What is Knockout Power?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Yes, I realize the short answer = the power to knock someone out.

But (setting aside the old ‘punch you never see coming’ caveat) I come from a long grappling background. Strikers with the ability to knockout opponents seem to my untrained eye to come with no rhyme or reason.

There doesn’t seem to be a strength threshold where you suddenly are “strong” enough to knock some one out. Speed doesn’t seem to be some automatic key either, as there are guys with fast hands who can pepper jab almost too fast to see but don’t ever make anyone’s knees buckles.

It doesn’t seem like accuracy is the secret either as you keep hearing “he nailed him on the button!” then the next match you see a bunch of punches land on what the announcer called the button and the other guys keeps right on fighting.

Then there are guys who’ll knock you out going backwards, knock you out with a jab, do some funky angle at half power and knock people out.

Is there really a way to train to gain consistent knock out ability or is some how some kind of weird genetic ability some guys have some guys don’t?

2

speed + mass + accuracy = knockout

I’m sure one of the other guys here can explain the physics side of thing a bit better, and you’ll then see why even a lumbering guy like george foreman is technically “fast” where it counts. Then you have the obvious examples like Tyson, who was not only preternaturally fast but while under the tutelage of d’amato/rooney was a very accurate puncher with technique that allowed him to get the most leverage out of every punch.

But above all else, accuracy. Show me a knockout artist and I’ll show you someone who consistently lands heavy shots on all the right targets.

3

That’s a good answer and common sense says your equation is the answer. Now you pointed to two well known boxing knockout powerhouses and when you add those examples to your sped+plus+mass+accuracy you get where my confusion comes in.

Tyson = legendary. Liddel = freaky examples. Foreman = famous lights out guy. Fedor = mutant. (etc, etc, etc)

But did they or anybody else from boxing to mma to K1 (or whatever) who has a string of wins of by knockouts train really all that different from anyone else in their sport? It seems like all combat sport athletes are given pretty much the same training (and speed training, strength boosting workouts, and continual accuracy reinforcement are pretty standard “camp” training focuses.

Yet some emerge being able to knockout people and others have managed to secure title belts without ever really throwing those sleep aid strikes or maybe only 2 or 3 across a 20 fight career, etc.

Are you saying some fighters just “don’t get it” even if they manage to rise through the ranks of a ufc or whatever or that some key part is missing from even the training of great fighters?

I’m not arguing with you–just saying it looks like everyone learns the same stuff but only a relative minority ever string together a resume built around KO’s while others can wins long runs of fights based on out-fighting their opponents but never putting them to sleep.

Maybe this is a bad example but it’s famous so I’m sure everyone has heard of it and so we can reference it: The Bonnar vs Griffin fight. Just these guys who rose to journeyman level, had decent if not GSP athletic ability, and who were hitting each other hard from temple to chin point and it just went on and on and on. And I only mean that as an example, there are plenty of fights just like that all the time.

It it’s just a matter of 3 skills (and maybe it is) and we know there are ways to train those skills–why do we see only (IMO based on watching fights not because I figured the %'s via a Yale funded study) a few fighter become knockout artists while others become ‘technitions’ who win judge points based on style and others become brawlers who absorb horrible damage but keep throwing heavy shots and win because the judges give 'em dominant aggression points but their opponent (beat to bloody help but still awake) was never put out.

Note–I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just asking if trainers know what makes for knock out power and know how to train those skills or attributes why aren’t more fights ended more often by KO? There seems to be some kind of “some have it some don’t” factor that leaves me scratching my head.

I’d spend a thousand bucks to learn from a private boxing coach how to throw a left hook or inside uppercut that was a for sure formula for lights out but I’m left with a feeling that I could train for years and still never KO someone while some kid walking in right out of high school could win his first amateur fight with a KO straight out of the gate.

Post got a little long but I was just trying to make clear I wasn’t saying you wrong, just confused at its seeming lack of application across the board of professional combat sports.

