D:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Pinto wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
lol@ these records are getting beat daily.
i guess you missed the part about Ed Coan deadlifting 901 pounds raw @220
and the only person beating it was Mark Henry, at the Super Heavyweight class by 2 pounds.
let that sink in then tell me how easy it is to break these records. give props where they’re due.
I don’t believe I said “all of these records”. Coan’s 901 pull is peerless and everybody already knows that. But I have witnessed several high-700s squats on a 198s and 220s in wraps. Goggins pulled high 800s in the gym at 242 or 275 on several occasions raw. I’ve heard of Vogelpohl doing the same. Passanella was a local around here in the late 80s, early 90s. I’ve heard stories of him squatting a 1000 in wraps (out of jacks) and pulling high 800s with just a belt in Coffee’s Gym. I’ve heard stories of Matt Dimel doing the same back around the same time. That’s just what I can think of off the top of my head.
My point is not to disparage the these records. They are in the books, they were judged lifts, some done at very high-profile meets under rather strict judging. As such- the record have not been “beat”.
However, considering raw or belts/wraps only competition has attracted a minority of the upper echelon of the powerlifting talent pool since the late 70s (USAPL, USPF, APF, and most of the various splinter orgs are dominated by geared lifting), the population of lifters to draw from for raw records is not what it was in 1975- even though there are probably more meets and lifters than ever before. Does that mean that lifters are weaker than in the 70s? Probably not. It’s just that we are not seeing these raw lifts on platforms becuase raw lifting is a small niche for the sport’s top lifters. As such, many of these records have stood a lot longer than they would have had the sport not moved on to gear three decades ago.
My response was tailored to the comment that referred to the longstanding nature of most of these records. Nothing more- nothing less. If you want to read something else into it, that’s on you.
You can’t set records based on rumors of lifts, regardless of what you heard about so and so.
I really would think that if all these geared guys were breaking long standing raw records in the gym, some would want to do it at a meet to claim the record. Just doesn’t make sense to me.
As for talent pools, you could make the argument that some of the strongest guys go into strongman competitions and could have broken some of these raw and geared records, but what the hell would that prove? They never got on the platform and got white lights, so it means nothing. Maybe if there weren’t Olympic style weightlifting competitions, some of those guys would set equipped records. You should think about that the next time you look over equipped records just so they are in the perspective of a diminished talent pool.
Raw and equipped are 2 different games.
Even if you didn’t intend it, you came off sounding like you don’t think much of raw lifting. There really doesn’t seem to be much other reason for your statement.
On the other side of things, raw records should last longer than equipped records because without technological improvements lifters, past and present, are on a more even ground.
[/quote]
Maybe that’s just it. I don’t see them as two very different things. Almost every lifter I know that is a freak in gear is freak out of gear. By the same token, when I see good raw lifters, I typically see them do well if they cross over (or back) to geared lifting. There’s a reason for that. Geared or raw- they are the same lifts. A 600 lb raw squat to me feels the same as 800 geared squat- it’s heavy, my back hurts, and my nose gushes blood. Again, the issue was not that these records are jokes but rather that these raw records sample a small part of our sport as it has existed since late-70s.
On a totally unrelated note, that picture in your avatar is very familar to me. The tall, gangly guy behind you in the pic (I assume that’s you pulling) is me. That pic was taken at the SPF meet up in Cookeville TN last month. I think we might have talked a minute there. Heh- small world. How’d your day end up?
[quote]Pinto wrote:
On a totally unrelated note, that picture in your avatar is very familar to me. The tall, gangly guy behind you in the pic (I assume that’s you pulling) is me. That pic was taken at the SPF meet up in Cookeville TN last month. I think we might have talked a minute there. Heh- small world. How’d your day end up?
[/quote]
HAH! Wow. Yeah thatâ??s me pulling at the SPF meet. I live south of Nashville. I remember talking to you briefly. Ended up 500/350/550 @220. Just missed my last pull of 575 and only hit my bench opener though.
That is kinda creepy. You always compete in the SPF? Might see you around some time.
any you guys going to the SPF Worlds in October? Pinto?? Doubleduce?? and… what… you didn’t like seeing me in a banana hammock??
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Pinto wrote:
On a totally unrelated note, that picture in your avatar is very familar to me. The tall, gangly guy behind you in the pic (I assume that’s you pulling) is me. That pic was taken at the SPF meet up in Cookeville TN last month. I think we might have talked a minute there. Heh- small world. How’d your day end up?
HAH! Wow. Yeah that�¢??s me pulling at the SPF meet. I live south of Nashville. I remember talking to you briefly. Ended up 500/350/550 @220. Just missed my last pull of 575 and only hit my bench opener though.
