again. Which is what you do with locking up then relaxing.

What you are doing is the timing of when you release or even snap a punch is going to affect the shockwave that you put into your opponent. The relaxation after the strike can also prevent the energy being transferred back into you.

I’ve also learned some Tai Chi striking where you are supposed to remain relaxed the entire time.

[Sifu]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Speed has little effect upon punching power. The reason why is because when the arm is unloaded and traveling towards the target the body uses the minimum amount of muscle fibers necessary to keep the movement going.

But the moment you make contact, the muscles start to load up which triggers a plyometric effect causing the body to fire off more motor units to keep the movement going. This is why follow through is so important to striking power.

It is also why you need to do more than hit a heavy bag. You also need to practice technique where you don’t hit anything so you learn to follow through. [/quote]

So let me get this right…you say speed has little effect on punching power…and if making contact loads up motor units to keep the movement going…AND following through is important…wouldn’t hitting the heavy bag be a better benefit than shadowboxing IF(keyword) the goal is to work on punching power??? [/quote]

Actually let me restate that about speed because now that I reread it that is not exactly what I wanted to say. What I should have wrote is speed is over rated and it is over rated because people have an inaccurate idea of how the body works.

What most people believe is that all the acceleration up until the point of impact is where the power comes from, because the moment the strike hits it’s target it begins slowing down and therefore losing power.

In actuality the moment the strike makes contact it triggers a neuromuscular effect within the muscle that increases the power generated. What happens is muscle fibers that aren’t being used start getting stretched by the ones that are contracting, this triggers the nervous system to fire them as well. Heavybag, airshields and Makiwara are useful then because they train the body to produce this affect.

The way that follow through comes into this is the brain essentially runs a program for any particular strike that tells the body what to do. So if the brain is used to sending a limb from point A to point B it is going to do what it needs to do to produce that movement.

If somewhere along the way something gets in the way the body is going to try to move the limb through it as if it wasn’t there and it does this by recruiting extra motor units.

So instead of thinking of one being better than the other I like to think of them as tools which have a specific purpose . So that when they are used together they enhance your training in such a way that the sum is greater than the parts.

[quote]
Are you basically just saying that working on technique(shadowboxing,etc) should be priority before worrying about power on a heavy bag?? If so,I agree completely. [/quote]

I agree with that. You need to have some kind of a foundation of good technique before you go blasting away on a heavybag because you can start programming bad habits into your technique which you eventually will have to unlearn and that can be real difficult if you have been doing it for many years.

On the other hand I wouldn’t go so far as to say don’t use a heaybag early in your training, but I would say don’t get so focused on killing the bag that you lose focus on your technique.

One strategy for that is just practice one technique several times in a row instead of free fighting on the bag. That way you can analyze the last strike and think about what adjustments you need to make the next one better.

Also when you are working on technique do it when you are fresh and best able to perform at your best. Because every time you perform a technique your body learns it a little bit more. If you are getting sloppy because you are tired your going to program sloppy technique.[/quote]

All makes sense…thanks for clearing that up for me. [/quote]

You’re welcome. It’s good to know all that time I spent reading up on plyometrics has finally been useful to someone.

[ZEB]

Sifu,

You are a very dangerous little man, don’t deny it.

[kaisermetal]

I really like the idea of working only one kind of strike in the bag instead of killing the bag out, it’s a shame that so few people put it to use.

[Sifu]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sifu,

You are a very dangerous little man, don’t deny it.[/quote]

No I’m a very little dangerous man.

[Xen_Nova]

I wrote this somewhere else, felt it was applicable to this thread…

People are forgetting how much of punching power is based purely on technique. A PROPER straight right or muay thai style roundhouse to the leg is more akin to dancing than it is weightlifting. The force equation is important but this is the human body we’re talking about not just a simple physics equation. It’s not just force in one direction its the interaction of the human body to CREATE force. It depends on biological mechanisms JUST as much as it does physics.

Punching power is the result of:

a) how fast your nervous system can activate all necessary muscle groups to the movement

b) how many fibers are activated/recruited

c) proper kinetic linking (technique). Synergy between muscle groups which requires you to be able to have no muscular amnesia and a shit ton of repetition so the muscle groups develope strong neural connections (Which increases a & b)

and to a lesser (but understated) extent,

d) bone density. It’s like taking a piece of paper rolling it into a cylinder and jabbing someone with the end versus rolling up a magazine or a newspaper and jabbing someone with the end. One (obviously) is able to exhibit the force behind it better.