4

I don’t know if there is a way to test it, but I’ve heard that it could be differences in bone density/tendon strength so that you can transfer more force to the opponent rather than having it disperse through your hand/wrist, you know? And again, that’s just a theory I’ve heard on why some guys just seem to be big punchers naturally and some guys aren’t. I’ve noticed in my own experience that the stronger my hands/forearms get it seems that I have a little more pop, but I’m still not just a nasty KO puncher.

And it could be simply that cream rises to the top or whatever the saying is. For every Tyson and Liddell and Emelianenko, there are dozens of scrubs like me thinking “Why can’t I put anyone down?” lol

5

You can’t teach power. Some guys are born knowing how to throw, some aren’t, and you can’t take a Paulie Malignaggi and turn him into a Tommy Hearns. It just doesn’t happen.

Knockout power has very little to do with any sort of muscular attribute, or deadlifting numbers, or ab strength, or whatever strength and conditioning coaches want you to think. It’s actually the combination of staying loose, knowing how to turn all your weight into a punch, what range to throw from, and where to hit. That combination is what makes for KO’s.

Range is the most under appreciated aspect of that. Guys can’t understand why they don’t KO someone with their 2, but they never put it together that they’re too close and muffling all the power. Or that they’re too far away when they throw their hooks, so they lose that tight coiled-up power you’re supposed to generate.

This happens a lot more in MMA, where even though they’re wearing tiny ass gloves, they rarely know how to punch correctly.

6

This is a great question. I think that even if he’d never trained a day in his life, Usain Bolt would still be fast as fuck, Michael Jordan would’ve still been able to jump out the gym, Wayne Gretzky would’ve still had freakish hand/eye coordination, and Mike Tyson would still lay a motherfucker out. Some guys just have it. That’s not to say that you can’t train to maximize your abilities, because you can and should. Just saying it’s something you come out the box with.

7

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
This is a great question. I think that even if he’d never trained a day in his life, Usain Bolt would still be fast as fuck, Michael Jordan would’ve still been able to jump out the gym, Wayne Gretzky would’ve still had freakish hand/eye coordination, and Mike Tyson would still lay a motherfucker out. Some guys just have it. That’s not to say that you can’t train to maximize your abilities, because you can and should. Just saying it’s something you come out the box with.[/quote]

Yea brotha. It’s like hand speed. You can increase that as much as your genetics is going to allow, but no amount of training is going to make you Floyd Mayweather. You’re born like that or you aren’t.

Same thing with power. You can train a lot of the aspects, but if you can punch, you were born that way.

8

Some great answers as always. A few thoughts of my own.

Timing - You’ve got it or you don’t. It’s a matter of milliseconds between a solid shot and a knockout shot. Like Irish mentioned above with regards to hand speed, it can be improved, but nothing is going to give you that fundamental instinct that says ‘pull the trigger now’, at which point your judgement of range, hand speed, accuracy etc all come into play. The best knockout punchers in my experience are guys who instinctively are perfectly in tune to their respective skills, and are able to judge them immaculately on a resisting opponent.

The other quality IMO that makes a good knockout puncher is the ability to be calm. Irish wrote of the ‘ability to stay loose’. This is essential, and goes beyond just being relaxed in the ring. To me, it is a state of mind that allows certain fighters to be extremely calm when the leather is flying. There is a difference between being used to fighting and composed in a fight, and being naturally calm and unphased when the guy opposite is banging away at you. This cannot be taught. You’ve got it or you don’t.

Perhaps a third more obvious quality is that the great KO artists tend to fight with bad intentions - the ability to flick a switch and be able to throw with genuine disregard for the harm it may cause. It is more rare that a fighter who fights with bad intentions makes it through to the higher levels in the pro game. Most guys who fight with real malice are one dimensional and are easily beaten coming up at amateur level. The ones who can combine their bad intent with legit skill and smarts, tend to be devastating punchers.

