Advice to Get Bigger Needed

Training Bodybuilding
41

You keep misunderstanding me friendo.

I wasn’t suggesting that this trainer just go up to the poor kid and be like EAT MORE DUH!

Obviously he needs instruction in that area but i don’t believe the place is to start is the technical stuff.

You know what got me gaining weight when I first started? A simple plan based around protein meals 6 times a day.

2 protein drinks a day. 2 “sandwich” meals a day. 2 meat and pasta (or eggs) meals a day.

As simple as that, and yes I did have to count my calories.

Did I get fat? No.

Could I have eaten better and done more cardio and stayed leaner? Absolutely, but I would have gotten no where at ALL if i had BEGAN my bulking by breaking down my macronutrients and timing my carbs and all of that.

I’m not saying never do it, and I’m not saying its useless. I’m saying its the wrong place to BEGIN.

42

Your plan looks great and just what this kids needs to hear but more importantly what he needs to do.

It was you who said “EAT MORE” and pretty much left it at that. That’s what gave me the wrong impression I guess.

By the way, to anyone at all familiar with nutrition and writing diets, those macro breakdowns can be done in your head in a minute or two.

I don’t want to give you the impression that I’m sitting here with a calculator figuring out exactly how many grams of what to eat, how many minutes apart his meals need to be etc. That’d be silly just like you said.

I just think, and you probably agree, that MOST 18 year olds cannot be expected to do what you did. Which like I said, is a great way to go about getting bigger.

43

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Skeewats and Milk.

Deadlifts, Bench Press, and Rows too. [/quote]

x2!!!

I’m in week 3 of squats & milk and I’m noticing great gains in size and strength. He’ll hate you for making him do it, but you can’t argue with beastly results. It’s always been tough for me to gain size, even eating enough of the right stuff (my body has always preferred to pack insulation instead of muscle) and squats and milk is the only thing that has worked noticeably for size.

The other thing you might look into is the Anabolic Diet (Metabolic Diet/Metabolic Solution…it goes my many names). There’s a huge thread on it here. :slight_smile:

44

Absolutely, i mean what i did was count every calorie i took in. I had to, I just wasn’t able to naturally eat enough to gain weight.

It took 20 minutes out of each day and it is exactly what I would recommend to this trainer for his client if i were going to suggest anything.

a meal plan doesn’t have to be complicated, and i don’t believe anyone has ever gone wrong organizing a diet around meat, milk, pasta, eggs, and veggies. and once the kid manages to gain his first 5-10lbs after a few months, then you might want to look things over and see if there are any glaringly obvious flaws in his macronutrients or anyting like that.

But can we at least agree that for a beginner looking to gain weight for the first time, CALORIES is where we need to begin, and the rest must follow after that?

This is all i was getting at.

45

[quote]derek wrote:
mr popular wrote:
Who cares about his macronutrient breakdown and all of this mess…

He needs to eat more CALORIES. PERIOD.

Yeah, it’s a stupid ldea to keep track of how much protein you’re taking in per day compared to carbs per day. And it’s also stupid to know how much fat is in (or not in)your diet!

Geez, I wish I knew as much as your last statement shows you know about nutrition.

I’m just going to eat an entire box of Corn Flakes now so I can get HUGE!

[/quote]

Frosted Flakes rule!

46

[quote]derek wrote:
mr popular wrote:

The fact of the matter is, if this kid isn’t gaining weight it is because he isn’t consuming enough calories and that is the FIRST issue that needs to be addressed.

You can up his protein intake and cycle his carbs and get the perfect ratios for everything but its going to mean absolutely nothing until you significantly up the calories he is taking in. In fact, making sure his fats are perfect and his carbs are timed just right and he’s getting in 200 grams of full amino acid chained proteins and every technical diet trick you want to throw at him… it may help a percent or two but this is not where the main FOCUS needs to be at.

Did I say lets forget sensible nutritional practices and eat 5000 calories a day worth of sugar and saturated fat? No.

Does this 18 year old kid who has trouble putting on weight need to be timing and scrutinizing his every carbohydrate, and getting the perfect proportion of fats into his meals? No. He just needs to eat enough good wholesome food to grow on for a while.

It’s as though you believe someone who is training hard and staying active is going to get sloppy and fat on a bulk because all their pasta wasn’t whole-grain, and they didn’t regulate their daily fat intake…

Come on guys. lets use our heads a little please.

Try telling the typical 18 year old to “eat more” in an attemp to get bigger. He MAY eat more, he may not.

More of what?

More protein?

More waffles?

And how the hell do you know what your lacking if you don’t know what your eating in the first place?