That is kinda creepy. You always compete in the SPF? Might see you around some time.[/quote]
Cool. I have usually lifted in the APF, but Jesse has been putting on some good meets pretty close by (I’m in Atlanta) so I’ve done a couple SPF meets in the last year. I’ll probably do that big one in Nashville and the Cell Block meet in December. Give me a shout if see me. My name’s Zak.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
any you guys going to the SPF Worlds in October? Pinto?? Doubleduce?? and… what… you didn’t like seeing me in a banana hammock??:)[/quote]
Ya, man. I’ll be there. All bananas deserve a hammock to rest their weary banana bones…
[quote]Pinto wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
any you guys going to the SPF Worlds in October? Pinto?? Doubleduce?? and… what… you didn’t like seeing me in a banana hammock??
Ya, man. I’ll be there. All bananas deserve a hammock to rest their weary banana bones…[/quote]
cool… i’ll be there with my team as well. We will all be competing on Sunday.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
Pinto wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
any you guys going to the SPF Worlds in October? Pinto?? Doubleduce?? and… what… you didn’t like seeing me in a banana hammock??
Ya, man. I’ll be there. All bananas deserve a hammock to rest their weary banana bones…
cool… i’ll be there with my team as well. We will all be competing on Sunday.
[/quote]
I’ll probably go watch. Currently trying to fill out to a decent 242 so I don’t have any competitions on the schedule.
901 @ 220 is fucking crazy!
Bolton is a pie eating pimp.
[quote]IrishMarc wrote:
901 @ 220 is fucking crazy!
Bolton is a pie eating pimp. [/quote]
that was Coan, not Bolton.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
lol@ these records are getting beat daily.
i guess you missed the part about Ed Coan deadlifting 901 pounds raw @220
and the only person beating it was Mark Henry, at the Super Heavyweight class by 2 pounds.
let that sink in then tell me how easy it is to break these records. give props where they’re due.
Andy Bolton’s pulled like 947 raw.
@ what class?
SHW, like Mark Henry.
But, 901+2 =/= 947
its hard to compare different lifts at different weights, sure we could bust out percentages but in the real world those don’t mean shit.
a 901 @ 220 is pretty fucking good. and its still a record so…
[/quote]
Absolutely, it’s unbelievable. But it’s not only 2lb under the highest ever raw pull, like you claimed 
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Comrade wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
The first and most obvious error is in the deadlift tables. Bolton pull 947 or something along those lines raw. That’s enough to make me skeptical of the rest!! Some serious numbers there tho.
They are only American records. Gathering world records for a definition of lifting that didn’t even really exist until recently, and still doesn’t exist in a lot of big powerlifting countries, would be a daunting task.
Shouldn’t really be “all time” then, should they??
It’s kinda a US thing to think they’re the centre of the world in powerlifting… Like you see people talking on forums about how “powerlifters squat high out of a mono and wear multiply gear” when in fact a tiny % of the worlds powerliftres do… but it’s what they’re exposed to so they assume it’s fact!
I dont agree with that. It was made pretty clear on PLWatch that these were the all-time American records. As for “people talking on forums about how “powerlifters squat high out of a mono and wear multiply gear”” - well, half those people don’t even know what they’re looking at and think they can draw conclusions from a video of kroc taken 100 ft away and from a lower vantage point, or a video of donnie that’s so shaky it looks like it was filmed during an earthquake
It’s kinda an irish thing to think Americans are arrogant … Like you see people talking on forums about how “Americans think they’re the centre of the world in powerlifting” when in fact only a tiny % of americans think that… but it’s what they’re [the irish] exposed to so they assume it’s fact!
…
Ledge. Don’t forget all the U.S feds “world championships”!!!
OK, this thread was dead, but since it’s been resurrected…
There are players from all nations in MLB, the best players from all over the world get signed by them, do you seriously think that the team that wins teh world series doesn’t deserve to be called world champions? One could make a very good argument that the world games equivalent in baseball (I forget the name) is nothing but a fancy all-star tournament. and all-star teams are LAME
and the US loses because half our best players are from other countries.
Exactly, half of MLB is outside the US, how is world series a misnomer?
The best football (soccer?) players in the world all play in Europe. Does that mean that the European Champions League winners should be called world champions?
No, it shouldn’t. Because ONLY teams from Europe can compete.
Just because players from outside Europe compete does not make it the “World Championships”, the same is true of baseball.
The champions league winners shouldn’t be called world champions? What you say? Name me a better club team ANYWHERE in the entire world. Not a country-of-origin all-star team, a club team. Of course they are world champions[/quote]
No, they aren’t. Many club teams have beaten the reigning Champions League winner, some because the champion was using the B-team, some because they outplayed them, some because of other reasons. The FIFA Club World Cup is not always won by the Champions League winner.