9

London and Irish very well put. I would only add that there are a certain areas that when struck certainly result in a KO’s a greater percentage of the time. The sides of the head with particular attention to the temple and above the ear, straight on to the lower chin, and my most eloquent favorite the liver just below the right diaphragm margin frontal axillary line. One last point there is a flip side to this, there are people that are not like the norm and certain points in there career are very if not impossible to knock out. I faced one such hard headed gentleman, as the bout went on I clearly had the upper hand and really concentrated on knocking him out.

Well at the end of the third round I had hit him harder and longer than I had ever hit anyone before, he took 20-30 of my best shots right to the areas described and kept coming forward. He got wobbly a couple of times but never went to a knee, it was incredible. His face looked so bad at the end of the bout that he was and is the only opponent that I every pitied after a bout.

10

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You can’t teach power. Some guys are born knowing how to throw, some aren’t, and you can’t take a Paulie Malignaggi and turn him into a Tommy Hearns. It just doesn’t happen.

Knockout power has very little to do with any sort of muscular attribute, or deadlifting numbers, or ab strength, or whatever strength and conditioning coaches want you to think. It’s actually the combination of staying loose, knowing how to turn all your weight into a punch, what range to throw from, and where to hit. That combination is what makes for KO’s.

Range is the most under appreciated aspect of that. Guys can’t understand why they don’t KO someone with their 2, but they never put it together that they’re too close and muffling all the power. Or that they’re too far away when they throw their hooks, so they lose that tight coiled-up power you’re supposed to generate.

This happens a lot more in MMA, where even though they’re wearing tiny ass gloves, they rarely know how to punch correctly. [/quote]

"â??There is no such thing as a natural puncher. There is a natural aptitude for punching and that is different. Nobody is born the best. You have to practice and train to become the best.â?? Cus D’Amato

I strongly disagree that you can’t teach power, you absolutely can teach it. As Cus says above though, there are people who are born with natural attributes which predispose them to being able to achieve greater power in their punches than some other people (denser bone structures, bigger hands, better coordination, better timing and accuracy, more speed/fast twitch fibers, etc…), just like you’ve got people who are predisposed to excel at dead lifting if they learn to do it correctly and work and eat consistently to allow them to maximize that natural aptitude, but every great deadlifter had to work hard and learn the skill of dead lifting correctly.

Likewise you can teach anyone how to increase their punching power and through hard work and proper coaching they can maximize their power. Not everyone is going to be able to be the next Tyson though, so don’t misunderstand what I am saying.

11

1 punch ko’s feeel goood. It always helps if the person has a weak chin, also I would never test knock out power on a guy who is way heavier than myself they tend to be able to absorb more force. Any untrained douche 200 pounds or less I’d say I would have a chance to knock em out. I trained in hockey to be very explosive that helped and boxed a bit here and there.

No where near a talented or trained fighter as irish sento and Melvin but I would say that it is half genetic half trained for myself. Really learning how to punch and training boxing and having the ability to be quick, whole nature vs nurture thing I always believed it to be a bit of both. Just how I have to force myself to be good at endurance but I can run 100 m in less than 13 or 12 seconds with out training for it.

12

i was always confused how the Diaz boys (in the UFC) knocked people out… their pitter-patter style just didn’t make sense to me. then i saw some pics of a couple friends of mine training with them, and Nate dwarfed several guys that i know to be 6’ and 200 lbs. i think people generally underestimate the mass that they have, and the actual weight behind their punches. so with that being said, i think this helps illustrate how much weight/bone density matter…

obviously a combination of speed and mass equals force (well, work, but whatever). i’ve never been all that impressed in sparring quick little TKD guys, or big powerlifters. usually the “all-round athletes” seemed to get this level of power pretty quick, tho…

target selection matters a lot, too. i’m not just talking about accuracy, but things like Tyson’s ability to set up the KO off of the body shot… one thing i always try to explain to younger guys in my style of striking (which might not actually be right), is that when i throw a jab, i’m trying to get someone to move their head where i want it, to land the follow on punch, so that their posture and weight is disrupted and can’t absorb it as well. Weidmann’s KO of Anderson Silva kinda illustrates how this works…

aggression matters a lot too, IMO. i’ve knocked out a lot of people throughout my life, and did it just as much before i trained as after i had learned how to hit. i guess i was gifted with the ability to throw 100% power while keeping my hips underneath me… i compare my style to Tyson, but that’s really quite the exaggeration on my part. maybe being naturally aggressive allows me to get people “on the run” and set it up…i dunno.

