I was just put on 5 mg. Androgel last week. First time I have ever used testosterone. My bloodwork came in as follows:
268 - Total Test
2.2 % Free Test
1)How long does it take for the Androgel to kick in? On day 4 and seem to feel more lethargic then before starting it.
2) I have a hypothyroid condition and I’m currently on 125mg of Synthroid. Could have sworn I read somewhere that thyroid conditions affect the absorption rate of Androgel. Is that true?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Give it at least a couple weeks.
If you have suboptimal thyroid function, you may not be a very good absorber. I have read about this from many guys (at a different site). And because of this, they switch to injections.
bigdawg, Thanks for the reply. I had some expectations that when I started on this the mood / lethargy / libido would change right away. I’ve awoken the last several mornings in a huge fog. Today I’ve pretty much been in it all day. Sitting here ready to fall asleep at my desk. I also just found something on another site that said rub it on arms, shoulders and side flanks. I had been rubbing on arms and middle stomach so not sure if that is affecting absorption.
maniac: sends like high estrogen for sure. I’ve been there.
Mid-stomach is not a good place to put it if you have any subcutaneous fat at all. That’s were a lot of aromatase enzyme lives and that’s what converts T to E.
Try the insides of your thighs, insides of your biceps, and shoulders. If you have to find another spot, then flanks, but avoid that if you can, and definitely not on your “Spare Tire”, if you have one.
Hey Maniac,
Now that you are on HRT, your doctor has you on the “wrong” thyroid medication. HRT is infamous for slowing down or stopping the conversion of T4 to T3. No T3, no energy, no absorption of the T gel/creme, etc., etc…
There are studies all over the internet that say so, and it happened to me so I know first hand. IF, I say IF your doctor has an open mind he or she will put your on a blend like Armour, which already has a 4:1 ratio (I think) of T4 to T3. Since T3 gives energy and stimulates the adrenals, T3 is the most important right now to assist in your absorbtion of T.
Of course since most gels/cremes are T-prop, they convert to E rapidly and then really cause you havoc…
Lethargy, no libido, weight gain, want to nap all the time? E and T3 issues in my book.(and life)PM if you want specifics.
KNB
KNB, do you have a link to those studies? I would like to show this to my urologist.
[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
KNB, do you have a link to those studies? I would like to show this to my urologist.[/quote]
I lost my browser history, but I will look to help you out. You might also read: DailyMed
Drug/Laboratory Test Interferences
Androgens may decrease levels of thyroxine-binding globulin, resulting in decreased total T4 serum levels and increased resin uptake of T3 and T4. Free thyroid hormone levels remain unchanged, however, and there is no clinical evidence of thyroid dysfunction.
This is the only one I found tonight. There are many, many more too. Try Google.
Here it is for Cypionate:
Depo-Testosterone
brand of testosterone cypionate injection, USP
PRECAUTIONS
General: Patients with benign prostatic hypertrophy may develop acute urethral obstruction.
Priapism or excessive sexual stimulation may develop. Oligospermia may occur after
prolonged administration or excessive dosage. If any of these effects appear, the
androgen should be stopped and if restarted, a lower dosage should be utilized.
Testosterone cypionate should not be used interchangeably with testosterone propionate
because of differences in duration of action.
Testosterone cypionate is not for intravenous use.
Information for patients: Patients should be instructed to report any of the following:
nausea, vomiting, changes in skin color, ankle swelling, too frequent or persistent
erections of the penis.
Laboratory tests: Hemoglobin and hematocrit levels (to detect polycythemia) should
be checked periodically in patients receiving long-term androgen administration.
Serum cholesterol may increase during androgen therapy.
Drug interactions: Androgens may increase sensitivity to oral anticoagulants. Dosage
of the anticoagulant may require reduction in order to maintain satisfactory therapeutic
hypoprothrombinemia.
Concurrent administration of oxyphenbutazone and androgens may result in elevated
serum levels of oxyphenbutazone.