A & B can be increased by weight lifting, proprioreception exercises, and basically a SHITTON of technique drilling.

C is primarily just all technique. Of course if you have gluteal amnesia (for instance) your prime mover (as Rampage said, "put yo’ ass into it) is essentially inactive (or at last not efficient) so if you’re developing a ton of force from the floor (toes, hamstrings, etc) one of your kinetic links is dissapting the force that you should be transfering into your opponent. Again, the strengthening of your kinetic links can be improved via prehabilitation, weight lifting, and myofascial release.

D is for the most part genetic (which is where the whole “punches are born” thing comes from). African American’s notoriously have a denser bone structure (thus where the whole black people can’t swim/float misconception comes from), thus why you see more black knockout artists than you often do other races(along with better A, B, and C variables) but I digress…

Weight lifting, vitamin D, proper calcium/magnesium, and other dietary concerns can improve you bone density. If I’m correct, HGH will improve bone density too so I wouldn’t be surprised if more and more guys turn out to be knockout artists later in their careers when they weren’t previously (you heard it here first lol).

Basically

• eat better.
• lift weights.
• correct any muscular imbalances
• DRILL DRILL DRILL DRILL DRILL

[anon31651765]

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
If I’m correct, HGH will improve bone density too so I wouldn’t be surprised if more and more guys turn out to be knockout artists later in their careers when they weren’t previously (you heard it here first lol).

[/quote]

Xen- spectacular post. Agree with all of it. But this!!! Verrry interesting, I hadn’t thought about that. I’m going to be watching that pretty fuckin carefully… because you and me both know that guys don’t build KO power late in their careers. It may be the last thing to go (if it ever does), but you don’t turn into a power puncher at 35.

Very interesting observation.

[drewh]

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
I wrote this somewhere else, felt it was applicable to this thread…

People are forgetting how much of punching power is based purely on technique. A PROPER straight right or muay thai style roundhouse to the leg is more akin to dancing than it is weightlifting. The force equation is important but this is the human body we’re talking about not just a simple physics equation. It’s not just force in one direction its the interaction of the human body to CREATE force. It depends on biological mechanisms JUST as much as it does physics.

Punching power is the result of:

a) how fast your nervous system can activate all necessary muscle groups to the movement

b) how many fibers are activated/recruited

c) proper kinetic linking (technique). Synergy between muscle groups which requires you to be able to have no muscular amnesia and a shit ton of repetition so the muscle groups develope strong neural connections (Which increases a & b)

and to a lesser (but understated) extent,

d) bone density. It’s like taking a piece of paper rolling it into a cylinder and jabbing someone with the end versus rolling up a magazine or a newspaper and jabbing someone with the end. One (obviously) is able to exhibit the force behind it better.

A & B can be increased by weight lifting, proprioreception exercises, and basically a SHITTON of technique drilling.

C is primarily just all technique. Of course if you have gluteal amnesia (for instance) your prime mover (as Rampage said, "put yo’ ass into it) is essentially inactive (or at last not efficient) so if you’re developing a ton of force from the floor (toes, hamstrings, etc) one of your kinetic links is dissapting the force that you should be transfering into your opponent. Again, the strengthening of your kinetic links can be improved via prehabilitation, weight lifting, and myofascial release.

D is for the most part genetic (which is where the whole “punches are born” thing comes from). African American’s notoriously have a denser bone structure (thus where the whole black people can’t swim/float misconception comes from), thus why you see more black knockout artists than you often do other races(along with better A, B, and C variables) but I digress…

Weight lifting, vitamin D, proper calcium/magnesium, and other dietary concerns can improve you bone density. If I’m correct, HGH will improve bone density too so I wouldn’t be surprised if more and more guys turn out to be knockout artists later in their careers when they weren’t previously (you heard it here first lol).

Basically

• eat better.
• lift weights.
• correct any muscular imbalances
• DRILL DRILL DRILL DRILL DRILL[/quote]
  Here is another interesting thing sport movements tend to be very motor unit specific that’s why things like plyos don’t alway equate to harder punches.

[kaisermetal]

I think those conditioning crazy workouts the UFC guys does are just waste of time, they should focus more on sparring and technique itself, just like in Thailand