While they usually are the best playing team in the world that year, bar none, they are not World Champions, because they haven’t participated and won a World Championship. To me that’s like giving the Olympic Gold to the athlete with the season best result.
Maybe these are not good analogies, but you just can’t disregard the actual act of competing against what should be the best athletes in your sport in the world, and having the talent, determination and luck to win it all.
Bolton did pull 947 raw however these are “American” records I believe.
And without getting into a pissing match over what are the real records, I don’t see anyone hitting these kinds of numbers raw today for the most part.
All you have to do is look at the NERB to get an idea of what most guys are hitting raw.
I don’t know of a single guy walking the face of the planet that can squat 826 @ 242 raw, no knee wraps, like Karwoski did a couple of years ago at that AAU meet. NO ONE. I don’t even think it’s close.
Is there any 181 guy out there pulling just a shade under 800 like Coan did? Not that I know of.
Point is, strength has not really increased that much, IF AT ALL, in the last 40 years. John Kuc and Karwoski would still smoke the majority of “big name” lifters that are walking around today. Matt Kroc is a highly respected guy competing today and he’s never pulled over 800 raw or even close to it. Kuc pulled 870 @ 242. Matt will be competing in the 242’s now, but he’s never going to get close to that raw.
I really like this list because it gives me such great appreciation for those guys and the strength they possessed.
If anything I think most of those guys like Reinhoudt and Kuc and Coan and Karwoski are probably far stronger than the top guys today per weight class. Again, check the NERB as a comparison.
I see raw meets becoming more popular now and think in a couple of years it’ll be right there with equipped lifting.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
lol@ these records are getting beat daily.
i guess you missed the part about Ed Coan deadlifting 901 pounds raw @220
and the only person beating it was Mark Henry, at the Super Heavyweight class by 2 pounds.
let that sink in then tell me how easy it is to break these records. give props where they’re due.
Andy Bolton’s pulled like 947 raw.
@ what class?
SHW, like Mark Henry.
But, 901+2 =/= 947
its hard to compare different lifts at different weights, sure we could bust out percentages but in the real world those don’t mean shit.
a 901 @ 220 is pretty fucking good. and its still a record so…
Absolutely, it’s unbelievable. But it’s not only 2lb under the highest ever raw pull, like you claimed ;)[/quote]
indeed, heavy weights have been pulled, but not from a 220 pounder, at least going from what that list says.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
lol@ these records are getting beat daily.
i guess you missed the part about Ed Coan deadlifting 901 pounds raw @220
and the only person beating it was Mark Henry, at the Super Heavyweight class by 2 pounds.
let that sink in then tell me how easy it is to break these records. give props where they’re due.
Andy Bolton’s pulled like 947 raw.
@ what class?
SHW, like Mark Henry.
But, 901+2 =/= 947
its hard to compare different lifts at different weights, sure we could bust out percentages but in the real world those don’t mean shit.
a 901 @ 220 is pretty fucking good. and its still a record so…
Absolutely, it’s unbelievable. But it’s not only 2lb under the highest ever raw pull, like you claimed
indeed, heavy weights have been pulled, but not from a 220 pounder, at least going from what that list says. [/quote]
FFS I’m not disagreeing with it.
This is a direct quote from you -
"i guess you missed the part about Ed Coan deadlifting 901 pounds raw @220
and the only person beating it was Mark Henry, at the Super Heavyweight class by 2 pounds. "
THAT’S what I’m talking about.
you cant expect me to remember something i said a page ago.
I like raw lifts because it better compares lifters of today than lifters of the past. You still get a good feel for how strong they really were, since you’re doing the exact same thing they were. With gear there have been advances as time went on. This forces new records, but is not fair to the people who spend their lives setting records in the past. After all, isn’t the purpose of a record to compare yourself on even ground with someone in the past?
[quote]Guardian58 wrote:
Bolton did pull 947 raw however these are “American” records I believe.
And without getting into a pissing match over what are the real records, I don’t see anyone hitting these kinds of numbers raw today for the most part.
All you have to do is look at the NERB to get an idea of what most guys are hitting raw.
I don’t know of a single guy walking the face of the planet that can squat 826 @ 242 raw, no knee wraps, like Karwoski did a couple of years ago at that AAU meet. NO ONE. I don’t even think it’s close. [/quote]
nonsense. thompson squatted 855 and got a BS depth call. Siders had just competed in an intl ipf meet 8 days prior.I have no idea whether these are the only two who could do it, but to say that theres no one is intellectually dishonest, and to say its not close is silly.