In diabetic patients, the metabolic effects of androgens may decrease blood glucose
and, therefore, insulin requirements.
Drug/Laboratory test Interferences: Androgens may decrease levels of thyroxine binding
globulin, resulting in decreased total T4 serum levels and increased resin
uptake of T3 and T4. Free thyroid hormone levels remain unchanged, however, and there
is no clinical evidence of thyroid dysfunction.
Funny thing, it says both “yes and no”
T4 meds alone can take people to a state near death. Some docs are against Armour because the drug reps teach them that.
KNB: I was searching for things along the lines of your statement “HRT is infamous for slowing down or stopping the conversion of T4 to T3. No T3, no energy, no absorption of the T gel/creme, etc., etc… There are studies all over the internet that say so, and it happened to me so I know first hand.”
But I honestly didn’t find anything that directly proved that HRT hindered the conversion. I must not have been searching for the right terms.
If you do come across the actual studies again, please post it.
KNB, Thanks alot for the information on Armour. I have to be totally honest that at this point I don’t know if I can talk intelligently about all of this. It came on so fast that I’m still trying to get my hands around all of it (ex. T4 / T3 etc.). I went to the Dr. last Tuesday because I had planned to do a supplement called X-Factor. bodybuilding.com/store/mn/xfactor.html
I wanted a total bloodwork panel done prior to and after so I could see the results and ensure everything was good. After reading around this forum awhile I learned that I needed to ask for TSH, estrodial, test and free test level along with Liver panel, etc. etc. Well I was kinda shocked when my testosterone levels came back at what they did. Basically my Dr. gave me a 5 min. overview and said he needed to put me on Androgel.
With that being said he told me that the numbers on the test aren’t always the indicator. He see’s lots of patients that are out of the range or in the low range that he doesn’t prescribe anything for. He said if they aren’t describing symptoms such as sex issues, ed or lethargy he does nothing. Also he gave me a little speech on HRT saying that Dr’s need to be careful because alot of weight-lifters come in looking for an edge.
With that being said he works out at my gym and sees me there every night so I have the feeling he thinks I’m up to something when that’s really not the case. I’ve never used AAS or prohormones and basically only use your normal supps such as whey powder, creatine, vitamins, etc. I did tell the Dr. that I had lethargy, low sex drive, etc but figured that was from depression meds I was taking. Never thought it had anything to do with testosterone.
At 41 I suddenly became depressed for no reason. It was also around the sametime that they found my thyroid issue. Some of this stuff is starting to be just too coincidental. Anyway at this point I’m just trying to follow his directions since I’m only on day 5 of the medicine. I’m afraid to bring anything else up (Armour) to him at this point.
Probably stupid I know, but until I learn more it’s going to be hard for me to get my points across to him. I have a feeling from reading posts here and on other forums that I’m in for a long ride. I have tons of questions and this over 35 section in T-Nation is very informative. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I appreciate everyone’s input.
[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
maniac: sends like high estrogen for sure. I’ve been there.
Mid-stomach is not a good place to put it if you have any subcutaneous fat at all. That’s were a lot of aromatase enzyme lives and that’s what converts T to E.
Try the insides of your thighs, insides of your biceps, and shoulders. If you have to find another spot, then flanks, but avoid that if you can, and definitely not on your “Spare Tire”, if you have one.[/quote]
bigdawg, After my shower this morning I’m going to take your advice on where to put the gel. I’m in the middle of a clean bulk cycle right now and definitely carrying extra weight around the mid-section, and that’s where I’ve been applying. I definitely appreciate the advice. Are you on Androgel? If so, how much and how effective has it been for you?
maniac: happy to help.
I stopped Androgel over a year ago after being on it for a couple years. Because of the 20 or so BF% I had at the time, I was making plenty of estrogen from it. I went to injections and things are much, much better.