Do you think an 18 year old that can’t figure out how to lift weights by himself can be told to “eat more” and he’ll know what steps to take next?

“Eat more protein”? Does that mean he’s adding 20 grams per day to the 60 grams he was eating before? Or does it mean adding 50 grams to the 180 grams he was eating before?

How do you know?

And who said anything about scruitinizing ANYTHING? All I’m talking about is getting an idea of where he’s at so you know where to go next.

Blindly telling a kid that has no clue about what to eat in the first place to “eat more” is just asking for trouble not to mention a recipe for failure unless he somehow has a revelation to eat more steak tips, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, tuna, chicken, whole milk etc. instead of Doritos and Coke.

Trust me, having a mature, professional ADULT pay good money for you to tell them EXACTLY what to eat and when is no guarantee that they’ll do it. You can pretty much assume telling a kid to “eat more” wont get the job done either.

[/quote]

Its one thing to have all the knowledge necessary to get the job done but the problem for the vast majority of people is the tenacity/commitment/will to actually do it. A lot of people know that they need to exercise, stop smoking, you name it… but dont do a damn thing about it! Knowledge aint shit unless its applied.

47

I have not read this whole thread so I might have missed something on here. However, I am going to state something from much of what I read.

How come no one has asked WHAT KIND OF PROGRAM this guy is on?!!! If you are speaking of SERIOUS SIZE, then put him on a program that has serious size as its main goal! A bodybuilding program! There are many strength training routines that can have one stay at the same bodyweight with increasing strength! Eric Cressey is not huge and I am not insulting him by saying this. But the weights that he puts up are huge.

Compound lifts such as squats, deadlifts, chinups, rows and the like should be the corner stone of any bodybuilding program worth its salt. But its not all about including these exercises! You need a program that lends itself to gaining size, a bodybuilding one. Are we talking about max singles here? Max triples? What range is he increasing his lifts in?

Granted, some men (ie: Kirk Karwoski, Glen Chabot, Doug Young, Ryan Kenelly, and a few others) have managed to have the look of an offseason bodybuiler through pure strength training/powerlifting (primarily low volume, high intensity) but they are rare!

I disagree with Mr. Popular. Its not all about calories. Its also about macronutrients for several reasons. Boatloading on calories indiscrimately is not a good idea for several reasons. If one has TOO HIGH of a protein intake (yeah, this is possible) it can actually have a detrimental effect on total kcal intake secondary to deamination and transamination of amino acids. Carbs are far more anabolic than protein and one would not want a high fat diet (ie: >30%) for size.

I do not think its funny that the people primarily involved in nutritional counseling are registered dietitians (RD). I happen to be one. I have also trained people. Your average person or trainer is most likely not skilled in medical nutrition therapy (MNT). Any dietitian worth their salt knows a shitload about 1) drug/nutrient interactions and 2) the treatment or worsening of diseases through dietary intake. Perhaps some, but most trainers do not know about a wide variety of disease states and how nutrition affects them for good or for better.

Has any trainer ever written a SOAP note? Do they know how to interpret lab values? Do they ask if the person has any diseases or are taking any medications that can interfere with foods? I can name several examples off the top of my head just to show that its not all about telling people about carbs, pro, and kcal and why trainers should practice within their scope of practice.

-Someone takin MAOI drugs should be on a low tyramine diet.
-Someone using the drug Isoniazid should be supplementing with B6.
-Someone using the drug Flagyl should have NO alcohol.
-A person taking the drug Coumadin should avoid boatloading on Vitamin K.
-People with renal disease should avoid high phosphorous, potassium, and sodium foods and may need a protein RESTRICTION if their BUN/Cre was too high.
There are LOADS of other serious examples.
I do NOT say this to brag AT ALL. But above is just some examples off the top of my head as to why people who are not nutritionists or RDs should watch when they give nutritional advice since a client is most likely not going to tell in the middle of a workout “hey, I am very depressed and take an MAOI” or "hey, I got kidney disease) or any similar statement. So, one could get in trouble and this trouble is not just linked to getting body composition results.

AGAIN, this was NOT meant to brag.

And also, put him on a size program if he wants size.

48

Another good example would be the case of diabetics, who seem to be an evergrowing population. A good dietitian-some are actually diabetic educators (CDEs) would know how much carbs to take with corresponding insulin doses and what time of the day to train.

49

Those are some great points there Bricknyce!

I’ve been “forced” do do the very type of research you mention. I have a client who’s three weeks away from a kidney transplant due to IGA Nephropathy and the amount of detail and care that must be taken to improve his diet is incredible.

I’ve got access to the mountain of paperwork he was given by the Nutritionist on his transplant team and have been trying to work up a plan that takes into account all the minerals he needs to be wary of etc., etc.