[quote]Is there any 181 guy out there pulling just a shade under 800 like Coan did? Not that I know of.
Point is, strength has not really increased that much, IF AT ALL, in the last 40 years. John Kuc and Karwoski would still smoke the majority of “big name” lifters that are walking around today. Matt Kroc is a highly respected guy competing today and he’s never pulled over 800 raw or even close to it. Kuc pulled 870 @ 242. Matt will be competing in the 242’s now, but he’s never going to get close to that raw. [/quote]
Dont disregard the effect that a geared squat of over 1000 could have on his raw pull. Im not saying 870 is a number kroc could def hit, but i would expect his dl to be higher in a meet in which he did all his lifts unequipped
[quote]mldj wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Comrade wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Hanley wrote:
The first and most obvious error is in the deadlift tables. Bolton pull 947 or something along those lines raw. That’s enough to make me skeptical of the rest!! Some serious numbers there tho.
They are only American records. Gathering world records for a definition of lifting that didn’t even really exist until recently, and still doesn’t exist in a lot of big powerlifting countries, would be a daunting task.
Shouldn’t really be “all time” then, should they??
It’s kinda a US thing to think they’re the centre of the world in powerlifting… Like you see people talking on forums about how “powerlifters squat high out of a mono and wear multiply gear” when in fact a tiny % of the worlds powerliftres do… but it’s what they’re exposed to so they assume it’s fact!
I dont agree with that. It was made pretty clear on PLWatch that these were the all-time American records. As for “people talking on forums about how “powerlifters squat high out of a mono and wear multiply gear”” - well, half those people don’t even know what they’re looking at and think they can draw conclusions from a video of kroc taken 100 ft away and from a lower vantage point, or a video of donnie that’s so shaky it looks like it was filmed during an earthquake
It’s kinda an irish thing to think Americans are arrogant … Like you see people talking on forums about how “Americans think they’re the centre of the world in powerlifting” when in fact only a tiny % of americans think that… but it’s what they’re [the irish] exposed to so they assume it’s fact!
…
Ledge. Don’t forget all the U.S feds “world championships”!!!
OK, this thread was dead, but since it’s been resurrected…
There are players from all nations in MLB, the best players from all over the world get signed by them, do you seriously think that the team that wins teh world series doesn’t deserve to be called world champions? One could make a very good argument that the world games equivalent in baseball (I forget the name) is nothing but a fancy all-star tournament. and all-star teams are LAME
and the US loses because half our best players are from other countries.
Exactly, half of MLB is outside the US, how is world series a misnomer?
The best football (soccer?) players in the world all play in Europe. Does that mean that the European Champions League winners should be called world champions?
No, it shouldn’t. Because ONLY teams from Europe can compete.
Just because players from outside Europe compete does not make it the “World Championships”, the same is true of baseball.
The champions league winners shouldn’t be called world champions? What you say? Name me a better club team ANYWHERE in the entire world. Not a country-of-origin all-star team, a club team. Of course they are world champions
No, they aren’t. Many club teams have beaten the reigning Champions League winner, some because the champion was using the B-team, some because they outplayed them, some because of other reasons. The FIFA Club World Cup is not always won by the Champions League winner.
While they usually are the best playing team in the world that year, bar none, they are not World Champions, because they haven’t participated and won a World Championship. To me that’s like giving the Olympic Gold to the athlete with the season best result.
Maybe these are not good analogies, but you just can’t disregard the actual act of competing against what should be the best athletes in your sport in the world, and having the talent, determination and luck to win it all.[/quote]
Well now we’re getting to a point where my lack of knowledge on soccer is hindering the conversation. So there IS a tournament of ALL the club teams in the world (or at least, the ones who qualify) to declare a world champion? Because in that case, then yes, the winner of that tournament should be the world champion. Do I understand that correctly?
I dont think it’s perfectly analogous tho, since there’s no tournament for ALL the club baseball teams in the world, so barring that, yes, i do think the mlb champs should be considered world champions
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
nonsense. thompson squatted 855 and got a BS depth call. Siders had just competed in an intl ipf meet 8 days prior.I have no idea whether these are the only two who could do it, but to say that theres no one is intellectually dishonest, and to say its not close is silly.
[/quote]
Maybe you should take a class in reading comprehension. How much do Siders and Donnie Thompson weigh??? Karwoski weighed 240 pounds for that 826. So the only thing silly is you bringing up two guys WELL over 300 pounds and lumping them in with a guy who is 240 and still clearly out squatting them raw.
Kroc hit his best deadlift of just over 800 in a meet where he did not squat, or took a token squat (one or the other). And that was with a deadlifting suit on.
Know what you are talking about before you start calling people silly. Mkay?