Hey Maniac,
You could always ask to be put on another Thyroid medication, it’s really not a huge deal. Asking for injectable T (and being seen in the gym) is another story right now…
As previously stated, Androgel and all the gels/creams convert more rapidly to E than injectables do, so keeping a watch on the E2 levels is now really important. The extra weight around your middle helps to convert the T to E more rapidly too. You’re kinda “stuck”. Unless you get an AI to stop or minimize the conversion to E2. More E = more body fat, more body fat = more E, it’s a vicious circle until the E2 levels start to go down…
[quote]nc maniac wrote:
I was just put on 5 mg. Androgel last week. First time I have ever used testosterone. My bloodwork came in as follows:
268 - Total Test
2.2 % Free Test
1)How long does it take for the Androgel to kick in? On day 4 and seem to feel more lethargic then before starting it.
2) I have a hypothyroid condition and I’m currently on 125mg of Synthroid. Could have sworn I read somewhere that thyroid conditions affect the absorption rate of Androgel. Is that true?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
[/quote]
You poor bastard. Welcome to Hell.
The 5 grams will be cancelled out by your own body decreasing its output, because your doctor didn’t put you on HCG. He will ignorantly up the dose to 10 grams when the good feelings you’ll soon get go away. You’ll then progress to shots and wonder why nothing works.
Your E2 will shoot up but your doc won’t even be testing for that. You need Arimidex and HCG, but he’ll dismiss those things as ‘pseudo-science’. You’ll soon then believe that all this TRT stuff is a con game invented by money-hungry doctors, when in fact they are simply ignorant.
Yep, welcome to Hell, buddy.
Note: to escape from Hell, read everything written by KSMan on this site.
HeadHunter, I’ve only been on here a short time, but already getting the jist of what you are saying. I hope you can answer some of my questions or at least give me advice on how to proceed. Like I said in an earlier post my Dr. works out at my gym. He is a good guy, but I believe you are right in that he probably doesn’t have alot of knowledge in this arena.
He told me he only has a handful of people on HRT now. I’m a little hesitant to question him at this point after only 5 days. So proceeding ahead can you advise me on some of my questions.
First and foremost will my testicles begin to shrink? I know it may sound stupid, but I never used AAS so I’m clueless about what I’m getting ready to go through.
How long should I give the Androgel to work?
At what point do I introduce the subject of Arimidex and HCG to him?
Thanks in advance.
HH,
You are right once again regarding hell.I hope this one (maniac) can move on to a doctor that understands the difficulty of proper HRT/TRT, and has an open mind about a solution.
As you all know I used to live in the “hell” spot but not anymore. Of course it took me over 6 months to get this doctor and two years before the original good one. Don’t give up hope, and get adex on your own, HCG too.
KSman is the man, btw.
[quote]KNB wrote:
Don’t give up hope, and get adex on your own, HCG too.
[/quote]
Can HCG be purchased like research chemicals? I’ve got Adex, but I have no idea on how to get HCG without a prescription other than going about it illegally which I won’t do.
I’m having a hard time buying the notion that Synthroid adversely affects the gel absorption. I don’t have a thyroid anymore and I take Synthroid. I’m also taking Testim 5g (1 tube daily) along with Arimidex (1mg a week). My T4 and TSH levels are in range now. My total and free T levels are out of range on the high end.
I’ve never heard of this theory before. If there are studies out there I’d like to see them. Anyway, I guess reactions to Synthroid and the gels can vary from one person to the next. For me, it hasn’t been a problem.
[quote]Raw Power wrote:
KNB wrote:
Don’t give up hope, and get adex on your own, HCG too.
Can HCG be purchased like research chemicals? I’ve got Adex, but I have no idea on how to get HCG without a prescription other than going about it illegally which I won’t do. [/quote]
Yes it can be purchased w/o a script and I even found a place. I have a script for my T, and HCG, and adex too. Is it “illegal”, hmmm, if it is for research purposes, no. Otherwise, well maybe. If you have liquid adex, and you’re asking legal questions, you already know the answer…