It’s a LOT of very important information and lots of care must be given considering that we’re trying to keep him off dialysis.

50

I did not start to gain muscle in large amounts (like people say wow you lift weights) till I changed not just what I ate but when…

I call it my snap count…

2 hours before going to the gym I eat a very clean protein meal: Like grilled chicken with asparagus with amino tabs

1 hour before the gym I eat a small protein shake with water.

1/2 hour before the gym I take a large amount of aminos (tabs)

At the gym I take more aminos (liquid)

1/2 way though my work out I take more aminos both tabs and liquid…

At home right after the gym I take a shake made with 3 raw egg whites 1 whole and protein, creatine, glutamine.

1 or 2 hours after my work out I eat a meal (high protein, low carb, mod fat.

around 1/3 or my daily calories are centered around my work out…

I work out late in the day around 7 or 8…

Solid
get 9 hours of sleep 8 at night and 1hour nap in the day…

51

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I disagree with Mr. Popular. Its not all about calories. Its also about macronutrients for several reasons. Boatloading on calories indiscrimately is not a good idea for several reasons. If one has TOO HIGH of a protein intake (yeah, this is possible) it can actually have a detrimental effect on total kcal intake secondary to deamination and transamination of amino acids. Carbs are far more anabolic than protein and one would not want a high fat diet (ie: >30%) for size.
[/quote]

I never said it was all about calories, nor did i EVER recommend “boatloading on calories”.

In fact i think i made my point very clear in my last few posts, maybe you should re-read them.

52

I’ll re-read them.

Sorry about that. Go through the posts too fast at times.

I always liked your postings, Mr. P.

53

Brick,
How is deamination and oxidation going to be detrimental to kcal intake? Cy Willson has an article on here about protein cycling that debunks some arguments like this.

In my experience, protein is far more anabolic than carbs. I prefer low carbs, but I like to use some post-workout and otherwise just as many as I need to not feel like shit (which generally isn’t much).

And I’m always pushing 50-60% fat.

54

Hey man thanks for the invitation to T-Cell. Much appreciated.

As a dietician I definitely try to read your posts and get that side of things, seeing as how most of the people on T-Nation aren’t really professionals, nor do they have much experience.

You’re ahead of me for now, but I think we can agree on most of the core issues in bodybuilding. =)

55

[quote]derek wrote:
Those are some great points there Bricknyce!

I’ve been “forced” do do the very type of research you mention. I have a client who’s three weeks away from a kidney transplant due to IGA Nephropathy and the amount of detail and care that must be taken to improve his diet is incredible.

I’ve got access to the mountain of paperwork he was given by the Nutritionist on his transplant team and have been trying to work up a plan that takes into account all the minerals he needs to be wary of etc., etc.

It’s a LOT of very important information and lots of care must be given considering that we’re trying to keep him off dialysis.[/quote]

Yes, it does get annoying when you have to restrict phosphorous, sodium, and potassium and sometimes protein amount. Its a very boring diet.

56

So I think it is safe to say that I tell me client to more of the right stuff? lol

As I stated to Joe, I am not a qualified nutritionist and I tell my clients this prior to beginning our training.

I am going to tell him to see a qualified Nutrionist who will be able to help him with this matter

Best move you think?

57

For now i think that is best… maybe also get yourself a basic nutritional advisor qualification… it looks better if you can provide the basics then refer them on for more detail when it gets out of your insurance i think??

Joe

58

We could really use the training program he’s running as well as the amount of calories he’s supposed to be taking in. Either could be the culprit in this case. Usually IMO it tends to be the calories though–many people seriously underestimate the amount of calories they need to gain. Especially ectomorphs and swimmer/endurance athletes. Their bodies are used to burning so many calories that sometimes it’s a real chore.

I would search for John Berardi’s Massive Eating articles to get an idea of how much he might actually need. You don’t need to subscribe to Berardi’s food combinations theory to do that. In fact, I don’t think John even subscribes to them any more in a strict sense.

Plug his numbers in the calculator. You’ll most likely be surprised at what come up. Like really surprised.

Personally, I think 175g of protein to be the minimum acceptable limit for protein intake. Maybe 156g or so is fine for this weight, but he wants to be bigger, not the same weight. I usually match my protein intake to my goal weight, not my current weight, when gaining.

And yes, it’s quite true that most people don’t want to hear that you have to accept some fat gain to gain muscle.

On the plus side, you should tell him it’s ridiculously easy to cut the fat off. It takes, what, a matter of weeks to cut fat as opposed to months upon months to put on lean mass?

59

I get almost as much protein in my pwo meal as his client gets all day.