13

The Diaz brothers throw a very large number of punches and it’s the accumulation of concussive forces and structural damage that their opponent’s incur that ultimately results in a KO/TKO. Neither of them are “big punchers” or are going to knock most guys out with a single punch, so they’ve adapted their style so they don’t have to. Instead they focus heavily on their cardio/ability to throw large volumes of punches round after round, try to be as accurate as they can be, utilize their reach, and then just let the KO/TKO come as they eventually wear down their opponents down physically and mentally.

Like anything, punching power is a combination of nature and nurture. Nobody is born being able to throw a 95 mph strike on a consistent basis, or throw a 60+ yard perfect touchdown pass, or clean and jerk 3x their bodyweight; all human movements require practicing the skill correctly and repeatedly. But, it is also true that if you we’re not born to be genetically predisposed to excelling at a given athletic event, then no matter how hard you train, you are not going to be reaching the elite level in that event.

As D’Amato said though, that’s not the same thing as saying that you can’t teach people how to improve their punching power. To me anyone who says that is just covering up their lack of knowledge of how to properly teach people how to punch or understanding of proper biomechanics involved in punching.

14

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You can’t teach power. Some guys are born knowing how to throw, some aren’t, and you can’t take a Paulie Malignaggi and turn him into a Tommy Hearns. It just doesn’t happen.

Knockout power has very little to do with any sort of muscular attribute, or deadlifting numbers, or ab strength, or whatever strength and conditioning coaches want you to think. It’s actually the combination of staying loose, knowing how to turn all your weight into a punch, what range to throw from, and where to hit. That combination is what makes for KO’s.

Range is the most under appreciated aspect of that. Guys can’t understand why they don’t KO someone with their 2, but they never put it together that they’re too close and muffling all the power. Or that they’re too far away when they throw their hooks, so they lose that tight coiled-up power you’re supposed to generate.

This happens a lot more in MMA, where even though they’re wearing tiny ass gloves, they rarely know how to punch correctly. [/quote]

well its interesting you mention Hearns.

IIRC, Emanuel Steward stated that Hearns was not a natural puncher, steward taught him how to.

As to whether Hearns already had a genetic propensity that was just being blurred by bad technique before he hooked up with Steward, who knows.

15

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i was always confused how the Diaz boys (in the UFC) knocked people out… their pitter-patter style just didn’t make sense to me. then i saw some pics of a couple friends of mine training with them, and Nate dwarfed several guys that i know to be 6’ and 200 lbs. i think people generally underestimate the mass that they have, and the actual weight behind their punches. so with that being said, i think this helps illustrate how much weight/bone density matter…

[/quote]

I always thought the Diaz brothers were tiny little dudes too. I wondered how they even got to 170 for Nick anyways. Then my friend took a pic with Nick out if Vegas…Holy shit.

Without going crazy in detail as I think there is already quite a bit of substance in this thread. There are a number of factors involved in getting a knockout. Some guys take a punch much better than others and IMO that also varies in degree by what day it is etc.

I am considered to have quite a bit of power in my punches and have a few KO wins, I also have a decent chin, have never been KOed. I have been however knocked silly enough to see purple and fuzzy images and one time at least the guy did not even hit me that hard.

The more you practice targeting, timing and power the better your chances are. Also the more you move and slide the less chance you have of getting knocked out.

16

Great stuff by the posters above!

Mine 2 cents.
Knockout ability is specific skill.Its not about maximal impact force.Turning your punch into something like shot put to produce maximal impact w against someone who can fight is futile.

Think about the skull and brain like wooden box with an egg inside.Now how can you misplace that box to break the egg inside.

You want your punch to come without telegraphing it and you want to rotate the head violently.
How you get your fist into the target is less important than violently shifting your weight upon impact.

Watch a lot of videos of knockouts to get idea what it takes tacticaly,physicaly and psychologicaly to knock people out.You need clear idea of the forces,impact,timing and other elements needed to produce that result.

Knockout punch is icing on the cake.Its not something done in isolation of other things.You have to be aware clearly that the other guy can knock you out as well,so you have to perform that knockout tactic withing a fight-attacking,defending and counterattacking.

Knockout punch is result of settting and distracting someone before the final blow.Its really like an ambush!

B.

17

[quote]Ranzo wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i was always confused how the Diaz boys (in the UFC) knocked people out… their pitter-patter style just didn’t make sense to me. then i saw some pics of a couple friends of mine training with them, and Nate dwarfed several guys that i know to be 6’ and 200 lbs. i think people generally underestimate the mass that they have, and the actual weight behind their punches. so with that being said, i think this helps illustrate how much weight/bone density matter…

[/quote]

I always thought the Diaz brothers were tiny little dudes too. I wondered how they even got to 170 for Nick anyways. Then my friend took a pic with Nick out if Vegas…Holy shit.

Without going crazy in detail as I think there is already quite a bit of substance in this thread. There are a number of factors involved in getting a knockout. Some guys take a punch much better than others and IMO that also varies in degree by what day it is etc.

I am considered to have quite a bit of power in my punches and have a few KO wins, I also have a decent chin, have never been KOed. I have been however knocked silly enough to see purple and fuzzy images and one time at least the guy did not even hit me that hard.

The more you practice targeting, timing and power the better your chances are. Also the more you move and slide the less chance you have of getting knocked out.[/quote]

One’s “chin”/ability to take a clean hard accurate punch is actually something that I think is far more genetically innate than punching ability. But even then anyone can get KO’d if the strike lands clean enough on the right spot at the right time and with sufficient force.

And anyone can decrease their likelihood of getting KO’d through learning good defensive skills, evasive head/body movement, and learning to always try to be in the best possible (which isn’t necessarily the ideal) position at all times.

18

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
speed + mass + accuracy = knockout

[/quote]

100% right on.

while some guys might have a lot of KO’s in their division, it still doesn’t mean that they have the power (speed and mass) to knock out bigger fighters. also, that doesn’t mean that some of the heavyweights have the footwork to set it up a pinpoint shot, either.

while i’m sure all HW boxers/fighters hit with a ton of force, i’ve always felt the guys in the 180-210 area were far more dangerous, because they seemed to have comparable power, but more speed and cardio that enable them to have a more varied attack…

19

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
speed + mass + accuracy = knockout

[/quote]

100% right on.

while some guys might have a lot of KO’s in their division, it still doesn’t mean that they have the power (speed and mass) to knock out bigger fighters. also, that doesn’t mean that some of the heavyweights have the footwork to set it up a pinpoint shot, either.

while i’m sure all HW boxers/fighters hit with a ton of force, i’ve always felt the guys in the 180-210 area were far more dangerous, because they seemed to have comparable power, but more speed and cardio that enable them to have a more varied attack…[/quote]

Agreed.

To me, nothing more dangerous than a middlweight fighter. Big enough to do real damage, but small enough that he can still be fast as fuck and throw combinations.

20

X3. Though I’d probably extend that to 220, maybe 230. Tyson was at his most powerful and dynamic when he was between 215-220. The two hardest punchers that I have ever trained with were around 190-200 lbs in their prime. There are of course the Foreman’s of the world, but usually they don’t have the speed or stamina, which I agree makes the slightly smaller guys more dangerous overall.